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Geek Culture / Why are there so many gun related deaths in the Us every year?

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 04:23
the_winch... especially if its a maglight security edition

Arrow
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 04:41
If you wanta safe country try Japan, it's often call the safest country in the world. I'm no expert on Japanese law but they do have more freedom in sertain ares than the UK or US. Just look at this site, most of the items here can't be sold to the US.

http://www.poseidon.co.jp/

I'm sure Raven remembers this site, heh heh.

Teenage Male Geek + Female Remotly Intersted in Common Geek Activities = Teenage Male Jackass
bitJericho
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 05:19
US citezens are not allowed to have automatic weapons...only the military...and im not sure on this..but i don't think normal law enforcement are allowed either...

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randi
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 06:56
"In your estimations randi, why would banning guns in the US not work? Why, as you even point out, is the US a special case?"

I point out the US because that is the only one I can comment on because I live in the US.
Unlike others who think they know everything.

It might work for other countries but not in the US.
I talked about the revolution and no one got the point.
The US was created on the basis that you can have a weapon.
And now 200+ years later we are supposed to change that?
We are supposed to say, "OK, everyone through away your gun."
"Some people don't like them."
Like that would work.
You can not do that.
This is what I meant about prohibition.
The US did tell everyone to get rid of alcohol.
Did it do any good? Did it work? Nope.
Same goes with guns.

And my analogy with the DB copy protection is a good one.
We have all seen people complain about it so we know it bothers some.

Who are the ones complaining? The legal users.
You don't see illegal users, if any, complaining.
Because they get rid of the copy protection.

I don't know what country the one person was talking about...
but you can not buy a machine gun in the US.
Thier are some that are similar, but they are not automatic.
They just look like machine guns.
And the US has laws about who can own a gun, how many, what kind, where you can take it, etc.
It's just that criminals don't obey these laws.
If guns become illegal in the US, the criminals will be the only ones with them.
And that is not good.

Randi
randi
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 06:58 Edited at: 1st Jul 2003 06:59
And by the way.
I do not own a gun. I do not shoot guns.
But I believe if someone wants to, they should be able to.

Randi
indi
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 07:31
after a recent shooting in one of our universities.
the government has a handgun buy back scheme.
they didnt mention what calibre and types of guns people have to hand back until a day before they made it illegal to possess them.

which criminal do you think is going to hand back his weapon compared to gun shooter clubs and associations that just lost half their product and stock due to it being impounded by customs,effectively seizing that capital for that store owner.

this countries methodologies on this problem is a farce.

the honor system will work really well with murderers and bank robbers, dont you think?(sarcasm)

randi
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 07:43
What Indi?
You mean there wasn't a long line of people with masks on there face, and people with hooks for hands, or wearing black & white stripe shirts, or people carrying bags with dollar signs on them.
(cartoon bad guys)
Imagine that.

Seriously though...
We have those things too.
All you really get is people bringing in old junk guns that are all rusted and probably couldn't even fire.


Randi
Arrow
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 10:19
Personally I see gun control as a way to defile the the Bill of Rights futher. Ya know what the Second Amendment is for? Most people will say is just a left over from the days of old, I say BS. the US was founded on revolution, to over through a government that was abusing it's power (no offence to you in the UK). The founding fathers knew that the goverment can't make the same mistakes as the last, that's why they limited the federal goverment's power and made the local government strong. That's also why the second amendment was created, so that if such a time came where the people where being opressed (by forein or domestic powers) they could defend thereselfs, however that's just my opinion.

Personally I'm not big on guns, though I learned to shoot one at 5, and I have a few as part of my inheritance. It the principle of it that I believe in. Sure I don't beleave anyone needs fully automatic weapons or projectile explosives, but they would be helpfull if we need to hold our own against highly trained military types.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 11:08
Piffil. We would still be getting our sabres out and taking over other countries if we carried on with that attitude. Actually amend that to the "despised english", as I am Welsh.

And, erm, I don't think it mattered that the farmer was using an illegal shotgun or not. He basically killed someone. Could have done it with a spoon and he would have been still locked away.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
WOLFY
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 16:42
I think most people look at our "right to bear arms" in the US in the wrong way. Sure it was important at the time of the revolution for obvious reasons. Why is that still important now? No country could ever EASILY invade the US. Sure we hate and kill each other here, but when something happens to challenge our nation we band together like no other. There isn't a country in this day that could even attempt invading the US, but I can remember a time when there was (and I'm not that old). There is nothing to say that in a few years that possibilty won't be back. Who knows where things will go between the US and China. Tensions were building not to long ago.
Anyway, it is a great military defense for our country. We have enough snipers (hunters) already equipped with there own rifles to cause a lot of dammage.
This might all sound like a poor excuse right now, but in 5 years from now it might not be. Once our gun rights are taken away they are gone forever.

WOLF

HOOOWWWLLL!!!
Arrow
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 16:58
True, few countries will directly attack the US, but have you seen how bad those in power are messing up the US? It won't surprise me to see the day when there'll be another Revolutionary war in America.

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WOLFY
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 17:12
Arrow,
That could happen someday. That is if we still have our gun rights. It is one of the things that keeps the government in the peoples hands.
Someday, when the US falls from being the most powerfull nation in the world, it will be economics NOT military that does us in.

HOOOWWWLLL!!!
8truths
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 17:26
WOLFY . . . economics?

If the US economy crashes, it will be the end of western civilization!

The US economy peaked at 50% of global GNP after WWII, and has since hovered around 30%.

Between the US and Japan, you pretty much have "the World" when it comes to money.

We can't stop here! This is bat country!
adr
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 17:32 Edited at: 1st Jul 2003 17:39
Quote: "The way to protect your house in the UK is a large torch. Apparently because there is a reason to have a torch on your person (power cut)."


I think the term "reasonable force" comes in here. From what I can remember, you (the home owner) are allowed to use reasonable force to protect it.

I remember when my car got broken into and the dude stole my radio. I was stood about 10 feet away, confused. I had no idea what was going on (it's odd how your mind works in certain situations). Anyway, later in the police station, the police man was surprised I didn't hit the theif. As he put it, "you can do what you like within reason".

If the farmer had twatted the blokes around the head with a tennis racket, he'd be praised:

"Doddering old farmer beats up burglars" - Sun

Instead, he shot them....

"Evil bastard guns down two visitors" - Daily Mirror

The problem was, the situation didn't warrent a shooting.
the_winch
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 17:59
Quote: "I remember when my car got broken into and the dude stole my radio. I was stood about 10 feet away, confused. I had no idea what was going on (it's odd how your mind works in certain situations). Anyway, later in the police station, the police man was surprised I didn't hit the theif. As he put it, "you can do what you like within reason".
"


Bear in mind you could be face to face with someone who has a serious drug problem and a large screwdriver. Proberly best to let them take the stereo.

Quote: "The problem was, the situation didn't warrent a shooting."

I think it may have warrented a shooting, if someone shoots a shotgun at you inside and it hits a wall 6 foot infront of your head you are leaveing that house very fast. Aiming at the intruder is obviously murder.
adr
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 18:02 Edited at: 1st Jul 2003 18:05
I don't understand. I thought the reason for the controversy was because the situation didn't escalate into a shooting - The farmer dude just opened fire without warning. If that was the case, then maybe he was a bit out of order... He should've been a bit more reserved and english about it.

"Hello. Sorry to bother you while you're working, but would you mind leaving please?"

Then he shoulda introduced them to hees leetle friend!
randi
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 18:49
"reasonable force"

I don't like that law.
In the US you have the right to protect yourself, your loved ones, and your property by any way necessary.
I know if some guy is going to rape me, I am not going to be thinking...
"What is a reasonable force to protect myself?"
I am going to do what ever it takes, if possible and sensible that is.
Else, I guess I won't do anyhting.

Ok... I don't want to talk about that.
Sorry to bring it up.

Randi
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 19:19
i think most have actually missed the point i was trying to make...
although the UK might seem on the surface that guns are illegal they are perfectly legal to own and use if you so choose, you just MUST have a license which you have to be tested for - we also have alot stricter police as they confiscate weapons which people posses who can't show they legally can own it.
Bat this with the fact that they also allow ANYONE to own ANYGUN as long as it only shoots non-legal ammunition... that in itself is a deterant as someone comming at you doesn't know if your gun is real, blank, beanbag bullets or rubber bullets.
This oftenly prevents the need to use it when you do have it.

remember the constitution allows you BARE arms... it does NOT say anywhere that they must be LETHAL Arms.

this isn't about taking away the privilage, just making sure it is regulated better and limiting the number of people who actually can own guns which can kill people.
By all means they can keep thier nice Glock17's and Python357's under thier pillows if they feel safer with them, however what you would be taking away would the bte Lethal Lead Ammunition that people put in them and then go around schools killing other kids with.


if you want to be against that then fine ... i mean how backward can people be, it isn't taking away the freedom because if people still want to have a real ammunition weapon they could go out and take a weapons safety test and like a car have to learn to use it before they're given all that power which can kill someone.

No it wouldn't STOP gun deaths and such, but as soon as you make it a little harder to actually get one you'll find that the gun deaths would drop very rapidly because people just won't bother, America like Britian is a nation of very lazy people - if they don't have to do something they won't.

no doubt i'm gonna get alot of flack from that last line, but its true - the english people as a whole are just lazy people, we're not even close to being laid back ... just lazy as hell.
how many time have you asked a mate to do something and heard back "yeah sure i'll go do that right now." as oppose to "why do i have to do that?"

the_winch
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 21:52
Quote: "I don't understand. I thought the reason for the controversy was because the situation didn't escalate into a shooting - The farmer dude just opened fire without warning. If that was the case, then maybe he was a bit out of order... He should've been a bit more reserved and english about it."


I assume the reason for the controversy is because some people think the type of people that break into houses should be shot and he did it and went to prison. Add to this a lot of rural areas have no police protection and are very vunerable to robberies.

It was proberly a big story because it played on peoples fears and emotions. Also because of the vagueness or resonable force, how far can you go to protect your property?

Link to the story,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1627540.stm
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 22:32
you know that in York it is still legal to shoot the irish with a bow & arrow and even kill them in such a way.

lol the UKs got some pretty strange laws and interpretations... and taxi cabs should have a bail of hay stored in the boot at all times. crazy crazy laws (although i can think of american ones which are still legally viable which are worse, like in Tenessee it is illegal to purchase cornflakes on a Sunday)

andrew11
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 22:35
http://www.dumblaws.com/- lol

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WOLFY
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 23:22
Quote: "WOLFY . . . economics?

If the US economy crashes, it will be the end of western civilization!

The US economy peaked at 50% of global GNP after WWII, and has since hovered around 30%.

Between the US and Japan, you pretty much have "the World" when it comes to money."


I'm not saying that it is going to happen anytime soon. And your right, it would be the end of western civilization. I just think that it is more likely to be the downfall of the US someday than military.

HOOOWWWLLL!!!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2003 00:57
Quote: "Between the US and Japan, you pretty much have "the World" when it comes to money."


no one who took economic or follows the stock gonna explain whats wrong with sentances like that?

really there is something wrong with the whole thing, but can't be bothered to get into it

Ian T
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2003 04:49
Oh, great. Another stupid post.

People seem to be forgetting that the violent crime rate is far higher in England than it is in America.

--Mouse

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2003 05:35
if by rate you mean the percentage compared to other crimes, then you might be right ... but then again how they compile the crime figures is stupid.

if someone has they're cellphone snatched and they're punched whilst its taken, that is a Violent Crime + Grand Theft + Mugging ... whereas the States declare a crime on what the biggest thing in it was ... Mugging outweighs the Violent Crime, therefore the violence is dropped.

its all just to make thier figures look better than what they are, the UK police are used to looking bad all the time.

but that said we still have a lower crime rate in total to the US, but over 10% ... infact its one of the lowest in europe.

The Wendigo
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2003 06:31
Quote: "I have a theory. Someone said that guns don't kill people, people kill people. (Yeah, thats logic for you!! ) Well, how, and this is a serious question, would you kill someone without a gun?"


I have a pretty good size knife collection. That's a pretty darn good way to take someone out if you plan right.

Also, I agree with Randi. There are so many illegally owned guns in America, taking them from normal people would be a bad idea.

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Redmotion
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2003 19:17
TheWendigo: I've already written my opinion about my post on page 1.

Mouse: Is that proportionately? Because there's no way that is the case basic figures to basic figures:

In the USA there are 645 people per 100,000 of the population in prison and in England the figure is 125. USA has way more people in prison = way more crime.

I would assume most imprisonment is punishment for violent crime or "physical" crimes like robbery/etc.

UK has approx. 59,250,000 people and the US has 294,043,000 people. That means the UK has around 74,000 people in prisons and the US has 1,896,577. (Which goes up to 6.6 mil if you count people on parole and probation.) Now you guys seriously need to sort yourselves out!!!

I suppose I should do some work now.

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The Wendigo
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2003 12:24
Quote: "I would assume most imprisonment is punishment for violent crime or "physical" crimes like robbery/etc."


You said it yourself: assumption. A lot of the people in prison could simply be in there because they don't have much money and were caught driving their car with outdated smog tags, or broke a simple traffic law, got pulled over, and were found to not have insurance on their cars, or could have evaded taxes, or (probably one of the biggest as this is how the American mind tends to works) fraude. My point being, we have no clue why a lot of the americans are in jail so we can't assume that they are violent. Actually, my biggest suspicion why so many are in jail: drug usage. i've never heard of anyone around me go to jail except over drugs or alcohol usage at an inappropriate time. Then theire are the wonderfully built drug factories built out of homes all over the place that blow up every few months.... It could go on. In all honesty, on the news, I rarely ever hear of shootings. Usually its killings with knives at convenience stores, throut slitting, decapitation, forced drowning stuff like that. (the more disgusting deaths are usually commited by petafiles or angry husbands). Many criminals are smart enough to not use guns as they are very messy and splat evidence all over the place (DNA samples, GSR, shell IDing, gun tracking, etc...)

Is it just me or now a days, do women not kill as much with poisons anymore? Usually, lately, it's a shot to the stomache with a gun or smothering or something wierd like that it seems. Ofcourse, women really don't seem to kill that much.

Quote: "Rural counties experienced a 0.5-percent increase in Index crime, which can be attributed to increases in robbery, larceny-thefts, and motor vehicle thefts from 1999 to 2000"


-old figures but hold my point for at least my area. (btw, most robberies aren't violent. Robbers usually "case" a house so they know for sure the occupants are not home before they act).

Car theft is another factor involved in crimes and is VERY common. Two of my friends in the past year have had attempted car thefts on their vehicles.

Found a graph to back Randi's point of outlawing guns that outlines the homicide rate increase during prohibition and the same rate increase starting at "the war on drugs". The same could be contributed to gun control.

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/Modifiedmurderchart.gif

BTW, "reasonable force" is in the eye of the judge. I don't know the facts on the farmer case, but as far as I know, if someone suspiciously acts as if they have a firearm or any kind of weapon and makes a gesture appearing that they might be drawing it, you do/should have reasonable force to shoot that person. Reason being, cops in the US go by those same rules. That's why you hear every now and then about how the cops shot a man and how horrible it was cuz he wasn't armed: the cops had no way of knowing, and after a warning of no fast moves, they dissobeyed and made a dangerous gesture. Even if it was for their wallet, the police don't know.

And besides, what the heck am i supposed to do if someone pulls a painted water pistol on me in the dark? wait until he shoots it to find out it is just water?

Quote: "Add to this a lot of rural areas have no police protection and are very vunerable to robberies."
-the winch

this for the most part, is true. My area, though becoming urbanized, is still fairly rural and police response time is lowsy here. I think it's because the govt. keeps spending tax dollars on expierements like "Who has more gray cells? Men or women?" <- This was actually researched and was concluded: "What's it matter since it is only how you use them" which basically Nulls out the entire point of the experiment. My opinion: Who cares. This experiment costed over $10,000 tax dollars if i remember correctly.

Current Projects: Game Spawn 85%, mini BSP maker 50%, Height Mapper with many features 75%, Space Tactical (Like BC300AD) 15%.
The Wendigo
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2003 12:43
@Raven:

Quote: "if someone has they're cellphone snatched and they're punched whilst its taken, that is a Violent Crime + Grand Theft + Mugging ... whereas the States declare a crime on what the biggest thing in it was ... Mugging outweighs the Violent Crime, therefore the violence is dropped."


I'm not quite sure how you meen this, but the US charges on all counts, not just the highest. therefore, it would seem to reason that compiling information from a database of crimes would account for ALL crimes whether committed at the same time or not.

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Redmotion
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2003 13:27
TheWendigo: You are clearly putting people into prison for the wrong reason: sweep the poor under the carpet by sticking them somewhere else. Easy. Allows you to fudge stats about crime, poverty and no end of other electiontime special manipulations of "things are definitely improving!". (Says braindead news presenter of PR-derived, political press releases with a bleached white grin and fake tan.) As are the "War on Terrorism", "the War on Drugs"...You guys like the word WAR don't you...

AND you are also having the wrong people put into the presidency, elected due to the removal of over 50,000 (predominantly black and hispanics and democratic voters) from the vote register in the state of Florida.

I don't think England's any better. Our "freedom" (eg: our power to truely change our own lives in english-speaking, majorly white countries) has already gone. But we are left to live our lives as normal so we think nothing has changed (and can ignore the fact that certain people in priviledged positions benefit from helping big companies make lots of profit at our expense).

We still get health care and all the other things that make western life so "good", and noone takes our friends or family away in the middle of the night. However, it is the most insidious rise to power of white supremacists in history. They have a new tactic now: if they dont say they are, noone will think they are...

But hey, at least I'm free to say this... It's just noone cares when you do. APATHY, I've suffered from it for a long time.

Dual athlon 2000 MP - 1GB ram
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It is too late now..BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT BEEN PLAYING ATTENTION.
Redmotion
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2003 13:43
TheWendigo: All your news companies are OWNED by multinational companies. There is no independant reporting, the reporters say what they are told to say, they are lazy. Only a few reporters try to find out the truth and they have to do so from other countries because they are ignored or silenced by the fact that they cannot get work.

Yes, okay, there is a lot of violent crime in America but only a small percentage is from the use of guns. But you still have a violence problem and you are screened from it by your priviledged position. You have a nice middle class home in a neighbourhood with probably a high police presence/alocation (albeit maybe unseen). You have money. You see and hear nothing of the crimes because you don't know any really poor neighbourhoods. There are no white middleclass kids killing each other (Apart from those who are unstable or isolated by their demeanor.)

Dual athlon 2000 MP - 1GB ram
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It is too late now..BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT BEEN PLAYING ATTENTION.
Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 05:54
'There is no independant reporting, the reporters say what they are told to say'

Today's words of wisdom chosen. Now if I can just get people to believe that there is no such thing as complete confidence, I might just call it a day.

--Mouse

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The Wendigo
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 07:32
Freedom is a farce, to get that all out of the way. In actuallity there is no real freedom. It's all dogma that makes people feel good about themselves ie: yelling fire in an airplane or public area will get you arrested, saying bomb on an airplane yields similar yet harsher results, and many other things. That's just the freedom of speach. I'm not condoning nor denying my feelings twards this as good or bad. That's just how it is from a scientific standpoint. I guess you can say that freedom is different from each viewpoint as there is not 'true' freedom unless there is no government (because laws cancel out freedoms).

Next off (and the above was just cuz). If I were condoning puting the poor in jail, then I wouldn't be writing this. Instead I would be at the police station doing everthing possable for someone to arrest me. As I think I said: I'm basically a poor person in a rich neighborhood (or upper middlclass). My parents got to this position via an inherritance that payed off the house. We have never been rich, but now we are definetely in the poor bracket do to certain circumstances.

And as far as the News and what the news says. I agree with you in a way. That's why everything I listen to comes straight from the horse's mouth: FBI, Police, or anything dealing with the current subject. The news is easily paid off or threatened and all their ideals have slants on them. The only thing I rely in is good, hard, scientific fact in those cases because math has no bias.

Quote: "There is no independant reporting, the reporters say what they are told to say, they are lazy"


This I don't agree with. The News, as every other corporation in America, are trying to earn a dollar and tend to make things bigger than they really are. Now I would be contradicting myself by saying that they didn't get told what to say, and that does happen, but a lot of it is just making a good story better than the other guy's take on it.

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Redmotion
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Posted: 24th Jul 2003 13:06 Edited at: 24th Jul 2003 13:06
JUST WHEN YOU THOUGHT THAT THE THREAD WAS DEAD!!!!

[href]http://www.btopenworld.com/news/world/0,,csn=647|csr=3980844,00.html[/href]

I draw your attention to the following:
Quote: "At the time of the shooting, Davis, a former police officer, was carrying a gun himself but did not have time to use it in his defence."


Yep, when you are shot at you don't really have much time to shoot back do you. To be armed in DEFENSE would assume that you can fire first - but the agressor is also armed and he's trained himself - you may as well have a handkercheif in your pocket!!!

TheWendigo:
Yep maybe I was a bit harsh: "There is no independant reporting". It should have read "There is ALMOST no independant reporting." Oh yeah, my heart bleeds for the multi-million dollar corps trying to earn a dollar...(didn't you mean another 10 million dollars?!!)

PROJECTS:
Cyberbowl (70% done)
Something a bit bigger(understatement of the year) st art/concept/design doc stage
HZence
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Posted: 24th Jul 2003 18:57
Simple answer to your question: Because of stupid groups like the NRA.

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