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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Please fix the bugs in a DX8 version as well.

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heartbone
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 08:28
What is the advantage in forcing DBPro users to Direct X9?

I intend a serious discussion. I am sure that there are LOGICAL reasons for the forced change.

I assume that it will allow graphical features that can not be done in hardware using DX8. These must be some wonderful features. I'd like to know the total pros. I KNOW many cons.

Please consider that we have bought a DX8 development product and have yet to receive one that actually works on many DX8 compliant cards that it should work with.
The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
IanM
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 10:30
1. Shaders
2. Um ...

Actually, there are probably other reasons too, except I can't think of them
MrTAToad
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 10:51
You can set the refresh rate of FSEX

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 11:03
But some people will not use DX9.

My system works perfectly well now, it has a decent benchmark score so i am happy.

DV9 kills the edge of my machine brining the benchmark score down.]

I got my PC when DBPro came out, so it is the correct spec for it. So why should i be forced to get new graphics card and new memory for sommething that is the same age as my comp?

I understand the new featers are needed, but until DX9 comes mainstream cant DX8 also be supported? Cannot be too hard. But what do i know, i am just a user until U5 comes then i gotta wait 3 months for enough £££ to get new hardware, thanks for that.

So my planed time of 2 months DBProing will not happen after all.

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
haggisman
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 11:10
So basically the only reason you aren't upgrading to DX 9 is because you are worried what will happen to your benchmark scores? Seems a little bit like a "whoop-de-do" issue.

project: light/obscurance mapper (85% done)
Glennyboy
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 11:21
Never saw the point of benchmarks. I mean, what difference, in real terms, does DX9 make to your machine? I know that on mine, after installing DX9, I couldn't percieve any difference in the games I played. Sure, maybe the benchmark score was lower, but if I can't tell without actually running the benchmark test, I would file the difference as "negligable".

Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 11:25
haha, ok DX9 killed 20FPS off my games and uses lots more RAM.

20FPS is a LOT

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 11:33
from what i understand they're Extending DirectX9 support not replacing the DirectX 8.1 System with 9 ... apart from anything else if they were to completely replace 8.1 with 9 they'd have to recode over half the engine as alot of the functions have changed in how they work and names, it isn't a simple case of changing the libraries.

Althought everyone really should be using DirectX9 by now,i can understand the reservations and if the team isn't setting up an #ifndef setup for functions to use DirectX9 where possible then i think it would be interesting to understand why.
And to be honest i'm still more worried about the core functionality than extending abilities that we could extend ourselves far easier if we just have a fully intergrated pointer system, proper engine access through the SDK, Stable Global/Local definitions, extended Type setup.
i mean direct access to the LPDIRECT3D and LPDIRECT3DDEVICE and we can setup anything we wanted conserning the engine as you can as good as get anything you want with those two pointers in the Dx instance.

But i wouldn't see this as a move to DirectX9 but more of an extension to include it

I pride myself that i don't kill...
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IanM
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 15:25
Actually, from what I understood from Lee's diary, he has changed over to DX9 - there isn't that much difference to the interfaces between 8.1 and 9, so it didn't take long.

The emails I've received from Lee over the past few days tell me he's fixed the array handling and local/global scope issues. I don't know about other issues, coz he was replying to my bug reports.

I'll be adding a bit more to my interface stuff to allow access to internals (D3D and Device) when I see what's been done to the core libs - I'll have a good idea of it from the BETA, whenever that is.
heartbone
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 16:32
Shaders???????!!! Is that ALL??

Is DX9 going to be a requirement or not?

It could be the difference between someone trying out my product or not. My programs won't be using shader functions in the forseeable future.

I like MILLIONS of other Windows users have NOT needed to upgrade to DX9 and won't without good reason.

I do so detest planned obsolescence.

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
Rob K
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 16:41
I don't know why the requirement for DX9 really bothers people. All my GFX cards, even my old ones cope with DX9 quite happily, and none have experienced any note worthy performance changes.

Blitz users also experienced another problem which occurs as a result of staying in the past. Driver updates are written primarily with DX9 in mind, so DX7 / DX8 programs may experience performance hits with newer drivers.

Off the top of my head:

1) Shaders
2) New driver compatibility
3) Improved reliability of DX9

The change has already been made, there can be no turning back.

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MrTAToad
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 16:44
There cerainly isn't anything wrong with DX9.0a...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Beta1
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 16:45
Oh get a grip people and cut all this "My users wont be upgrading to DX9" crap.

When most games start requiring DX9 people will upgrade, just like they did when we hit 8, and 7, and .......

Glennyboy
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 16:57
Quote: "haha, ok DX9 killed 20FPS off my games and uses lots more RAM.

20FPS is a LOT"


Yes, yes it is.

Whenever a new version of DirectX comes along I always, always, without fail, hear horror stories about people having to reinstall their systems and so on because it made such a terrible mess. Unless these people keep hitting the reset button mid-install, or have super-non-standard hardware that isn't DirectX compatible with, I don't know what they do to their systems. But if all these horror stories held any weight, we'd all still be using DirectX3 for fear of wrecking our systems.

When games start demanding DirectX9 be installed, try asking the publisher for a DX8 compatible version, same way everyone's asking Bamber.

Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 17:49 Edited at: 25th Jun 2003 17:50
hey i am not saying DX9 is crap, it is great.

But i have a system that works well with DX8.

I asked my mates (about 20 of em, all play games loads) and none of em have DX9 and their PCS are 2+ years old (with some upgrades).

Thats my possible market, so now after saving for a DBPro bundle, i now find it was all for nothing, and i gotta wait even longer to get a PC that will run it. I tried DX9 just a few days ago and started playing MOH:AA, it crashed, first time in 3 weeks. So DX8 is back and it works [YAY]

Ok, so now i got a choice, Buggy DX8 totally compatible DBPro or keep me money for a new PC.

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 17:54
Quote: "I don't know why the requirement for DX9 really bothers people"


perhaps because DirectX9 is a 35Mb download from either the slow Microsoft Server or elsewhere.
There is also the fact that not even DirectX9.0a is as stable as DirectX 8.1 ... nor is it installed as standard within WinXP

Also Linux Winex has only just got DirectX 8.1 which means any Linux users who want to use DarkBASIC Pro will have to use 1.04.1 only
I also don't understand the point in upgrading them, although yes the interfaces are similar ... they still different, most have either one extra or one less command - so although you don't have to change much you still have to change almost every command. And it isn't just a case of changing the Device setup or something but going into each and slightly changing the setup.
This could cause even more bug than were there before, it would make more sense just to add it as an expansion ... so if you compile on a DirectX 9 machine you can choose the DirectX 9 or 8.1 Interface but that you don't require DirectX 9 just to use.

If he is expanding the shaders i hope that for this effort he is expanding them to include HLSL entirely as well as the full Shader Interface as well as the whole FVF Interface.

but still ya'll know what i think about all of this upgrading before making sure the core is airtight (to me just seems like bad programming)

I pride myself that i don't kill...
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heartbone
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 18:24
Rob K 3) Improved reliability of DX9
Raven There is also the fact that not even DirectX9.0a is as stable as DirectX 8.1

Which is it?

DirectX9 is a 35Mb download Really? I use dial up and the biggest download that I ever attempted is 20MB. 35MB for a DX update? That's totally crazy. No way. Too much Microsoft macroslop.

Along with at least one other user (a forum moderator here at that), I will abandon all DBPro development to use another programming language (such as Python) *IF* DBPro executables REQUIRE users to have DX9 installed. I understand the rough edges of complex compiler development and I readily forgive the slow road to full implementation of DarkBASIC Professional functionality. But a new DX9 *requirement* would be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
haggisman
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 18:35
Well goodbye Heartbone...

project: light/obscurance mapper (85% done)
Drakportalen
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 18:54
I agree with Beta1

Quote: "Oh get a grip people and cut all this "My users wont be upgrading to DX9" crap.

When most games start requiring DX9 people will upgrade, just like they did when we hit 8, and 7, and ......."


If a user don't download your product because of DX9 then he wasn't really engaged in the product from the begining. There are more important things that ofects the person to download your game. 90% of that is the quality of you product. And shaders can lift your grafic to other standards (if they are well used at a right way)

www.drakportalen.dot.nu
empty
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 19:01 Edited at: 25th Jun 2003 19:01
Well, it's unlikely that there'll be a hyped top title written in DBpro any time soon. But there'll be shareware games. Games that ordinary users- non-hardcore-gamers- play. These people usually don't have up-to-date graphics cards nor DirectX 9.0a. And they won't update their systems just to play a little game once in a while.

Ogres have layers.
Drakportalen
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 19:01
Often you get the latest DX version when you buy a PC magasin with a demo CD with games on. DX9 is taking it to another level. What if I said 8 years ago that I won't develope games in Win 95 envoirment. And that I will use Win 3.11 and QBasic?! If you wan't to make games that can at least almost make up to those that you buy in the store made by proffesional studios. Why deny evolution?

www.drakportalen.dot.nu
heartbone
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 19:07
Drakportalen:

1) If I must D/L and install a 35 MB update that may adversely affect other parts of my system just to check out such a program, then I would be very reluctant to 'engage' the product.

2) When most games start requiring DX9 people will upgrade For now most people have not upgraded. I want my programs to be available to be used immediately by the maximum number of people now, not in the future.

If you are a gamer and not a developer then the importance of these points dealing with maximizing a target audience may escape you, but as a developer I must consider these factors before committing to a development effort.

beta1's remark is just what Bill Gates likes and needs to manage the herd.

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 19:10 Edited at: 25th Jun 2003 19:11
164237 KB for DX9

Also i would like to know if Windows XP comes with DX9. I would think not, until the hardware becomes avaliable mainstream to run it.

I can understand as Raven said extending to use DX9, not a total DX9 nececity.

Now i can got out and buy some other software. VS.net or BB3D, hard choice, gotta consult me Dad as to if he has VS.net already.

[edit]

Games that support DX9 only support it through the options pannel. Like an option to turn shaders on.

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
heartbone
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 19:10
haggisman so you KNOW for sure that DX9 is a REQUIREMENT to run DBP Patch5 exes?
empty exactly.
Drakportalen Planned obsolescence is not evolution.

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The more you know, the more you see.
heartbone
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 19:13
Martyn Pittuck 164237 KB for DX9 surely you jest.

I think that WinXP comes with DX8.1 So they would have to upgrade also? I wouldn't just to play some shareware game.

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 19:14
Quote: "Actually, from what I understood from Lee's diary, he has changed over to DX9 - there isn't that much difference to the interfaces between 8.1 and 9, so it didn't take long."


The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 19:15
I got the d/l size from the MS website

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
Beta1
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 19:20
I prefer to think of my remark as pragmatic and realistic.

I dont think you'll be waiting very long for the first DX9 required games to start appearing anyway.

If your a developer I suggest that you need to be a little more forward looking and develop for what your target market will be not what it is now.

If we all took this approach we would still be trying to get things to run in dos.

Dreamora
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 19:45
DX9 is about 16mb large
if you look for the DX9 SDK then its your fault

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 20:42
Windows98/WindowsMe/Windows2000/WindowsXP Retail - 32Mb
WindowsXP/Windows2000 Retail - 16Mb
WebSetup for All Windows - 236Kb
Windows98/Me/2000/XP SDK Retail & Debug - 86Mb

WindowsXP comes with DirectX 8.1
DirectX9 has known Windows98 problems
Winex only Supports Upto DirectX 8.1

DirectX9 download DOES NOT include the 9.0a patch which is a further 16Mb (230kb WebSetup) whatever Windows

You could possible includes Redist WebSetup of DirectX9 for users, however i'm not sure how many would sit there for 4-45mins waiting to download something to play a game which might not be all that good. As for expecting DirectX9 based games, yet they will be trickling into the market over the next 6months however like with DirectX 8.1 not everyone will actually be purchasing a game with it on the CD - that aside those who've bought DBP already when they reinstall thier HDDs they'll also have to download DirectX9 again which is ontop of the Patch/Update.

For a Broadband user, 24Mb isn't really a big deal ... but for a Dialup user that is the better part of an hour perhaps 2 depending on the connection speed.

I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason
haggisman
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 21:06
Who wants to bet Heartbone will still be here in August even though Dbpro would be DX9...

project: light/obscurance mapper (85% done)
enablerbr
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 21:13
hands up all those who wished wheels were still square.

Terabyte
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 21:27
not me does

Is DX9 free?

Reset
Misanthrope
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 21:45
I dunno...all this "Get with the program, DX9 is the holiest of holies!" stuff isn't doing it for me.

I've been around the DB scene since v1.08 and all I've seen are some talented people making games that are extremely impressive...for something made in DarkBASIC. None of it compares to an equivalent "pro-quality" game in speed, graphics, or bells and whistles. Don't flame me, it's an ugly truth. Something that impresses the pants off a fellow DB coder isn't gonna mean anything to somebody who's a total user. They're just gonna say, "So what? It doesn't look as good as (whatever)".

DB's terrific for making great little shareware games and useful 3D apps. You know, some light, fun, and pretty-looking stuff to amuse cube farmers everywhere at a temptingly low price? But not the latest gee-whiz FPS, MMORPG, or galaxy-spanning uberspacesimulator.

I don't mind that at all. I like making silly little games that are mighty easy on the eyes and fun to play. There's a market for it, but that market isn't one of hardcore gamers with extraordinarily impressive hardware. I just can't see asking a cube farmer or housewife (who may not actually have any so-called "real" games) to install DX9.0a on their office or home machine powered by a Trident Blade 3D with 8MB of shared memory just to play, for instance, 3D Pac-Man.

That's the same market who buy $400 PCs with integrated everything. They don't care about the difference between a floppy and a CD-R, they just want stuff to work. That's one reason I'm even more firmly convinced to stay with DBC1.13, because it's just fine for the silly little games I do.

So I guess my point is...if your market isn't likely to have DX9 and all the fancy bells and whistles under the hood, don't use DBPro. But if you want to aim for the high-performance gamer market with a fully-fledged game of whatever genre you like, then DBPro's a better development choice.

-Misanthrope
heartbone
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 21:53
Thank you Raven.

If as Raven asserts, DX9 truly has Win98 issues, then it is a XP product only. Ergo DBPro binaries will be XP compatible only. :-s

Windows 98SE is the last Windows OS that I will ever buy for a desktop PC. So haggisman I guarantee that I won't be a DBPro developer if the DX9 requirement is a fact.

beta1 what is realistic and pragmatic is that I have a working multiplayer (LAN, NET, MODEM, and SERIAL connections) 2D tank game finished and waiting for the compiler to be fixed so the compiled binary module that I want to distribute is compatible with todays systems, not next years.

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The more you know, the more you see.
heartbone
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 22:01
Unfortunately Misanthrope DBC 1.13 is not compatible with XP. My DBC INTERSHIP program runs flawlessly under 98, but seems like a buggy piece of crapola under XP. If DBS were conscientious there would be an update by now to fix that compatibility problem, but like M$ they don't want to support their "old" software (which is still being sold at retail as "new") because they feel there is more money to be made by supporting DBPro only. (Screw the DBC users is the message that I receive.)

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
MrTAToad
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 22:26
Why stay with 98 when XP is so much better ?

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Rob K
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 22:52
DBC DOES work fine with XP, it used to crash left right and centre with XP, but once I upgraded my GFX drivers, it worked fine.

Most users I know have DX9 installed anyway. This "my customers won't upgrade" lark is nonsense. I know a few people who I gave DBP apps to who only had DX7, when I explained what DX8 was, and that it was an "essential upgrade", they were all quite happy. You can get the latest version of DX off of any game magazine.

Also, DX 9 incorporates DX8 and DX7 drivers, so performance / compatibility of old games will not be affected. Certainly, I can never recall a situation where a game failed to work after updating DX.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_103.zip
heartbone
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 23:02 Edited at: 25th Jun 2003 23:08
MrTAToad Why stay with 98 when XP is so much better?

You are kidding right?

Windows XP/Windows 98 Matchup
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/evaluation/whyupgrade/wxpvswin98.asp

Common Windows 98 Tasks Are Easier with Windows XP
http://www.microsoft.com/WindowsXP/pro/evaluation/whyupgrade/sidebyside/default.asp

These reasons are so lame. If this is the best rationale that they can find, it is sad indeed.

Besides MrTAToad there's the small matter of $200 just to access these "benefits".

Please guys, stop making excuses for M$ greed and arrogance. XP is unnecessary unless companies like DBS make it necessary. I am starting to believe that DBS/Lee is actually somehow being controlled by M$. The recent DBS decisions certainly do favor the M$ corporate policies.

Rob K I will go back and investigate what you say about DBC/XP compatibility. If I find the trick to making DBC work with XP, and DBP is truly going to be DX9 only, then that is the way that I must go to produce and deliver my three in work multiplayer games.
Also you must have missed Martyn's post: I tried DX9 just a few days ago and started playing MOH:AA, it crashed, first time in 3 weeks. So DX8 is back and it works [YAY] It directly contradicts your experience.

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 23:34
i swear it to be true

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
empty
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 23:59
Quote: "
This "my customers won't upgrade" lark is nonsense.
"


No, it isn't. At least not if you want to sell software.

Ogres have layers.
the_winch
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 00:12
I would be a bad idea if you need other people to play your games. I wouldn't download directx for a game. It has taken 4 or 5 hours to download 3mb files from microsoft on an adsl. I wouldn't even attempt to download somthing as big as directx.

Surely commercial games companies aren't going to stand for directx 9 not working on win98. Must be a fair amount of sales lost.
Rob K
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 00:15 Edited at: 26th Jun 2003 00:15
"No, it isn't. At least not if you want to sell software"

If people pay say £15 for your software, I'm pretty sure that they will be willing to download an update for DX if necessary so that they can use it. The only way you will stop them from buying it is if you make a big fuss about requiring DX 9 on your site, if you don't mention it, and if anyone asks, just tell customers that it is a standard piece of MS software (which is true), and which is needed for graphics intensive apps (just tell them that it will make everything faster, look better - bs. but it works), then they will be quite happy.

Has anyone here ever had any problems selling DBP based software because it was DX8 based?

"I tried DX9 just a few days ago and started playing MOH:AA, it crashed, first time in 3 weeks. So DX8 is back and it works "

That could be to do with his gfx card's drivers, not MOH:AA, it is a featured title on the MS DirectX' website for heaven's sake. It works with DX9.

DBPro is DX9 in P5, it won't be going back, and there will be no new DX8 version. I think it is for the better, you may disagree, if you don't like DBP+DX9, you may as well jump through a timewarp >> http://www.blitzbasic.com

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_103.zip
Blanka
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 00:29
DX9 will play any game?

go try playing hitman2 on DX9 i am not a computer noob by any means, and i tried for hours to get it to work under dx9, it was a brand new game off the shelf which i hadent played yet, i am running XP with a top end machine with all the latest drivers, i had to get DirectX buster and run in safe mode to uninstall DX, then reinstall DX8.1 then reinstall gcard drivers, THEN hitman 2 worked totaly fine..


Screw DX9... id rather not code in DB and i DEFFINITALY wont buy dbpro if it makes DX9 a req

lee would of just lost himself 100$ just there...

and im sure im not the only one as even in a small forum the opinion is greatly devided...
MrTAToad
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 00:34 Edited at: 26th Jun 2003 00:38
Nope, I certainly wasn't kidding. XP is a hell of a lot more stable than 98, 98SE or ME.

Seeing as you dont want to progress to DX9, why not go backwards ? Get a C64 - no more DX problems then... Hell, the C64 could crash - I know, why not go back to the abacus ?

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
empty
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 00:42 Edited at: 26th Jun 2003 00:45
Quote: "
If people pay say £15 for your software, I'm pretty sure that they will be willing to download an update for DX if necessary so that they can use it. The only way you will stop them from buying it is if you make a big fuss about requiring DX 9 on your site, if you don't mention it, and if anyone asks, just tell customers that it is a standard piece of MS software (which is true), and which is needed for graphics intensive apps (just tell them that it will make everything faster, look better - bs. but it works), then they will be quite happy.
"

How many shareware programs have you sold so far?
Seriously, a lot of potential customers are boys and girls in offices (office games) and they want an app to run on their current system as it is.

EDIT: BTW people will try it before. If it doesn't run they won't buy it.


Quote: "
Has anyone here ever had any problems selling DBP based software because it was DX8 based?
"

Besides the fact that there isn't that much DBP software that could be sold yet, DX8 is part of WinXP. So it is on many users' computer anyway.

Ogres have layers.
heartbone
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 00:46
Rob K "Has anyone here ever had any problems selling DBP based software because it was DX8 based?"

I certainly hope not. I don't think that anyone is brave (or foolish) enough to attempt marketing a game created with the current DBPro compiler. I think that you would be risking creating a bad reputation with consumers.

"DBPro is DX9 in P5, it won't be going back, and there will be no new DX8 version." According to ? ...... is there an official source saying that DX9 is a requirement for DBPro executables???

Forget about the time warp, progression only. If there is no Win98 compatible DBPro (or XP compatible DBClassic) then Python+C will have to do.

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
Blanka
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 00:51
"dont wanna upgrade why not go back to the abacus"

well now, thats hardly exaderating is it?
i dont want to upgrade because its pointless and i might lose people who might be intrested, is hardly taking a step backwards is it?

its just not wanting to jump of a cliff
Magefire
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 01:35
I don't know why people are so mean to Microsoft about everything. I have found Windows XP to be much more stable than all the other Windows systems that I have ever used and I have used Windows 2000. XP is extremely compatable and new games are mostly coming out for it since so few people will want to work on something as unstable as 98. It might have been a better desicion to upgrade to DX9 later when all the big games start coming out for it. It really makes no difference since I have it. Anyway, almost all DB games require media. Some of the media even when compressed can be large and may add up. When you sell your game and if it is good, it may be a large download. Basically all my DB games are more than 2MB non-compressed. With all the models, pictures, and textures, your game will be big. Maybe bigger than the DX9 runtime. If you sell it on CD or have someone distribute it for you, they will most likely include the runtime library of DX9 and no one will have to download. If your customers want to play your product after downloading it, they should also want to download DX9.

If you give a man some fire, he will be warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.
MasterInsan0
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 03:33 Edited at: 26th Jun 2003 03:36
Dragonmage, people are mean to Microsoft because Microsoft is mean to us. The people have been screwed from behind by MicroCrap for so long that most users don't know of anything else other than MS. The bad thing about this is they can get away with all kinds of stupid things, such as an operating system that hasn't had any good upgrades since Win95 and that still has code from the Win 3.1 days.

Hell, even Win32 programming requires you to wade through obsolete parameters deeply embedded in the functions that you MUST use to get a Windows program to work.

Also, your last remark is making Bill Gates smile (well, if he were to read these boards). It's exactly his way of thinking. It's like him saying, "If the average end-user wants to use my monopolized OS, they should also want to pay $200 more for a new GUI upgrade and a slightly different kernal (NT over standard Win32).

I will however admit, if you HAVE to use a Windows OS, it should probably be XP. It's still full of MicroFluff, but at least I've never had a computer hard lock on me in XP. I have, however, had many problems with XP that I never had on 98SE, such as XP's "intelligence" that tries to install a 4-button gamepad driver for my new PS2-style gamepad. Also, XP simply took out the blue screen of death (hereafter referred to as BSoD) for "we'll try to fix the error, or simply leave it there and let it eat your RAM." Even though there aren't anymore BSoD's, XP still suffers from the same conditions that used to bring up a blue screen. Now, however, it just assumes you're smart enough to know to ctrl+alt+delete and kill a program that's chewing up RAM faster than Bill Gates sucks money off of people.

Anyway, back on topic. I would figure that anyone that would download a game made by a DarkBASIC user is either in the community or in the programming community. I have honestly never seen anyone that didn't know what DB was download a DB/Pro game. But that could just be me. Generally, the game development community tries to keep DX and Video/Sound drivers up to date. However, if you ever marketed a game, you would definitely have to include the runtime on the CD, or else you wouldn't sell much. Then again, it could also be said that anyone that would buy the game would already need DX9, and most people try before buying. So, it's really still a limitation either way. I personally say DBS should wait to change it until it becomes just a little more commonplace. Then again, by the time U5 or whatever update will update DBPro to DX9 comes out, it may already be commonplace .

Just my few cents worth on the subject.

(Edit): Also, Dragonmage, XP is compatible with any program 98 and up. If it's older than that, I doubt it's going to work. I have tons of DOS games (Duke Nukem 3D especially, although it has Windows ports now, thank God) that do not run at all under XP or run horribly. I have a Windows 95 Magic: The Gathering game that doesn't even try to run on XP, it never even shows a window when you execute it. I've tried it in all of the "compatibility modes," but I really can't tell that those do much of anything.

My friends' and my website for DBPro Programming:
http://unseenstudios.netfirms.com

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