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Dark GDK / BSP still doesnt work

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jezza
16
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Joined: 8th Mar 2008
Location: Bham, UK
Posted: 2nd Apr 2008 22:14
I've tried loads of times, but I can't laod a BSP, except the one in the samples. that explains that the problem is the BSP or PK3. Someone must have got it to work using their own map. so can you tell me what compiler/editor/game you used. and how you set up the pk3. and what texture format u used.
jinzai
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Location: USA
Posted: 3rd Apr 2008 05:02
Bummer.

I don't have a computer with GDK on it at this time, so I can only state that DBPro is a bsp loading hero...it loads them no problem.

That logic is not the best, however. Your experience, however frustrating, does not support that as its only conclusion...its an assumption...but I agree that it likely the bsp/pk3. That is based on my experience with DBPro, so its not real logic, either.

I am not map editing right now, so...I need to get you specifics from my toolchain to use in yours. Let me get some more info from you on this, jezza....refresh my memory as to the map editor you are using right now, and what exactly GDK is doing with your bsps.

Also, I have a couple of bsps that are just boxes that you can test, but it seems to me the trouble is with textures, not geometry necessarily. The textures that GDK doesn't support...like PCX and WAL will cause the textures not to load. My ImageMagick++ plug-in can convert PCX for you, and probably WAL, too...I'll check. TextureMaker can convert PCX, as well. TextureMaker is the second best investment I've made at TGC...a paint program that I can actually use to some benefit!

Tell you what...I'll make you a pk3 with some maps and textures, and you can test that....okay?
jinzai
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2008 14:59 Edited at: 3rd Apr 2008 15:27
Okay, I've got something I want you to try Jezza. Its a pk3 I got from PlanetQuake. Its pretty recent, it carries all of its textures in the pk3 in the proper format. It contains exactly one map, and its a really well done Quake III Arena map, with hardware lights, and some really outstanding artwork that the map maker did. It is called nightgallery, and it looks alot like a gallery. There is one texture that seems to be missing, but that serves to show you what that does to the map in GDK/DBPro. Its the roof of the upper level, and I think its probably a skybox, so that is easily fixed in DBPro. Skyboxes are entities, and there is some functionality missing in GDK/DBPro with respect to the entities.

I downloaded several recent pk3 maps from there, but most of them are built for QIII and mods, so they usually rely on those textures. If your map isn't loading, or your display just looks black, that is why in most cases.

If you open this file using WinZip, or any other zipfile utility, it will show you how a pk3 should look. Notice that the map is in the root directory. There is a directory called textures. That is where all of the textures are for this map. The bsp file gets built with that dependency in it...the texture paths. As you already know, they cannot be .WAL, or .PCX, or .STL so avoid those types whenever you can when using bsps in GDK/DBPro.

Here is a DBPro app that will load that map and you can push the camera around to see this guy's awesome artwork. I imagine that you could get the same thing using GDK.



...and also be aware that you get "spawned" at 0.0, 0.0, 0.0 by default, and that is not always a valid place in a bsp, so you might just fall into oblivion sometimes.

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jezza
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Location: Bham, UK
Posted: 4th Apr 2008 14:52
that worked fine. and i didn't even use your code, I used my code and jsut changed the filenames. which means it must be the files. I'll try and set GTK to the Q3A settings, but I'm not sure how well that will work because i dont have Q3A.
jezza
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Location: Bham, UK
Posted: 4th Apr 2008 15:02
hmmmm... ok. I made my own map, using the textures from your pk3 jsut to be safe, and I compiled and ran it. I got this message:
Quote: "Windows has triggered a breakpoint in Dark GDK - 3D Game1.exe.

This may be due to a corruption of the heap, which indicates a bug in Dark GDK - 3D Game1.exe or any of the DLLs it has loaded.

This may also be due to the user pressing F12 while Dark GDK - 3D Game1.exe has focus.

The output window may have more diagnostic information."

I pressed continue, and my map showed up, except for one triangle in every face was missing. The others worked fine, including collision.
jinzai
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Posted: 5th Apr 2008 09:21
I've had similar results. The triangle is probably wound in the wrong direction. QIII is left handed, iirc and also Y and Z are swapped...its openGL. I wouldn't swear it, but...maybe it is using a different primitive list type...like a trifan and DBPro assumes it is a tri list. I would even venture to say that it was the firlst triangle in each face.

I have been thinking about writing some tools to get this into some sort of workable system. Like those textures that are PCX. I could open the pk3, convert them inplace, and update the bsp. I know how to read a bsp, but I have no surviving code from that.

I have seen posts (old one) about reading the entities, and I think I will dredge that up, and get cracking.

Oh, and sorry to sound like an a$$ about the logic before. Definitely now, you can say...its the map!

Do you have a .MAP of that? (You can't go bsp to anything else well at all.) I am interested in this symptom. Does it work with your game engine that the editor uses, or are you not using HL/Quake, etc?

I am slowly getting Quark working again...my .NET is broken, and old...oddly enough, it makes Quark less stable. I am not a fan of Python as a development tool language at all, so I tend to use the hammer I have. I will definitely be writing some tools to help this out...I like bsps alot.
Cheers.
jezza
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Posted: 5th Apr 2008 13:41
Well since I compiled the map for Q3A, I'm not surprised it didn't run in wolf ET when I tried just now. I'm using GTK Radiant. Also the map I used for GDK would not work in Q3A anyway, becuase I didn't add a spawn entity. In theory though, with one it should work.
And yes, I agree BSPs rule. I dont see any alternatives for making a game without buying FPS creator, and with a bit of editting and entity support, you could make a very good system for using BSPs in Dark languages.
jason p sage
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Posted: 8th Apr 2008 04:10
But no terrain though right? (Don't know much about BSP except its very efficient at culling)

jinzai
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Posted: 8th Apr 2008 06:44 Edited at: 8th Apr 2008 06:44
...not in the sense you are probably thinking. bsps have terrain, but it is created using tools specific to bsp...i.e. Q3Radiant, GtkRadiant, Quark, etc.
jezza
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Posted: 8th Apr 2008 19:14
You can get terrain generators that export to BSP.
jason p sage
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Posted: 9th Apr 2008 02:52
Interesting. Very interesting - thanx for the responses.
Jason

jezza
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Posted: 9th Apr 2008 09:13
anyway jinzai, what would you like to see to look into this problem. Or do you know a fix yet?
jinzai
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Posted: 9th Apr 2008 09:37 Edited at: 9th Apr 2008 09:38
I am writing some bsp code in a plug-in to address some of the issues you are having, and some of the ones I have, as well.

So far, I am trying to examine the pk3, or bsp file...extract the texture names, and try to find them. In the case of pk3, it would stick them in the pk3 itself. For bsp, it would create the directory structure necessary, and modify the pk3. I have been spending alot of time developing an entity list by type. The entity list is a place that my maps have errors, and the spawn point would be nice to know when loading a bsp, for example. DBPro does use some of them. Somewhere there is a complete list, I just can't find it again. I had it in 2003 when I first started DX programming, but now I can't find it anywhere. I am using the source code from id instead.

The issue of the winding of tris is easiest to solve in the editor, but I am going to look into fixing it in the bsp itself. It should be easier than it appears; you don't have to create a renderable vertex buffer to do it. I think it is creating a primitive list that DBPro does not support. That might be an option in GtKRadiant, and the others. It needs to be a triangle list, and I think it is a trifan or tristrip.

I have found that alot of my troubles with OpenGL based code was the nVidia dll, nvoglnt.dll (openGL for nVidia video cards running under XP/NT OSes.) There is an update from December 07 that has repaired 3DWS, Quark and Quake III so far. (Those all use OpenGL.) This was in the form of a crash, btw. The Quake III is still a little borked, however, and I need to reconfigure it. I don't have my QIII disk here, so I will have to try it manually. (I've not done that with QIII.)

If you could post up the bsp with the missing tris, that would help. I could use it to write the code, and then maybe just provide code to check for and fix that inplace.
jezza
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Posted: 9th Apr 2008 20:18
here is the bsp. If you put it in the pk3 that you posted, the textures will work. And for entitity support, the most important thing I think would be doors, (but that would be quite hard?)

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jinzai
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Posted: 9th Apr 2008 21:52
Yes, I thought it might be possible to put it with textures using the pk3. That is what its there for, after all. I really like using the pk3 to carry all of the assets like that.

I think I will continue to develop utilities that can be used to create the proper pk3 file, or repair broken ones.

The primitive issue is more difficult, but still...I think I can manage that one, too.

The triggers for the doors...I've already found them. The trick there will be getting the things to open and close for us. The teleporting at least should be pretty easy. I have the QIII source, which is very helpful and educational.

Today, I got my QIII working and got totally p'wned by the AI. I only got her 1 time with that shotgun, which is pretty useless to an old guy with a kbd against AI with a BFG, or railgun.

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