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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Wanted! DirectX to Collada Code

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 19:09
Hi Guys,

It might seem an odd place to have such a request, but there is a reason you will find it here in the DBP forums. We want to extend DBP to allow import, export and conversion of COLLADA model files to suppliment our current support for DirectX files. You can find more information on this file format here: http://www.collada.org

There are two stages to the challenge, with the second stage being optional. The primary stage is to take a standard DirectX file which contains both geometry and animation data, and export a version of it as a COLLADA model file that is compatible with 3DSMAX, MAYA and XSI. The export must be importable into these three packages with geometry and animation data in tact.

The second stage is the reverse. To take a COLLADA model file that has been exported from 3DSMAX, MAYA and XSI and convert it to a standard DirectX file with geometry and animation in tact.

The code must be in C++ so that we can build this functionality directly into the DBP engine. Once both stages are complete, we can integrate the code in such a way as to support COLLADA directly within the engine allowing loading and saving of COLLADA files natively.

We felt that rather than attempt to support twenty different 3D formats, it made more sense to support one format that has established itself as a common format and was supported by the biggest modelling tools in the industry.

I open up this thread to discuss the pros and cons of COLLADA support, and also to find those special people who have some spare time to look into this challenge for us.

"Small, smart, and running around the legs of dinosaurs to find enough food to survive, bedroom programmers aren't extinct after all "
jason p sage
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 19:18
Lee,

Is this Pro-Bono? A Challenge? A Contest? And are you interested in the CORE of this to be in DBPro CODE or DLL's?

Best Regards,
Jason P Sage

LeeBamber
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 20:11
Right now I just want to see if anyone is interested in looking into COLLADA for us (while we work on other things). If the right code comes along and it does the job, we will buy it and integrate it into the DBP engine itself so LOAD OBJECT and SAVE OBJECT can be used to export and import COLLADA files as well as DBP files.

"Small, smart, and running around the legs of dinosaurs to find enough food to survive, bedroom programmers aren't extinct after all "
Roxas
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 20:15
OMGF!! Collada model! Thats just what i was looking for! And its the best format i know for now. Im using ColladaMax plugin for 3ds max so make sure it works with it


Click For Details!
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 20:57
Is there any form of "prize" for doing this? I can probably do it, plus more file formats support, such as B3D.

Anyways I'll have a go at it.

Cheers,

-naota

My email actually IS "[email protected]". Why? I don't know.
Aex.Uni forums
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 00:01
Quote: "we will buy it and integrate it into the DBP engine itself "


Sounds like it.


I'm Pro grammer.
LeeBamber
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 06:02 Edited at: 5th Mar 2008 06:06
We will want to own the code and all IP associated with it, and the best way we know how to do that is simply to buy it from you for a fair price. Alternatively, if you want products instead, we can afford to be a little more generous. It very much depends on whether we get exactly what we are after, which would be an extremely solid import/export code base that pretty much takes care of the whole problem. It is probably quite easy to get a COLLADA model out of an X file after some fudging. It is probably quite a bit harder to ensure that you can get a COLLADA model out of ANY X file, and that your COLLADA model will work seamlessly in 3DSMAX, MAYA and XSI (and back again). No small task you will agree!

The good news is that we are not after everything that COLLADA supports. We will be happy with basic XYZ NORMAL UV for geometry, MATERIAL data for texture info and POS ROT SCALE MATRIX key-frame animation data. Essentially the things you find in an X file and a DBO file

"Small, smart, and running around the legs of dinosaurs to find enough food to survive, bedroom programmers aren't extinct after all "
Latch
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Posted: 6th Mar 2008 03:05
Quote: "There are two stages to the challenge, with the second stage being optional. The primary stage is to take a standard DirectX file which contains both geometry and animation data, and export a version of it as a COLLADA model file that is compatible with 3DSMAX, MAYA and XSI. The export must be importable into these three packages with geometry and animation data in tact.

The second stage is the reverse. To take a COLLADA model file that has been exported from 3DSMAX, MAYA and XSI and convert it to a standard DirectX file with geometry and animation in tact."


Do I understand this correctly, there will be a physical input file and a resulting output file from the importer/exporter?

Direct X can be tokenized or text. Does it matter which for either direction?

Enjoy your day.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 6th Mar 2008 05:58 Edited at: 6th Mar 2008 06:13
Okay Lee Bamber, I'll create this COLLADA importer/exporter for you. You'll own all the rights to it, and do with it as you please.

I'll even set it up so you'll have to do little to no porting work to make it compatible with your core subset of "Debug" DLLs.


Though I do have a question. I've asked RickV a while ago if I could get *any* job at TGC (I asked via email), but never got a reply back. Obviously my specialty is C++ programming. I'm very much aware of how to use DirectX (And OpenGL but I doubt that matters), and how to use the core Windows API. I have Windows Vista (No DirectX 10 card at the moment though). 1.5 years C++ & Windows API programming experience. 1 year ASM experience. 1.4 years OpenGL experience, and 1.2 years DirectX experience. Some DirectX 10 experience despite not having any graphics card to test on. Years given in "proportion" (Ex: 1.5 instead of one and a half years).

I'd email you about this, but I already tried that and never got a response (As you're all busy).


Cheers,

-naota

My email actually IS "[email protected]". Why? I don't know.
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Mistrel
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Posted: 6th Mar 2008 06:56 Edited at: 6th Mar 2008 06:57
What made you choose Collada as your format of choice? Filmbox is already a standard format across most major packages.

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?id=6837478&siteID=123112

http://3dfolio.com
Roxas
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Posted: 6th Mar 2008 16:43 Edited at: 6th Mar 2008 16:46
Collada is awesome format! And if you get the animations and bones and skinning like in ColladaMAX (Importer for 3ds max) then i love you guys lol..

Not sure about Filmbox(Does it support bones,skinning,animation?) but i like Collada.


Click For Details!
jinzai
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Posted: 6th Mar 2008 19:05
In investigating COLLADA, I have stumbled across this question. A few things worth noting about COLLADA are:
1. It is being pushed by Sony.
2. It is an open format.
3. COLLADA.org has a DOM, which is supported by code, and available for Windows. It is a nice API which implements an XML schema.


Roxas, hold on for a few more days. I'm almost done.
Roxas
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Posted: 6th Mar 2008 20:02
Quote: "Roxas, hold on for a few more days. I'm almost done."

Awesome ^^ Just make sure it supports ColladaMAX and im happy lol


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 6th Mar 2008 22:23
I vote Aaron gets/deserves a job with TGC. I'm sure he would make a great job of this

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
TinTin
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Posted: 7th Mar 2008 12:04
What about COLADA to DBO?...

Cyberspace was becoming overcrowded and slummy so I decided to move. These nice chaps gave me a lift.
LeeBamber
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Posted: 7th Mar 2008 16:16
Anyone else think COLLADA is the wrong file format to bank on, and have other suggestions on the best format to use for MAX, MAYA and XSI (plus the myriad of other tools out there). If we choose COLLADA, then you would be able to load in a collada file and save out as a DBO in DBP.

"Small, smart, and running around the legs of dinosaurs to find enough food to survive, bedroom programmers aren't extinct after all "
Roxas
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Posted: 7th Mar 2008 16:26
I vote for COLLADA i mean comon it does have lots of features and the models imported are flawless..


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jason p sage
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Posted: 7th Mar 2008 16:36
Lee I THINK I have an idea what you're up against. DirectX 10 I hear changes the game a bit for files - I could be wrong though - but I heard DirectX 10 doesn't natively do Direct.X files - I'm not sure if this is rubbish or not... but if thats true... Microsoft yet agains abandons a technology they created.. making investments in modelling tools that supported it - well.. less becoming.

I don't much about Collada - but ifs a file format that is popular #1, and has Mesh structures #2, Handle Multiple Meshes (like limbs) #3 handles animations... preferably both kinds, and handles the UV's and attaching textures.. then I think this may be the way to go.

The key is grabbing the most popular format and running with it as everyone will flock to support it in theory... I hope Collada is the one that fits this bill.

Good Luck!

jinzai
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Posted: 7th Mar 2008 16:56 Edited at: 7th Mar 2008 17:02
DX10 does still support native loading of X files with the same functions as before. The problem, as I see it is that there is not any decent code out there that does it properly. Most code at least loses the frame hierarchy, lumping all meshes into one mesh with many materials. Also, the file format is not so difficult as to eliminate the possiblity of loading it manually.

I have found out how to do that using DX9, it was there all along! I can load an x file, and maintain the mesh hierarchy as is.

Loading an x file to be displayed is dead simple, but...the result is not exportable without losing alot of the information. I am fixing that right now.

As an example, the German model has 19 meshes. If you use standard methods of loading it, those 19 meshes will become 1 mesh. My code preserves the 19 meshes.

EDIT: My code uses DX9 to load the model!
Roxas
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Posted: 7th Mar 2008 18:08
DirectX is flawed aswell.. The mesh isnt always so great.. Animations are sometimes jerky and so on..

Collada supports everything almost and i havent got any proplems with it.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 7th Mar 2008 18:28
I've never heard of Collada, but this is something the power user may find handy.


I fail at life. No, really.
jason p sage
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Posted: 7th Mar 2008 19:23
I guess my fear is I don't have one model program that (to my knowledge) supports Collada... I don't even know the file extension

jinzai
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Posted: 7th Mar 2008 19:49
It is '.dae'. Follow the link in the original post Lee made. All your questions will be answered there. COLLADA is new enough that it is supported by plug-ins.
Mike J
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Posted: 7th Mar 2008 21:36 Edited at: 7th Mar 2008 22:19
Interestingly enough, COLLADA is the output format that Google SketchUp uses to export its models to Google Earth. So if DBPro starts supporting COLLADA natively, would it be able to read SketchUp models that were exported for use with Google Earth?

Conversely - if DBPro can export to COLLADA - would Google Earth be able to use that output and position a DBPro 'thing' somewhere on the face of the planet?

"The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese."
jinzai
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Posted: 7th Mar 2008 22:14
Mike, I never even looked in those forums...sorry. I did after Lee started this thread. Wow! I got my COLLADA models from Google.

Umm, I'd say...yes and yes again.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 01:34
Quote: "I vote Aaron gets/deserves a job with TGC. I'm sure he would make a great job of this"

Thanks.

@Lee / Mike / RickV
Quote: "Though I do have a question. I've asked RickV a while ago if I could get *any* job at TGC (I asked via email), but never got a reply back. Obviously my specialty is C++ programming. I'm very much aware of how to use DirectX (And OpenGL but I doubt that matters), and how to use the core Windows API. I have Windows Vista (No DirectX 10 card at the moment though). 1.5 years C++ & Windows API programming experience. 1 year ASM experience. 1.4 years OpenGL experience, and 1.2 years DirectX experience. Some DirectX 10 experience despite not having any graphics card to test on. Years given in "proportion" (Ex: 1.5 instead of one and a half years)."

My email is [email protected].


Cheers,

-naota

My email actually IS "[email protected]". Why? I don't know.
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Roxas
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Posted: 8th Mar 2008 12:11 Edited at: 8th Mar 2008 14:14
Actually i think Aaron could have some job around TGC good. What ive seen he does stuff really good!

//Edit
Here is one viewer that Views FFX Models and can export to Collada format.. And look how good the collada actually exports and imports! The models are just like in the game.


Click For Details!
Mistrel
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Posted: 9th Mar 2008 10:44 Edited at: 9th Mar 2008 11:23
The problem I have with Collada is that it's not officially supported by any of these packages. There are plugins for Max, Maya, and XSI, but these utilities are supported through third-party developers who may not always back this format.

FBX is an open standard, platform-independent 3D file format with support from major software vendors including Autodesk (3dsmax/Maya/Autocad), NewTek (Lightwave), Softimage, Microsoft, Midway, Okino (Polytrans), Luxology (Modo), Wings3D, and several others.

I'm not arguing whether Collada is a capable format but it certainly is not the optimal choice if you want the widest compatibility, interoperability, and vendor support.

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?id=6837478&siteID=123112

http://3dfolio.com
Roxas
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Posted: 9th Mar 2008 16:58
Ill ask the question again.. Does FBX support animations and bones and skinnig and etc.. When i tried to port from 3ds max to milkshape nothing but mesh with texture came up..


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Johaness
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Posted: 10th Mar 2008 00:26
This is exciting news. I read somewhere that the fbxsdk has support for collada, so by going fbx you'll get collada as well? Killing two birds with a stone.

@Roxas
fbx supports bones,animation. I use it to convert biped animations to bones, but thats with max. Haven't tried with other software.
Mistrel
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Posted: 10th Mar 2008 10:48 Edited at: 10th Mar 2008 10:52
A very basic example of what the format supports can be found in the Alias 2005 whitepaper:

Quote: "
• Polygon Mesh, and NURBS patch
• Texture and Material mapping
• Vertex normals and vertex color mapping
• Link constraints on the control points
• Shape constraints on the control points
• Multiple cameras and a camera switcher
• Multiple lights and gobos
• Markers
• Skeleton segments (root, limb, and limb node)
• Multiple takes of mocap animation
• Joint rotation (FK) and end effector (IK) animation
• Bind pose for a list of nodes
• Rest pose for a list of nodes
• Audio clips (embedded or referenced)
• Video clips (embedded or referenced)"


The latest FBX format is a complete solution that is not limited to storing just 3D data. The best source for information on the latest specification can be found at http://www.autodesk.com/fbx.

Quote: "When i tried to port from 3ds max to milkshape nothing but mesh with texture came up.."


Would you upload your example for me to look at? There shouldn't be a problem.

http://3dfolio.com
Roxas
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Posted: 10th Mar 2008 16:14
Quote: "Would you upload your example for me to look at? There shouldn't be a problem."


There may be something i did wrong then :/ I try again and if it does not work ill post the example here


Click For Details!
LeeBamber
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 18:17
FBX support also looks promising, and the availability of their free SDK makes it perhaps an easier option. I have no problems supporting FBX if someone drops it into my lap If anyone wants to skip parsing the DirectX format, and go straight to DBO, then email me and I will send you the appropriate files to understand how to save and load DBO files in C++. It was mentioned to me that forcing you guys to go through the muddy world of DirectX file parsing might be cruel and un-necessary when what TGC really want is COLLADA/FBX to DBO and DBO to COLLADA/FBX.

"Small, smart, and running around the legs of dinosaurs to find enough food to survive, bedroom programmers aren't extinct after all "
Roxas
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 21:09
Yes i think the straight to dbo would be cool.. Also loading times would be faster! But make sure that the animations are like in 3d modellers


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jinzai
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 22:06 Edited at: 11th Mar 2008 22:07
@Mistrel - Okay, you win...The SDK from Autodesk includes some COLLADA specific classes. At least Autodesk has decided to hedge their own bet. Nice move, Autodesk .

@Roxas : No worries, COLLADA is still there, I am adding FBX to my code. With Lee's offer above, I should be able to wrap this up soon.

@Lee: I think it is a right of passage to have to go both paths through MS X file documentation. I am learning loads about it, and I am sure that my graphics will benefit greatly from the education. They finally gave us the D3DXLoadMeshHierarchyFromX, which is a C++/COM/DirectX education in itself!

@All : It really never pays to bet against Sony, or XML...imho.
(Yes, I remember Beta, but still...its Sony!) The COLLADA API is very easy to integrate, and it will grow your code to about 2.6MB all by itself! There is alot of existing media in COLLADA format, and Sony and Google are behind it.
Roxas
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Posted: 12th Mar 2008 18:50
Quote: "@Roxas : No worries, COLLADA is still there, I am adding FBX to my code. With Lee's offer above, I should be able to wrap this up soon."


Amazing Jinzai! Thats awesome job Cant wait to test it when its in dbpro


Click For Details!
Mobiius
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Posted: 14th Mar 2008 02:01
Looks like a good format war brewing! Ha ha. If only I had these packages, I only have truespace!

3700+ Athlon 64 - Geforce 7600 GS - 2GbDDR2 RAM - 40Gb Hdd (In this pc) - Windows Vista Ultimate (x86)
Redmotion
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Posted: 14th Mar 2008 02:42 Edited at: 14th Mar 2008 02:43
My preference is COLLADA but having FBX will be a big plus.

You might want to have a look at the Crosswalk plugin by Softimage. It is based around reading and writing FBX and COLLADA and has all the C++ source code included. It also provides export plugins for XSI, Max and Maya.

http://www.softimage.com/downloads/Crosswalk/default.aspx

@Mobiius: XSI has the ModTool version which uses these formats and its free to use. (non-commercial - which is not a drawback)

http://www.softimage.com/downloads/XSI_Mod_Tool/default.aspx

Check out The Grand Machines! & Black Mesa: Source <- vote @ www.moddb.com
jinzai
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Posted: 14th Mar 2008 03:21
They are about equal as far as potential. COLLADA also has Ageia, ODE, Havok and Bullet physics, and FX shaders. I have not examined FBX as extensively.
EdzUp
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Posted: 14th Mar 2008 10:12
why not support both then you can increase your support base.

-EdzUp
Redmotion
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Posted: 14th Mar 2008 12:03
Quote: " "There are two stages to the challenge, with the second stage being optional. The primary stage is to take a standard DirectX file which contains both geometry and animation data, and export a version of it as a COLLADA model file that is compatible with 3DSMAX, MAYA and XSI. The export must be importable into these three packages with geometry and animation data in tact.

The second stage is the reverse. To take a COLLADA model file that has been exported from 3DSMAX, MAYA and XSI and convert it to a standard DirectX file with geometry and animation in tact.""


Why in this order?

I'm not trying to be argumentative here , but surely having a COLLADA/FBX model load straight into DBPro (as a 3d object same as LOAD OBJECT command) is the priority?

Check out The Grand Machines! & Black Mesa: Source <- vote @ www.moddb.com
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 14th Mar 2008 17:31
Quote: "Why in this order?

I'm not trying to be argumentative here , but surely having a COLLADA/FBX model load straight into DBPro (as a 3d object same as LOAD OBJECT command) is the priority?"


See Lee's last post

Quote: "FBX support also looks promising, and the availability of their free SDK makes it perhaps an easier option. I have no problems supporting FBX if someone drops it into my lap If anyone wants to skip parsing the DirectX format, and go straight to DBO, then email me and I will send you the appropriate files to understand how to save and load DBO files in C++. It was mentioned to me that forcing you guys to go through the muddy world of DirectX file parsing might be cruel and un-necessary when what TGC really want is COLLADA/FBX to DBO and DBO to COLLADA/FBX."



a.k.a WOLF!
Meddo
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Posted: 18th Mar 2008 03:41
Feeling Software has stopped development on the open-source COLLADA tools (FCollada, ColladaMaya, ColladaMax and ColladaMotionBuilder) and will no longer offer free support for these COLLADA tools.

The open-source projects will soon be transferred to Sourceforge to allow the community to maintain it at its own pace. (That is nice news).

Link to Feeling Software news.

http://www.feelingsoftware.com/content/blogcategory/22/lang,en/

Meddo
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Posted: 18th Mar 2008 03:52
Also,

Poser Pro will offers Data Exchange with the industry-standard COLLADA format.
Import: Geometry, Textures, Cameras, and Lights
Export: Geometry, Textures, Cameras, Lights, Morph targets, Bones, Shaders, Animation Data
Character Design with “QUIDAM for Poser” from N-Sided exclusively for Poser Pro (Low Poly Character Design)

E-on software Vue d'esprit will offer Collada Data Exchange on the next version 7.

The free DAZ Studio 2.0 is Collada ready and got a FBX Plug-in.

and more...

It's a nice start to a real exhange beetween application.

Meddo

Jason R
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Posted: 19th Mar 2008 06:29
As an XSI user, I've had limited success with the built-in COLLADA Exporter. It doesn't really support exporting rigged, animated meshes properly. Whoever codes this support up shouldn't expect great compatibility from XSI in this regard.

However, I have had luck exporting animated meshes from XSI to FBX and then converting those to COLLADA using Autodesk's FBX Converter. So while it's not the smoothest pipeline, COLLADA is exportable XSI, and I'd love to see the support. I much prefer it to the .X format.

Static meshes seem to export / import fine, though, without having to jump through any of these hoops.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 21st Mar 2008 02:45 Edited at: 21st Mar 2008 02:47
@Jinzai
That Direct3D X command has been there since at least 8.1 I believe.

@Lee Bamber
Please email me an answer or a "status response" to the question asked - and reminded of. "Status response" meaning what's going on with the question asked.

Cheers,

-naota

My email actually IS "[email protected]". Why? I don't know.
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 21st Mar 2008 20:08
TGC is a small company, and the core team is even smaller. We do from time to time have small work-for-hire style jobs and we are pleased to have such a vibrant community to offer these jobs to. Right now we have nothing on offer.

The file format work is something we are working on internally, and ultimately we will have gathered our own collection of conversion functions as time goes by. The opportunity here is to beat us to a certain file format, specifically FBX/COLLADA, and then show us the working code. We will do a quick calculation how long it would take us to do the work ourselves, and how much it would cost us internally, and then if the planets are in alignment, we may choose to buy the code instead of doing it ourselves to save some time.

The ideal candidate for the file format work is someone with a little time on their hands, who have nothing else on their plate, and are doing it as much for their own learning as producing anything of value. The bonus is that there is a chance someone will want to buy it lock, stock and barrel which might mean a bit of spending money or perhaps a new graphics card

"Small, smart, and running around the legs of dinosaurs to find enough food to survive, bedroom programmers aren't extinct after all "
Aaron Miller
19
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Joined: 25th Feb 2006
Playing: osu!
Posted: 26th Mar 2008 22:44
Fair enough.
Good luck with everything -- It's fine now I found work elsewhere.

Cheers,

-naota

My email actually IS "[email protected]". Why? I don't know.
Aex.Uni forums
JimB
22
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Joined: 21st Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posted: 1st Apr 2008 09:48
TrueSpace7.51 supports Collada
MilkShape3D supports Collada and FBX
Blender3D supports Collada and FBX
but there seems to be different flavours of these formats
jinzai
18
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Joined: 19th Aug 2006
Location: USA
Posted: 2nd Apr 2008 01:38 Edited at: 2nd Apr 2008 01:47
COLLADA had some issues prior to 1.4.1, which is the current version. It was partly the implementation, and partly the DOM that Sony created. Khronos is now the owner of COLLADA. Since it is a rather open XML based schema, and not a model format per se...you will see a great deal of variance in how the assets are carried in the file. Unfortunately, I cannot afford any printed documentation, and there really isn't much on the Internet about actually using it. COLLADA is a format that I am dedicated to learning/integrating into DBPro. It can carry the entire game, if you want....physics, too. Plus, once you are using it, you can script using COLLADA, since it is XML.

I am still working with it, although I am busy elsewhere at the same time. One thing that is currently on my plate is proper face calculation. In this situation, it is not at all as simple as it seems otherwise. For example, given a DBO object for export to COLLADA...I can just dump the positions, normals, materials, etc. No problem. BUT, that is not how most model formats work...they only output face normals, not vertex normals. So, I have to calculate the faces, then average the vertex normals and output that. I have discovered that the index buffer is a great tool to use in this effort, you can tell alot about an object by examining the index buffer content.

I downloaded the FBX SDK from AutoDesk, but...it appears to want to work with MSVC2005/08, and not with my preferred MSVC2003. I will try to get it working with 2003...I just got finished wrestling with GNU makefiles for two days. Yuck! (....but, now I have XML and Ghostscript in static libraries!!!!!!!!)

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