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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Mod Framerate Comparison

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xyzz1233
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 03:12
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I did a mod performance comparison with Ply's Mod, S4Mod and Unmodded 1.09. I got some very interesting results, especially with S4Mod, so I decided to post them.



I'm puzzled as to why S4Mod did so badly. I thought S4Mod would be right at the top, followed by Ply's Mod, and then 1.09. Even weirder yet is the fact that S4Mod beat Ply's Mod on the lowest settings only because of the FPS cap.

Anyone care to share your thoughts?

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Thraxas
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 03:16
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You did all these tests with the same level?
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xyzz1233
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 03:17
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Yeah. Weird, huh?

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Rampage
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 03:19 Edited at: 31st Aug 2008 03:20
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For me s4mod is waaay better than all of them...Plus you forgetting one thing...the fps in those mods (except plys I think) is timer based...Meaning that the game will always run at the same speed at 5fps or even 500fps...So it doesn't really matter if it is lower....Version 1.09 I get around 12 fps...s4mod around 50 fps...

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bond1
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 03:19
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That's cool, GunnR. I've always been a little skeptical of the mod performance "gains". It's nice to see some unbiased comparisons. No disrespect to the modder's at all, I think what they're doing is totally awesome. But I always kind of suspected that it was probably easier to implement new features than to increase core performance. Again, no disrespect to the modders at all intended here, I certainly couldn't do what they are doing.

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"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
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gorba flamingo
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 03:20 Edited at: 31st Aug 2008 03:21
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1
if there are no triggers or charicters in the level you can use it in any mod and switch to any other mod, ive found that out and have been doing it forever.
2
how did you get dynamic lights to work on s4mod? or were they just not showing up?
3
computer specs?
EDIT
lastly 4
did you do any comparising with the timer off?

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Rampage
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 03:20
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Timer based!!!
No one gets it...

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bond1
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 03:23
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I get timer-based. But that just means it runs "choppier", it doesn't work magic, right?

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"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
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xyzz1233
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 03:26 Edited at: 31st Aug 2008 03:27
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@ Rampage:
Actually, none of these mods are timerbased. S4Real says his mod isn't timerbased, it just has timers to increase framerate. No idea what that means, though...

@ Bond1:
Erm... I'm not Gunn3r... I just have his signature.
Anyway, I really agree with you. I barely have any idea how one would implement any kind of timerbased system, or S4's timer thing.

@ Gorba Flamingo:
1. I already knew that... Anyway, there are no characters guns or triggers in this level...

2. I turned dynamic lights on in the setup.ini...

3.
AMD Athlon X2 3800 (Dual Core 2GHz)
2GB Ram
GeForce 6100

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gorba flamingo
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 03:28 Edited at: 31st Aug 2008 03:29
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timer based means
that the game will not go above a certain framrate for example s4mod is set at 38, airmod is 33, etc
no timer means
the framrate can jump to watever evel it wants for example in s4mod 301 (high score on my computer) in airmod 65, etc

you can disable the timer by hitting a key, i think its z or x, but thats in another post

edit
thanks for helping me with the dynamic lights, also i knew u knew i was explaining it to others, i dont know who though!

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 03:34
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No it's not, that's a framerate cap silly......

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gorba flamingo
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 03:36
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i dont know what there called i just know there good!

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xyzz1233
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 03:53
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@ Gorba Flamingo:
Timerbased means making animations play for a certain number of seconds, rather than a certain number of frames, so the game will run just as fast at 2fps, 20, and 200, or something like that.

An FPS cap is what you mean.

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Gunn3r
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 07:59
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@bond1, An easy mistake to make, seeing as a good deal of members on these forums have a Gunn3r Games signature. I didn't force any of it. I merely put up the code on the GG Forums and look what happened...

@xyzz1233, Thanks a bunch for this chart. Out of all of it, it looks as though unmodded has the best framerate, but lacks the features. Personally, I'm like bond1. It's not that I don't appreciate what the modders are doing, it's just I don't really have a need for more features until they are officially implemented. I could wait a while for water, or go mess with X10... Great chart.

Gunn3r Games
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bond1
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 08:36
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Oops my mistake xyzz1233, want to give credit where it's due.

It's my understanding that timer-based systems just increase the percieved speed of the game. Meaning that you will always be able to run from one end of the room to another in the same time period, but as the frame-rate drops, it just looks choppier, without actually slowing down, or "Goldeneye syndrome" as I like to call it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

A timer-based system IS very cool though, I'd much rather have that than feeling like you're walking through mud all the time. And yeah, I'd also like to see some mod features implemented into the official version.

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Thraxas
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 09:33 Edited at: 31st Aug 2008 09:34
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Quote: "I'd also like to see some mod features implemented into the official version.
"


Personally I want Airslide's iron sights implemented so I can use Errant's guns with all the new features added after 1.07
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Rampage
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 10:06
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Quote: "Personally I want Airslide's iron sights implemented so I can use Errant's guns with all the new features added after 1.07"

You already can with official...You just gotta know how...
Just re-set the animation ranges in gunspec.txt

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Thraxas
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 11:57
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Quote: "You already can with official...You just gotta know how...
Just re-set the animation ranges in gunspec.txt"


Yes Errant wrote an excellent tutorial type thing when I asked how to use it in the normal version of FPSC, but it just doesn't work the same way as in Airmod, at least I've never been able to get it to work in the same way
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Defy
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 12:08
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Thanks bond1 for your insite. Makes alot of sense, as the same go's with video footage recorded on old cameras droping frames. Clips would double up frames to correct itself to fit the duration.

xyzz1233, nice table. I like this type of info. You have done well.


Question, this info is based on U/M 1.09 version. What version do people prefer above v1.07/v1.08, that gives a all round good balance performance?
Is v1.09 the go at the present time?

Thanks in advance.
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xyzz1233
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 17:20
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@ Gunn3r:
1.09 only appears to have the best framerate because Ply's mod is capped at 34 fps. If I were able to uncap the framerate in a built game, then I think that Ply's Mod would have the highest, seeing as it beats 1.09 on the highest settings.

@ Bond1:
No problem.

Yeah, about the timerbased system, you hit the nail right on the head... Talking about walking through mud, I've noticed that either the walking speed in Ply's mod is slower than 1.09 and S4Mod, or 1.09 and S4Mod have higher walking speeds, even at the same framerate.

@ Thraxas & Rampage:
Well, I think Lee is going to implement AirMod into the migration, at least I've heard. He's already put some AirMod things into 1.13, so I'm guessing that he's gonna put more in...

@ Deca:
Thanks!
Well, I personally prefer 1.09. We don't get any of the special features of 1.09 or 1.08, like headshots, but we do get the TGC Store.

I'm rather unsure which update, 1.08, or 1.09 gives the best performance... People complained that 1.09 had horrible performance after beta 9 or 10 of 1.09, but these tests showed that 1.09 is capable of very good performance. Maybe I'll compare 1.08 to 1.09 sometime.

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Airslide
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 19:22
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Quote: "It's my understanding that timer-based systems just increase the percieved speed of the game. Meaning that you will always be able to run from one end of the room to another in the same time period, but as the frame-rate drops, it just looks choppier, without actually slowing down, or "Goldeneye syndrome" as I like to call it. Correct me if I'm wrong."


That's basically it. When FPSC drops down to 20 fps in the stock engine, it feels as if it's only going 2 thirds the speed it should (so basically slow-motion). However a modification with a timer based system is like X10 - it compensates for the speed loss by moving things further each frame, making it appear the same. Every AAA engine does this, and it's silly FPSC didn't from the start IMO.

Another thing - this isn't really a proper test of Stock Vs. Mod. The mods are made in 1.07. 1.08 and up having improvements to the portal visibility system. As I recall, 1.09 was much faster in that respect but introduced bugs regarding vent ducts and what-not aswell.

Since you aren't using 107, we can't tell for sure if Ply improved or degraded the speed of his modification. Also, what version of S4Mod is being used? Is it the one with the water feature? If so, then the multiple cameras being used for the water are likely the cause of the performance drop. Yet another inconsistency that if it is the case then completely throws the results off.

Quote: "You already can with official...You just gotta know how...
Just re-set the animation ranges in gunspec.txt"


You can get the ironsight view without AirMod, but you can't switch back and forth. You'd end up with ironsights all the time - and if you modify the positioning a bit, you might be able to get a Wolf3D/Doom style weapons position.

Anyways, the overall "performance boost" that people claim modifications get is mainly a mis-interpretation of my timer system. Of course, Errant found out that just compiling it on the public version of DBP seems to improve raycasting among other things, although it breaks brass and ambient lighting (among other things ).

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 19:59
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Lol!

Ply's Mod allows yu to edit the player's speed anywho...and it has a SYNCRATE=XX command to set the frame cap......

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xyzz1233
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 20:14 Edited at: 31st Aug 2008 20:24
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I recently did another small test with more dynamic objects. The test was similar to the 1280x1024 ALL ON test, but with more dynamic objects to have shadows drawn.

S4Mod got an average fps of 11.355, 1.09 got 17.226 fps, and Ply's Mod got 19.142.

S4Mod seems either able to cope with the shadows very well, or something else is bottlenecking the framerate, which is the most plausible answer...

@ CG:
It does? I'll test with the syncrate set to 100 on the lowest settings.

@ Airslide:
You're completely right. However, I was looking for what solutions would be best for high performance, not necessarally a stock vs mod test. However, I'll test with 1.07 and S4Mod 1.9 and see what happens.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 21:22
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It does...

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s4real
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 22:06
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Nice chart, this has made me re look at the speed issues within v2.1a, for best performance v1.9 is your best option if you want to use s4mod.

best s4real

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Airslide
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 23:46
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Quote: "However, I was looking for what solutions would be best for high performance, not necessarally a stock vs mod test."


That's sort of like comparing Doom 3 to Doom 1. Doom 1 runs a hell of a lot faster on most computers (well, at least if you're using a port that un-caps the frame rate). But Doom 3 has more to offer and has to do a lot more. S4Mod has water, which can be intensive on your frame rate. Stock does not have water.

Ultimately, what I'm saying is that these results are misleading. You can't compare a newer product with modifications of an older version and get an accurate representation of how much the modification speeds up or slows down the game engine.

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Little Bill
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Posted: 1st Sep 2008 00:09
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Yeah, you tell 'im!

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meteorite
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Posted: 1st Sep 2008 04:37
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Also, while using the same level is a good way to compare framerates, you have to consider the long run. Ply Mod has a lot of scripting capabilities, and is what the mod is based around. So when you start throwing a lot of ply mod scripts into a level, especially the more advanced and complex ones that everybody wants, then what happens to the frame rate? fps sort of dies when a lot of fpi is thrown around, and same with s4mod water, same concept, it's very trying on a system (as has been seaid already)

I love Jenkins forever :p
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Airslide
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Posted: 1st Sep 2008 05:48
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That's not so much my concern as is the fact that the test was supposed to give an idea of how mods changed the performance of FPSC. The fact is you can't compare a newer version to the modifications because the newer version may have sped up or slowed down, so you can't tell what performance impact the mod really has over the stock version.

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Plystire
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2008 19:54
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Um.... you know in Ply's Mod you can remove the framerate cap. That would boost the framerate in the last 3 trials, and probably give more accurate results.


But, another thing to note is that Ply's Mod has very little additions hard-coded into the engine. To really push the FPS with my mod, you gotta script something worth-while, but you're right... I've never had a framerate issue even with a humvee driving around plowing over enemies.

I can't say much for S4Mod, because I haven't actually tried it. What I can say about it is that the Water addition will definitally play with your framerate more than anything else. I suggest turning it off and seeing what you get because along with the Water, it needs to render an additional camera or two which requires more CPU power to accomplish. On top of that, it needs to clip the camera views, requiring more power. On top of THAT, it has AirMod implemented, which (even with timer compabilities) has a lot of hard implementations. Yes, they're editable in the gunspec file but they are always active and thus are constantly being considered by the engine.

V1.09 scores so well because it has none of the additions made by Modders and engine optimizations made by Lee.... and behind that it has very little additional capabilities.

So, if you're simply looking for a good framerate, then go with the official V1.09.


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