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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Cutscenes are dead!!!

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Pus In Boots
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Posted: 10th Mar 2008 17:28
I feel like a lively debate. Take Bioshock. Now take Halo. Which one has better storytelling? (Hint: it begins with 'B'.) Do you know why? Because the story doesn't detach itself from the game in the form of a cutscene. It keeps the player immersed and; in doing so, allows storytelling to have n effect on the player. If you can seemlessly blend storytelling with gameplay immersion, then you'll have 100% of the players attention. So why is it that on the TGC forums, I've heard loads of talk about "cutscenes making a game great" lately? Are these the rants and ravings of a secret community of n00bs bent on destroying the fabric of this community from their underground caves? Or are they the collective thoughts of a community grasped by petty ideas of in-game cutscenes and half-baked machinima? Surely; instead of kowtowing to an age-old fad, we would embrace the new- that being the integration of storytelling into gameplay. It makes sense, does it not? After all, we need to play to the programs strengths, instead of promising CGI cutscenes that were ripped right out of Tekken. So let's explore:

Sound- some decent voice acting is all it takes to immerse a player and tell a story. Whether you're narrating a Stephen King novel or uttering nonsensical gibberish, this easily tops in-game cutscenes because it has a clear message and doesn't necessitate the overshadowing of gameplay, which should ALWAYS come first.

Scenery- An elaborate scene of violence that leaves the player wondering what happened can actively engage the player in the story, as their imagination is forced to fill in the blanks. It creates a desire to explore and find out what happened, which will be achieved through gameplay.

Writing- Scrawled writing on a piece of paper? bloody messages on the wall? Propaganda posters plastering the walls? A cutscene may be worth a thousand words, but who said a few wasn't enough? Writing really opens up your imagination and; if it's done during gameplay, that imagination carries over into the game experience.

NPC's- We all know this one. But character developement should never be relegated to cuscenes. You need to let the player feel close to someone and; to do that, you need to give them the freedom to do it.

So if you can tell me why cutscenes are so vital to any FPSC game's success without stammering and stuttering like a moron, I'm all ears.

(Note: I'm not calling anyone a moron.)

Feigning interest since 2005!
bond1
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Posted: 10th Mar 2008 17:34 Edited at: 10th Mar 2008 17:36
I know this will be a huge debate, but I was never in favor of cutscenes either. I like "in-game" story development, it's much more immersive.

Any cutscene longer than about 20 seconds usually bores me, and I end up getting up and taking a piss or something and skipping it anyway, as it's usually just a bunch of drawn out cliched dialogue.

----------------------------------------
"Your mom goes to college."
xyzz1233
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Posted: 10th Mar 2008 18:31
That's why Half-Life 2 is so immersive. Plus, its almost easier with FPSC. In order to show a cutscene, we have to export every little bit of scenery, etc. to a 3D animation program, whereas there are many scripts to make a character talk when you walk up to him/her.
Pride
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 00:48 Edited at: 11th Mar 2008 00:52
Hey, I know what you mean! But people use cutscenes because noobs can't script, so they make animations. With timers and scripts and waypoints, it's easy to make an immersive scene using scripts, even in FPSC.

Though, in some games like...I dunno, Gears of War, or something (not the best example AT ALL, i'm sick and I'm talking/typinf off the top of my head), cutscenes are necessary to inform the player of a story. I agree with Bond, if a scene is too long, I'll end up getting side-tracked or have my A.D.D. kick in and pet my cat, drink some more coffee, do my home-work, stare at a butter-fly oustide, or SOMETHING rather than stroll through a

EDIT: XYZZ, you beat me to it.

You can just use a screen recorder to take movies in FPS without importing. Though it only works in some cases.

Airslide
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 00:56
One of the things I loved about the original Half-Life was the lack of cutscenes, although the opening sequence in that tram gets old.

Nomad Soul
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 01:40 Edited at: 11th Mar 2008 01:44
Whilst I agree that in game sequences are impressive, not many people are going to take the time to animate, script, lipsync and all the other things required to pull it off with good effect. Although it would be possible in FPSC.

Cut scenes are what you make of them. They don't have to be Final Fantasy wait for 10 minutes things. Short sequences can be used to immerse the player when walking into a room and showing something interesting, or creating a cinematic pan of the surrounding environment. Resident Evil 4 did this brilliantly.

I think in game sequences work great in FPSC for talking with characters but if you really want to impress use both. Why would you want to restrict yourself to one or the other?

I hadn't realised before but there is a 'free cam' mode in test games for FPSC X10 which allow for some great in game cinematic moments, especially with the built in avi recorder.

Also the graphics in X10 look good enough for high end cut scenes much like those used in Gears of War and I dont recall anyone saying they were boring and not immersive.

I would agree that in engine cutscenes won't be as good in FPSC X9 unless the free cam mode from FPSC X10 makes it over though.

I'm a little disappointed that cut scenes havent featured as much in FPSC demos as I thought they would. Personally I think FPSC has good enough graphics to use in engine sequences rather than exporting everything in your scene to another application.
Airslide
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 02:09 Edited at: 11th Mar 2008 02:27
Free-cam mode? There's a free cam mode? I must look into this (what I get for not reading the manual )

EDIT: I can't find any reference to it in the manual. Are you sure there's a free cam mode, or are you refering to the record-without-hud feature?

General powell11
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 03:02
Quote: "although the opening sequence in that tram gets old."

yup, i ended up taking a poo

Check out gang- the gangster fps
Nomad Soul
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 04:04
Quote: "Free-cam mode? There's a free cam mode? I must look into this (what I get for not reading the manual)"


There sure is Airslide. I only just found out this evening myself after emailing Lee about it yesterday!

Quote: "EDIT: I can't find any reference to it in the manual. Are you sure there's a free cam mode, or are you refering to the record-without-hud feature?"


Here's Lee's reply to my request for a free cam option in test games.

Quote: "The free cam feature was implemented into X10 but it is an undocumented feature and does have its limitations.

Add a player start marker and change the name to ‘camera fly mode’ and see what happens."


Lee's come up trumps again! Enjoy Airslide

Now FPSC X10 users at least can start creating interesting in engine cinematics and check their levels out on the fly!
Flatlander
FPSC Tool Maker
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 06:08
Quote: "some decent voice acting "


There's the catch: decent I would love to have some voice-overs in my game. (Is that what it's called?) But you need a pretty good microphone plus a good (decent) voice.

However, I am creating a lot of RPG type dialog for story-telling. Not that difficult to do. I even have one scene where the character has his back to the player as the player comes up and starts the conversation and then the character rotates to the player. Granted, the characters aren't the greatest for standing-up conversation but if one tweaks the rotate head stuff, it's not too bad.

I suppose cut-scenes can be useful if used sparingly and for a very short duration; but, I don't know if I will ever use them.
Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 18:10 Edited at: 11th Mar 2008 18:13
Cut scenes are fine as long as they are not too long.
Some people go overboard, and they are better off doing machinima projects.

That is why I think that each game could have a machinima movie packaged with it. (double disc case)
That way you could go overboard with the cutscenes, without having a negative effect on gameplay. (no cut scenes needed in game)
They would be like a two for one deal, and it would appeal to both markets (movies and games), which would increase sales.

Don't forget to visit Conjured Entertainment

Pus In Boots
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 20:58
Quote: "Short sequences can be used to immerse the player when walking into a room and showing something interesting, or creating a cinematic pan of the surrounding environment. Resident Evil 4 did this brilliantly."


Those ones I like. Although they're best left out of first-person shooters. Also, Metal Gear Solid has some legendary cutscenes. But this isn't MGS. This is FPSC.

Feigning interest since 2005!
djmaster
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Posted: 12th Mar 2008 22:30
well long cutscenes,it is true but at start and the end they should be a bit longer to really see the game's point,still got to get x10 to rock and roll with some water :d

Soldier of Fortune Episode 1
fallen one
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Posted: 12th Mar 2008 23:12
fpsc dx 9 need ingame cut scenes, so you need to be able to tell the camera to point at stuff, and have triggers for events, thats all you need.

Evil Things Most Foulhttp://www.avantivitastudios.com/
Kilgore
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 20:18
I don't mind cut scenes if they are in keeping with the narrative style of the game. The trouble is that most cut scenes are very poorly done; this goes hand in hand with the fact that decent characterisation/plot is rare in games. To use the analogy of film, games rarely rise above Rambo. This is partly because it's an industry still in its infancy. We'll have to wait a while yet for a Citizen Kane.
Uthink
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 21:33
If you are just doing a run-and-gun game. Then cutscenes can be a waste. Back in my Diablo days, I really wasn't interested in objectives or missions. I just wanted to fight and kill stuff.

I then got on the HL2 bandwagon and suddenly realized how the storytelling could really get me into the game and characters.

The game I'm working now relies heavily on puzzles. And rather than leaving you high-and-dry, trying to solve a puzzle, my cutscenes give you clues. It's a lot more work. Mainly because I'm not using many in-game scenes, but I think it's worth it. I'm hoping to get people attached to the main character of my game.

I don't think there's anything to argue about. There are successful games with and without cutscenes.

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
Dude232
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 23:04
if you play King Kong for xbox the cutscenes are not there because during the gameplay you look around and see the envirment as if the cutscene was part of the level which keeps away the very bad cutscenes

Duke86
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Posted: 10th Apr 2008 10:59
I think it depends on the game. I can think of many old games that were very immersive and had lots of character that had cutscenes. The wing commander games were so well done (having probably dozens of hours of cutscenes) that sometimes the player would rush through levels just to see the next cutscene!

I think that with very very epic games, cutscenes are necessary for FPSC because they can show what you can't really show in FPSC.

For instance scifi games where a player is escaping a dying starship, flees to a nearby planet with a shuttlecraft. Showing a fly by of the shuttle and the starship exploding in the background is necessary to show the story, but can't really be done in game no matter what fancy scripts you have cooked up.

So in short if you have an average fps scripts are ok, but if you have something really epic with a huge backstory and very complex plot, I think cutscenes are a must..at least for FPSC.

This is especially true since the map sizes for FPSC are so limited. Think about very drastic situations that can't possibly be shown in fpsc. Player is in an airborne vehicle and gets shot down in between levels, or comes across a huge city which spans for miles and miles. The cutscenes would provide a better sense of the setting and what is going on.

So I think in a lot of cases, storytelling can be done without cutscenes, but because of FPSC limitations they are needed.
Avenging Eagle
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Posted: 10th Apr 2008 12:11
Personally, i would choose a mixture of both. FPSC characters cannot move their lips or eyes, so realism drops slightly there. Then you have to consider the fact that every movement would have to be animated. FPSC characters can't even point at something. Motion-capture would be a great way to bring these characters to life but since no one has a mo-cap set-up because its so expensive, we're unlikely to get very realistic character animation in FPSC itself.

Cut-scenes allow for more effects and more 'glitz'. Really, thats it. The trouble with cut-scenes is they tend to be done very badly, so are not believable. Until i played HL2 (which incidently i have only played the demo and am now convinced i should purchase), i would have said that cut-scene inject realism, now i think they might possibly deprive it.

AE

Aertic
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Posted: 10th Apr 2008 12:49
Off topic: hello tanner, I aint seen you in ages, nice to see you back.
Cornett Media
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Posted: 10th Apr 2008 20:11 Edited at: 10th Apr 2008 20:14
As an RPG fan and author, my main deal has always been the story. I actually turn down games with 'state-of-the-art graphics' unless the story's good enough that I can overlook the bling that the producers were going for; vice-versawise, a game that's somewhat lacking in the graphics department can own anything on the market if it has a brilliant story behind it (Metroid Prime anyone?). My brother is the exact opposite; FPS games are his favorite style because he doesn't have to deal with as long of a 'boring' sequence as my RPGs tend to take.

Having said that, most FPS gimmicks where a story is involved are very overused.

The evil corporate zombies angle? How many times has that honestly been used?

Space alien shooters? At least when Duke Nukem did it, the game parodied Doom enough to make things interesting. You can't tell me a game that has a radio station called KTIT was taking itself seriously.

World War II? I know the Afghanistan and Iraq wars are still new, but couldn't we try focusing on Vietnam, Korea, or, God forbid, World War I? Nazis may have been bad, but they're not the only Stormtrooper-type army that's existed in the last hundred years.

And don't even get me started on the non-zombie mutant horror shooters. Some stories, like Legend of Zelda or any one single Final Fantasy installment, are in-depth enough to warrant a video game instead of a movie; typically, horror is NOT one of those kinds of stories.

So what's an independent one-man game maker team to do?

This might get me a few looks, but go in the vein of early-90s games. Have one developed scene at the start of the game, giving you the background information as to what's going on. From there, if you HAVE to develop a story (and let's face it, this is one area where the open-world and RPG genres have it all over FPS games), use in-game elements like text or voice-overs to do the job. If you need more than two videos to tell a story for a first-person shooter, you might be better off making a feature-length movie instead.

And for those of you going "Oh, my mic stinks like Alan Rickman's career since Die Hard, I can't do a good V.O," USB microphones are notorious for having crystal-clear tones and have an average cost of about US$30. I have a ten-American-buck regular-jack microphone that I currently use for my podcast, and with that one mic you can pick up every nuance in my voice AND my co-host's. It gets creepy sometimes, the amount of things I can hear when I'm recording.

You want evidence that story's not always the best idea? I point you in the direction of the movie trailer for "Zombie Strippers" starring Jenna Jameson and (sadly) Robert Eungland. That movie looks so bad, my opinion of it's going straight to DVD next month! I'd rather have seen a game developed around it just to shoot Jenna's head off instead of a feature film. Unlike the motion-picture industry, games can actually get away with not having an in-depth storyline if the concept's appealing enough, and let's face it--who HASN'T wanted to waste a barely-qualified-as-shapely stripper for a bad dance?

The beauty of the FPS style is that it's one of the few genres that everyone, regardless of their nationality or background, can pick up on the functions of very quickly. The last thing we want to do is bog down people with five minutes of video between each level. You may want to tell a great story, but let's not forget that we're not exactly Electronic Arts or Activision, who have the resources to pull those kinds of games off. It may be 'primitive', but if you're using one of the story arcs I mentioned above, the gameplay's good enough. If you're that concerned with telling a good story that you need cutscenes between every level, then maybe you need to consider a different genre of game to develop.

Gemstone Games is now Cornett Media
Duke86
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Posted: 10th Apr 2008 21:07
Very good points Cornett Media. You are right if you want a good story, FPS games are probably your last bet maybe next to games like racing and sports.

BUT...one should still make the story gripping enough to warrant the player wanting to continue and feel more immersed in the world. There have been a few in the past that have had some pretty complex in depth stories, and didn't just focus on itchy trigger finger shooting.

Look at stuff like Deus Ex,but that was one of the few FPS games that had a very deep plot. There have been others, but being they are older I'd have to look through my game collection (they are old and not installed). A lot of these used in game cutscenes, but mainly small ones only to show character dialogue, and a lot could have easily been done in game. I think it just made it better because you get to see what your character looks like more often, look at half life you never seen Gordon's face in the game ever, we are only going by the box art.



oh and also, I find it very weird that you mentioned Zombie Strippers, because I had not heard about that movie until about an hour ago, I just got out of my Journalism History class and my weird professor kept talking about it. Weird how I come back to my room and see you mention it on the forum! Thats happened a lot lately
Cornett Media
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Posted: 10th Apr 2008 21:51 Edited at: 10th Apr 2008 21:54
@ Duke86: Glad I could make someone's day. I'm not going to argue you on Deus Ex, that actually happens to be one of my favorite games. And you bring up a very valid point, that most of the cutscenes that are done in games could have probably been done in game as well. That was always a complaint with me, that you could tell when you were viewing something outside of the game engine. At least with the computer version of Deus Ex, everything was in-game; you didn't see any CGI sequences because they used the engine for all of the story sequences. You...really don't want me to get started on the PS2 version...

Gemstone Games is now Cornett Media

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