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FPSC Classic Product Chat / FPSC - The next generation!

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Astro Chickster
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Posted: 5th May 2008 19:04
Look at what i did with fpsc using just 3dws, magic fps and fpsc.

I didnt actually place any lightmaps in the editor, 3d world studio already generated those.

Took about 10 secs to load.

The only things that failed were the pipes.

I placed the model pack 3 crates and pallets in the fpsc editor.

Must... kill... husband...'s obsession with star trek!
Astro Chickster
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Posted: 5th May 2008 19:05
Screen 1!

Must... kill... husband...'s obsession with star trek!

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Astro Chickster
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Posted: 5th May 2008 19:06 Edited at: 5th May 2008 19:06
Screen 2!

Thank you darimc for the instructions, thank you Aaagreen for the base map!

Must... kill... husband...'s obsession with star trek!

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Aaagreen
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Posted: 5th May 2008 19:14
Nice!

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Aaagreen
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Posted: 5th May 2008 19:18
Enemies dont seem to like the collision though...

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Aertic
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Posted: 5th May 2008 19:21
This is nothing new, this has been done before, but its nice to see you learn how to use it.

Nomad Soul
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Posted: 5th May 2008 21:07
Hi Astro Chickster

I remember seeing 3D world studio and the demo levels they have on the leadwerks site and thinking that would be the way forward for FPSC level development.

A lot of people have told of collision detection, texture, and lighting issues if lights added manually in the editor.

You appear to have done a good job exporting your level into FPSC especially with the 3dws lightmapping in tact etc.

Would you mind sharing the method you used e.g. export options from 3dws, export settings for magic fps and anything you may have done with the entities .fpe.

Despite the fact this has been seen before I don't think it was with the same amount of success as you've had and I agree with you this could be a genuine way to build more interesting geometry in levels outside segments if it can be done without the issues mentioned.
Aaagreen
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Posted: 5th May 2008 21:07
If it's not new, why does no-one use it? The player collision is fine, and only the enemies dont like it.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 5th May 2008 21:19
Well. To be fair if theres enemy collision problems thats kind of bad news for using this as genuine option.

I guess its the same things as with terrain. You can create the mesh, texture it and get it into FPSC with 100% working player collision but not for enemies.

So basically the only thing holding us back from making terrain and 3dws maps is how enemies collision works with geometry.

I think this should be moved a lot higher up Lee's list of updates if thats the case.

@Astro Chickster - Have you tested your 3dws map with enemies in it yet and has this been successful?
darimc
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Posted: 5th May 2008 21:24
No problem.
Quote: "Thank you darimc for the instructions"


He used my method.
Quote: "anything you may have done with the entities .fpe."




Aertic
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Posted: 5th May 2008 21:25
Quote: "If it's not new, why does no-one use it? The player collision is fine, and only the enemies dont like it."


I've seen oleg(strelok) use it, Its on his YouTube account, "3dws with fpsc."

Nomad Soul
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Posted: 5th May 2008 22:16
Quote: "He used my method."


Cool. I've just looked through the available threads on this and can't see your method posted. Can you elaborate?

Quote: "I've seen oleg(strelok) use it, Its on his YouTube account, "3dws with fpsc.""


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twic3tKIBgw

Yeah it looks cool but again no enemies so this still hasn't been aproven a genuine option as far as I can see.

I'm going ahead and emailing Lee about enemy collision and why it doesn't work with geometry meshes which have been imported into the engine.
darimc
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Posted: 5th May 2008 22:27
Look under my thread asking about multi textured entity. It is in one of my posts near the end of the thread.
Quote: "Cool. I've just looked through the available threads on this and can't see your method posted. Can you elaborate?"




Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th May 2008 01:33
Ok, thanks Darimc

I had to have a quick go at this myself just to see whats up. This is what I did.

- Using 3dws, I threw together a room with a bunch of geometry, CSG holes punched into it and used about 5 or 6 textures over the various geometry.

- Then I placed a couple of lights into the map and then rendered them producing some nice lightmapping into the scene.

- I then exported the map as .X and put that file along with the 6 textures in a seperate folder.

- Then I exported the map again as .DBO and placed that file and the 4 lightmap files produced in .BMP format into the same folder.

- Finally I imported the model into Entity Workshop and exported with polygon collision producing a .fpe and such in the FPSC folder directory.

- Then I placed all my output files from 3dws into the same folder as the .fpe produced by entity workshop and made sure the model reference in the .fpe was correct and left the texture field blank to signify multi textured entity.

- I was then pleasantly surprised to find all had worked and I could clearly see my room present, textured and pre shadow mapped when loading into the FPSC map editor (see attached pic)

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th May 2008 01:36
- Unfortunately after loading a test level with the player start marker in the room the model loaded but the textures had got screwed up e.g. the lightmapping appeared to have left the building and there were some UV seam issues where I had used CSG punching e.g. the ceiling is most noticeable of this.

See attached pic

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th May 2008 01:47
- Then I placed a couple of enemies in the room and they both shot at me and didn't fall through the floor but were both doing some crazy syncronised jumping on the spot.

See attached pic for FPSC sci fi character olympics

Also the player collision whilst working well, I became stuck in places and had to crouch and move away from that area to become free again.

Seriously though if the collision bugs for player and enemies could be ironed out this probably would be the best way to create levels in FPSC. 3DWS is really intuitive to use, I would say even as intuitive as painting levels in the FPSC editor itself. I'm definately emailing Lee on this 1 now.

* If anyone can help with how the textures and lightmapping got screwed up from looking fine in the editor to how they look in game that would be cool. I haven't added any lights in the editor, I've only used to pre lit texture data from 3dws

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th May 2008 04:05
Ok

Probably shouldn't have persisted with this for another 2 hours but I've now managed to fix the texture rendering issue which also added my lightmap data from 3DWS, made the UV mapping seams go away and improved the player collision. Maybe it was worth it.

See attached pic

I've also noticed the entity can be made static and still use all the multiple textures exported from 3DWS including the light mapping data.

As far as my findings go this is a potentially awesome feature for FPSC level design and 3DWS also has spotlights in addition to omni lights as used in the FPSC map editor which gives you more lighting options.

The only drawback I can see at the moment is the enemy collision issues which still remained after I resolved all the other issues I had initially.

I might try the transparent floor segment trick but don't like the idea of setting up special cases for enemies, its bound to be really glitchy.

If theres any modders out there than understand FPSC enemy collision dynamics PLEASE fix this so we can all benefit from importing maps.

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Astro Chickster
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Posted: 6th May 2008 12:36
A good add-on to fpsc v2 maybe...

Must... kill... husband...'s obsession with star trek!
Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 6th May 2008 16:14 Edited at: 6th May 2008 16:18
Quote: "If it's not new, why does no-one use it?"

Because you don't need it.

Quote: "I would say even as intuitive as painting levels in the FPSC editor itself."

That is my point. It is very easy to paint your map in the FPSC editor.

Why go through all of that trouble
just to add colision problems to the enemies?

I see nothing in those pictures that you can't create in FPSC with segments.

What is the benefit to using this third party software instead of the FPSC map editor, the added cost or the extra steps involved?

Don't forget to visit Conjured Entertainment

Aaagreen
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Posted: 6th May 2008 16:55
Because conjured, fpsc atkes AGES to load a big level with full lightmaps, high-quality shadows and high res textures. With 3dws however, you can build an almost exact repleca of a full level, however the only time you have to wait for even higher wuality lightmaps is when 3dws builds them it's self, there's no actual wait in fpsc. And more is possible with 3dws than fpsc segments. Even if you want a working 3dws level with working enemies, a few invisible floor entities/segments will fix enemy collision. The extra time it takes to make a 3dws level is worth it for the end quality.

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Plystire
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Posted: 7th May 2008 00:09
Regarding lightmap "loading":

FPSC only creates the lightmaps when testing/building a game. After that, it no longer needs to generate lightmaps because it already has them made and simply loads them into the level.

I think the trouble that's caused by having to create invisible floor segments/walls and put them into the correct places (which may not even be possible is you have a sloping portion in your 3dws map) is more than the trouble caused by creating the segments designed for FPSC.


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Black Terror
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Posted: 7th May 2008 01:20
Hey, I have 3DWS and i was wondering how you convert it to FPSC. Does it merge all textures or are multiple textures assigned to the entire map?

Its pretty important, thanks.

Nomad Soul
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Posted: 8th May 2008 01:41
@Black Terror

Quote: "Hey, I have 3DWS and i was wondering how you convert it to FPSC. Does it merge all textures or are multiple textures assigned to the entire map?"


Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them. Stretch out with your feelings...........................

Multiple textures are assigned to the entire map and yes its pretty important.................. You see, you can do it.

I thought I may aswell go ahead and take a look at some of the 3DWS features and what they could do for FPSC. It turns out 3DWS has some interesting terrain editing tools and more importantly has dedicated terrain lightmapping which allows for unified lighting in scenes for importing into FPSC.

Here is a screenshot showing how 3DWS could be used to make seamless pre lit indoor and outdoor terrain maps which can be loaded as an FPSC level as quickly as a commercial game.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 8th May 2008 01:54 Edited at: 8th May 2008 01:56
See how the building exterior from the previous screenshot can be entered and exited seamlessly for some interesting multiplayer team deathmatch using Lemurv2 free edition.

Notice the consistent lightmapping and terrain visible as fashioned in 3DWS. People could create far more complex maps with even better lightmapping (only using 256x256 and high) with this technology.

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Aaagreen
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Posted: 8th May 2008 18:10
Looks like a good map. Lightmapping looks brilliant at ultra high.

Formerly Bum Fat Cheese
Astro Chickster
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Posted: 10th May 2008 12:04
3dws can also be good for scenery. Looks at this barn I whipped up. Note the spotlight lighting... another great 3dws effect. The scale is a bit off, but it's still good.

Must... kill... husband...'s obsession with star trek!

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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 12th May 2008 16:03
I dont own 3dws....but!

So its basically this...you dont place lightmarkers...
since within 3dws you bake the lighting in the textures.
But than you would have hundreds of textures am i right?
The loading time would be improved (a lot).
but the size of the game would be sky high.

Also...if you make a level with 3dws...import it into FPSC.
Test it...put some enemies in it entities and some weapons etc...

Than those would be all brighten up am i right?
Especially the weapons and enemies.
Like if you created a sewer or a dungeon which are dark.
Than the weapon you are holding would be lighten up because of the ambience FPSC is using.
The same goes with the enemies.

3dws sounds really good indeed!
When it comes to loading time...and profesional quality.

Aaagreen
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Posted: 12th May 2008 20:24
Quote: "Like if you created a sewer or a dungeon which are dark.
Than the weapon you are holding would be lighten up because of the ambience FPSC is using."


Unless you turn the ambience down. Unfortunately, fpsc objects dont react with 3dws lighting

Formerly Bum Fat Cheese
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Posted: 12th May 2008 20:26
might i suggest removing the floor and adding an FPSC one? helps the collision methinks

Aaagreen
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Posted: 12th May 2008 20:32
great idea, hence the
Quote: "a few invisible floor entities/segments will fix enemy collision."


Formerly Bum Fat Cheese
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Posted: 12th May 2008 20:48
Quote: "Unless you turn the ambience down. Unfortunately, fpsc objects dont react with 3dws lighting"

But than the textures that 3dws exported will all be to dark.
Also again...in darker places your weapon would be dark...but in lighter places it still would be dark.

Aaagreen
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Posted: 12th May 2008 20:57
Yeah, i suppose you should set the ambience in between light and dark.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 12th May 2008 20:59
Quote: "But than you would have hundreds of textures am i right?"


You do end up with a bunch more textures. They are exported from 3dws as bmp so not compressed but I think the difference between the total output size of the additional textures compared with the lightmapping output file size from a decent level lightmapped in FPSC would be not that great.

Quote: "Than those would be all brighten up am i right?"


Kind of but the FPSC ambience level does not affect the imported 3dws geometry that has the light and shadow mapping burned in and you can use trigger zones to change level ambience on the fly. Therefore if you went into a sewer you would just need to put a triggerzone to lower the ambience as required then object entities and characters etc would change brightness appropriately to the pre lit scene exported from 3dws.

Also Lee confirmed to me in an email that terrain is being looked at by TGC and will be made fully supported by FPSC which indicates to me importing 3dws maps will be a potentially viable solution although using invisible segment floors is a possible way to go.

Rolf imports his levels from 3DMax in much the same way but 3dws is a lot cheaper and can still produce impressive dynamically lit and multi textured levels. I think he cuts his up and imports them as segments to get around the collision detection issues but not sure if there is a similar feature in 3dws.

Level loading times are really impressive. You can test and retest your levels without having to wait for all the lightmapping calculations to be made everytime you add or remove a segment or re position a light and this obviously benefits the player loading your final build too.

I'm all for importing maps. We know its possible now its just a question of how much support TGC are prepared to give to it.

Unfortunately this won't be possible with FPSC X10 as you can only use 1 texture per mesh group for performance reasons and importing levels requires multiple textures.
Cheese Cake
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Posted: 12th May 2008 21:15
Quote: "You do end up with a bunch more textures. They are exported from 3dws as bmp so not compressed but I think the difference between the total output size of the additional textures compared with the lightmapping output file size from a decent level lightmapped in FPSC would be not that great."


But...if someone would make a whole game with 12 to 18 levels.
How much mb will the textures be?
I mean if i put them all together...in one folder.
Cause it really looks good...and like you said.
The loading time is impressive.

But if someone would make a game...and for example:
Level 1 = apartment.
Level 2 = sewer.
Level 3 = Warehouse.
Level 4 = Airport.
Level 5 = Jungle.
Level 6 = Cave.
Level 7 = Lab.

Cause all of those levels would use different textures.
So that means you would have a lot of textures for 1 level....
But if you would make several levels...all play in a different location.
Therefore you cant share textures for each level...and all those textures together would be massive.
(i mean the number of textures...not the mb)

Quote: "Kind of but the FPSC ambience level does not affect the imported 3dws geometry that has the light and shadow mapping burned in"

Hmmm than thats very good news...but how is this possible?
Did 3dws calculated this into the X-file?
So FPSC cant bake another shadow on it?

Like if i would create a whole level with 3dws import it into FPSC.
Of course bake the lighting in 3dws and after that i would place a lightmarker in FPSC.
So the lightmarker FPSC uses doesnt react to the mesh that 3dws exported?
If that is true...than thats very good...but also kind of...hmm not good.
Cause when i would place a ambience triggerzone. it would look unnaturally, cause it would all of sudden be to bright.
(if you would walk with a weapon that is)

Aaagreen
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Posted: 12th May 2008 21:40
No, 3dws calculates this in a dbo file. Fps creator generates .dbo files, with all the current lightmapping details for the levl. However, if a dbo is already made, the current object cant be changed by lighting. I think...

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Posted: 12th May 2008 22:15
Quote: "No, 3dws calculates this in a dbo file. Fps creator generates .dbo files, with all the current lightmapping details for the levl. However, if a dbo is already made, the current object cant be changed by lighting. I think..."

Aih okey...well than that is good news.

Nomad Soul
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Posted: 12th May 2008 22:17 Edited at: 12th May 2008 22:19
Quote: "But...if someone would make a whole game with 12 to 18 levels. How much mb will the textures be?"


Good point! However the number of textures isn't important as I haven't yet found a limit to the number of textures that can be applied and imported for a single model in FPSC.

The file size of the additional textures is only relevant to the size of the executable for your game, it won't affect the loading times. However you make a good point that you wouldn't be able to share textures across levels.

Quote: "Hmmm than thats very good news...but how is this possible? Did 3dws calculated this into the X-file? So FPSC cant bake another shadow on it?"


Aagreen is correct. The exported lightmapping files are called from the exported .DBO from 3DWS which is why they have to remain as .bmp. However your standard textures can all be .tga or .dds which allows for the usual amount of compression possible with FPSC.

Because FPSC has the lightmapping information in the DBO it will apply this to the model and does not get affected by changes to the level ambience lighting there after.

Quote: "Cause when i would place a ambience triggerzone. it would look unnaturally, cause it would all of sudden be to bright."


The idea is that you would light your scene entirely with 3DWS for all static geometry and bake the lighting and shadows in to be exported into FPSC.

You would only then introduce dynamic entities for things like moveable objects / guns / keys and characters etc for which triggerzones can be used to brighten up or darken dynamic entities to suit the lightmapping already baked into the 3DWS scene.

The dynamic object lighting might look a little out of place but thats always been a slight issue with FPSC.
Plystire
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Posted: 13th May 2008 00:09
So, what about an alleyway at night? What would it look like to have an entity run underneath a lamp post?

He'd remain dark and destroy your ever so cared about "realism". You can't just go puttin' around with the ambience setting because that effects ALL entities in the level.

I suppose you COULD put FPSC lightmarkers into the right places to get them to shine correctly. But then FPSC would try to generate lightmaps for the level, which would never really be used but would be looked for and required for your game to load.


I don't like the idea of using 3dws when it is clearly not supported for FPSC without loads of drawbacks, or workarounds needing to be taken. I suppose it is good for making a good looking level, but making a functional it is not.


The one and only,


Nomad Soul
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Posted: 13th May 2008 02:49 Edited at: 13th May 2008 04:20
Quote: "So, what about an alleyway at night? What would it look like to have an entity run underneath a lamp post?

He'd remain dark and destroy your ever so cared about "realism". You can't just go puttin' around with the ambience setting because that effects ALL entities in the level."


I was only giving a solution to the ambience situation if people want to control the overal amount of ambience for entities within differently lit areas of a 3dws imported map.

Anyway your 'alleyway at night' scenario is perfectly possible to create within an imported 3DWS map. You can add dynamic lights to allow for specific lighting cases where dynamic entities or characters are concerned. I did say it was only 3dws geometry that wasn't affected by FPSC lights.

See my attached screenshot showing dynamically lit characters within an imported 3dws map.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 13th May 2008 02:51
And another.

This time demonstrating realistic and unified lighting for an interior area imported from 3dws with dynamic lighting for both character and gun.

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Plystire
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Posted: 13th May 2008 09:19
Quote: "I suppose you COULD put FPSC lightmarkers into the right places to get them to shine correctly. But then FPSC would try to generate lightmaps for the level, which would never really be used but would be looked for and required for your game to load."


Did you not read that part?


The one and only,


Nomad Soul
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Posted: 13th May 2008 10:19
Hi Plystire

Yeah I did see that but didn't understand what you meant by 'would never really used'. They won't be used on the geometry but would certainly be used for dynamic entities although I agree its a bit of a work around which your not in favour of.

Being the programming guru that you are, how about taking a look at the source code for enemy collision and seeing if you can do anything with that. I'll be happy to upload a 3dws map for you to test with.

Here's another pic showing how entities can be affected with dynamic lights within imported 3dws maps.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 13th May 2008 10:23
And another.

I'm going to have a go implementing some segments next to see how much enemy collision can be improved with that.

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Aaagreen
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Posted: 18th May 2008 16:01 Edited at: 18th May 2008 16:02
Now that's cool. I set a multiple textured object to static, and the collision was fine, and the only thing that didnt work were the lightmaps. All the textures were in the right place. STATIC!

EDIT: The pipes work now as well!

Formerly Bum Fat Cheese

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