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Geek Culture / Leadwerks homepage, did I read that right?!!!!

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APEXnow
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Posted: 18th Jul 2003 21:36
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I recently popped over to Leadwerks to see any progress on Cartography Shop v3. Jeez!!, I'm bloody glad I bought v2 when I did, have you seen the price of a fully registered copy when v3 is released?

Quote: "Distribution licenses are available on a per-project basis. Full license of CShop.exe, light.exe, and all associated files, without sources, may be purchased for $1,000 plus 12% royalities pending approval of your project. No source license is presently available."


In British Sterling, that's approx £500-600 odd! My eyes almost popped out of their sockets!
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andrew11
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Posted: 18th Jul 2003 22:37 Edited at: 18th Jul 2003 22:45
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$1,000 + 12%????

That's insane, Why would anyone with that kind of money to spend be using CS at all??? It better be good for that price.

[Edit] I think if you buy CS2, you get an upgrade to CS3 for free or at least less that $1000. Should I buy CS2? Is it really that good? I don't have much time left!

"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
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MikeS
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Posted: 18th Jul 2003 22:52
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$1000!?!?!?!

forget Cs3, is it's that much.I was considering buying it if it was close to $100-150, but I guess I'll stick to free editors, or making my own.

Yellow:Wanna publish my game microsoft, cuz i no u rich so...Can I have my bag of money now?
Microsoft: *snicker* Tip of the month-Microsoft will never(probebly) publish your game.
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lcfcfan
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Posted: 18th Jul 2003 23:26
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CS2 is very limited indeed but 3 looks better, no way though is it worth a grand!

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Rob K
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Posted: 18th Jul 2003 23:26 Edited at: 18th Jul 2003 23:31
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CS3 doesn't cost that much to buy I believe. That is just if you want to commerically distribute what you make (so Shareware devs. can probably get away without the license). I reckon that CShop3 will be looking about £60-90 for a shareware / freeware license.

And yes, that is a ridiculous amount. On the other hand, if people pay a lot, they think they are getting a lot. With a really professional website, I suppose Josh might be able to get one or two customers. Clearly CS3 is targeted at a very different user-base.

Consider this, some development companies pay £5000 or something crazy for a 3DS Max license from Discreet. They could probably justify the cost.

Personally I think it is a mistake from a marketing point of view to use the CShop name, as people will associate it with the £35-odd earlier versions - rather than thinking of it as a new product, and from the posts above - this is clearly demonstrated. I think a completely new name (eg: Cartography Studio MAX) would be better. The word "shop" associates it with products such as PSP 8, which are the £100, semi-pro / amateur level, not the £500 plus SERIOUS level.

However, with the CSG commands coming in U6, plus Kevil's lightmapper - maybe a few simplistic maplet-style world creators will pop up, which will be ample for most DBP users.

Personally I use Maplet for both Blitz3D and DBP worlds atm, its easier to use than CShop.


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 18th Jul 2003 23:48
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Discreet charge $3,200 ($1,500) for Max5 however they don't chagre you for the game itself...
if you think about it, most game that will use CS3 will make over $5,000 which would then translate back to Josh earning over $600 of that.
which is ontop of your $1,000 title license (per platform if you read)

personally i use GTKRadiant for my BSP worlds, it cheap (free), i can use it on Unix/Windows. to me it seems like a more sensible choice as there is no license stuff for it, plus the license for Q3/HL/UT level formats isn't added onto these prices.

i mean think about it, you use a BSP world in UT format you have to also pay Epic a royalty... why not just use a free editor for it or even like just by UT2K3 which has the editor free for a matter of $45

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andrew11
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Posted: 19th Jul 2003 00:27 Edited at: 19th Jul 2003 00:28
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If it is not aimed toward us then why'd Josh post about it?

"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
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Rob K
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Posted: 19th Jul 2003 00:31
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Because we are shareware developers, so we won't have to pay the $1000


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Rob K
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Posted: 19th Jul 2003 00:32
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JFYI, TGC (formerly DarkBASIC Software) charge £500 for a commercial license for product made with The 3D GameMaker / using media from The 3D GameMaker.


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andrew11
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Posted: 19th Jul 2003 00:42
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I EMailed Josh and he said this:

Quote: "Andrew:

This was just a little joke/test. I didn't realize I left it up.

A license to distribute it might cost thousands, but to just buy it and use it is the regular price, $40.

I'd better go fix that.
"


Horray!!!

"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
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MikeS
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Posted: 19th Jul 2003 00:47
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lol, problem solved, for the most part.



Yellow:Wanna publish my game microsoft, cuz i no u rich so...Can I have my bag of money now?
Microsoft: *snicker* Tip of the month-Microsoft will never(probebly) publish your game.
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Binary Moon
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Posted: 19th Jul 2003 00:56 Edited at: 19th Jul 2003 01:01
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Edit - just seen the response. Ho humm...

Re-read that paragraph. The key word is DISTRIBUTION. There is no license fee. Any models you create with CShop can be used in any game. The piece at the top of the page is for people who want to license the editor for use and DISTRIBUTION with their game. This would mean that people would be able to modify cshop specifically for their own game and then distribute it with the game much like the tools you get with Unreal.

Anyway - where did you see this? I have just had a quick look and don't see it anywhere.

Quote: "Personally I use Maplet for both Blitz3D and DBP worlds atm, its easier to use than CShop."


In your opinion. Personally I prefer the way Cshop and Worldcraft work. In fact Mark said in his last worklog that he would be changing Maplet to be an object based modellor since that is far more flexible.

Quote: "personally i use GTKRadiant for my BSP worlds, it cheap (free), "


Yep - all you have to do is pay an extortionate fee to id whenever you use tools (that involve there code) to compile the vis and lightmap data.

"why not just use a free editor for it or even like just by UT2K3 which"

-- The cost of the editor has nothing to do wqith it. Its the compiler that costs the money to license.

I'm going to email Josh to get this sorted out officially.

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andrew11
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Posted: 19th Jul 2003 01:14 Edited at: 19th Jul 2003 01:14
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What??????

You don't understand.

APEXnow was checking the leadwerks [href]http://www.leadwerks.com/ [/href] site which said this:

Quote: "Distribution licenses are available on a per-project basis. Full license of CShop.exe, light.exe, and all associated files, without sources, may be purchased for $1,000 plus 12% royalities pending approval of your project. No source license is presently available."


Now, most of us assumed that meant distribution of OUR games. I immediataly Emailed Josh, the creator of Cshop, and he replied with this:
Quote: "Andrew:

This was just a little joke/test. I didn't realize I left it up.

A license to distribute it might cost thousands, but to just buy it and use it is the regular price, $40.

I'd better go fix that."


He changed the site to what it is now soon after.

"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
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JoshK
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Posted: 19th Jul 2003 01:17
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Sorry about that. I was testing a site, and just wrote a bunch of crap to fill it up. I didn't realize people actually went to that site.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 19th Jul 2003 01:23
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Quote: "-- The cost of the editor has nothing to do wqith it. Its the compiler that costs the money to license"


check the UT2K3 license for thier compilers though, it is under a No$made=No$Paid scheme...
and the GTK Compilers for HL/UT/Q3 based levels are completely inhouse developed with no strings attached use. (which is why GTK Radiant is an Open Source GPL product )

though not alot of people bother to check the fine print for these things. The editors are actually released as PACKAGES not as just the editor + compilers... i mean although they could say "compiler + free IDE" they don't because the Editor is also an intricate part of these formats.

you could always use Milkshape as an editor for levels if you wanted or Qoole - but the point isn't about JUST the editor, but the compilers at the same time. They're packages part'n'parcel.

Not many people understand that to get around licences for Worldcraft all you have to do is delete the Valve compilers and put in the Zoner ones instead. So when i post thinks here about that then thats why i say these are technically free... because they are.
and to be honest i've always hated Worldcrafts development style, i'm sure anyone who developed using Qoole instead of it in the early days of Quake would agree that its and overly awekard product to use.

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JoshK
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Posted: 19th Jul 2003 01:25
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Incidentally, GMAX is NOT free. You are violating Discreet's terms of use.

3ds max might sell for $3000, but you cannot distribute it. A GMAX license costs something like $8,000 to distribute to your users. I called them and asked when it came out. The Quake 3 tools cost $10,000.

A license to give away a free version of the editor is not the same as buying it yourself and making things with it.


However, neither this or that earlier mistake are an indication of what such a license might cost for CS3.

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JoshK
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Posted: 19th Jul 2003 01:28
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I also want to make it clear that YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO PAY ANY ROYALITIES OR LICENSES TO USE CSHOP IN YOUR COMMERCIAL GAME. IF YOU OWN IT, WHAT YOU MAKE IS YOURS.

Clear? Somehow I know someone will misquote me.

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lcfcfan
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Posted: 19th Jul 2003 01:30
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hey josh can i beta test cart shop version 3 i have 2.8 already?

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Rob K
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Posted: 19th Jul 2003 02:29
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Quote: "In your opinion. Personally I prefer the way Cshop and Worldcraft work."


Of course, all applications are like that - a matter of preference. Partly one of the reasons why so many 3D modellers successfully exist.


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APEXnow
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Posted: 19th Jul 2003 13:41
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Ok, been working all nite so missed most of the postings here until now. Eitherway, Josh has explained the situation and I'm happy with that . It was some joke though, I almost swallowed my teeth.... they ain't even false LOL.

Anywayz, cheers Josh for the update

APEX!

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