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Geek Culture / Copyright Violation

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2003 17:08
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Copyright Violation


Banshee Studios has always been committed to public domain software and what is now known as the indi-scene. For many years Banshee has given our software away covering roughly 50 games across a multitude of platforms.

In recent times we have also given away 3D models for non-commercial products. We did this conditionally, as we expected to be notified of anything released which used our media.

We did not want credits in the final game, we just wanted to see and play the games that featured our work.

Is that too much to ask? Is it unreasonable for us to expect you to let us know when you release a game that features input from ourselves so that we can play it too?

To this effect I will soon revise the web page again to make this clearer, as the wording is now a little vague since the site revamp.

Additionally I would like to make it known that this post was prompted after playing the DB-scene game Victory Road.
Pneumatic Dryll
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~thane/char01.jpg[/img]
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Ian T
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2003 18:57
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If you give out the models for free, I believe you're loosing the rights of intellectual property, and without a strict licence there is no copyright breach whatsoever-- it's perfectly legal.

Not that it isn't dirty and cheap to steal, of course, but there really is no copyright violation here.

Just contact the author of the game and request he either stop using your work or give you credit.

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
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Van B
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2003 19:12
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It's true, you have to express your intentions really clearly, and it is dissapointing when your name is missed from credits. If I'm to understand that the car models in Victory Road were downloaded from your website, I think a little ad for your website and credit should have been given - more moral than legal, but it's the way it should work in this community. It could be that the author simply forgot where they came from, I've downloaded media from websites then forgotten about it - it's easily done.

The cars, and Victory Road look great though - so kudos to Banshee Studios and the VR's creator.


Van-B

My cats breath smells of cat food.
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Rob K
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2003 19:19 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2003 19:20
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Quote: "If you give out the models for free, I believe you're loosing the rights of intellectual property, and without a strict licence there is no copyright breach whatsoever-- it's perfectly legal."


That is completely wrong. It depends on the license which people have to agree to in order to use the models. For example, when you download the free updates to Nvidia Detonator drivers, you have to accept a EULA.

In this case, the license of the models simply states that you may use them as you wish, but you must give credit to Banshee.

The GPL is another example, you can distribute and modify Linux as you wish, but any software which uses ANY code which has previously been released under the GPL, must also be released under the GPL as open source.


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Ian T
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2003 19:31
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'That is completely wrong. It depends on the license which people have to agree to in order to use the models.'

I'm quite aware of that. Read that again-- and without a strict licence. He just vaguely asks for the user to give him credit, there is no EULA. See?

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
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Rob K
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2003 19:47
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I believe the word "strict" as used referred to how nasty the conditions were, rather than whether or not it was an informal agreement.


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Ian T
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2003 19:49
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strict [strikt] (comparative strict·er, superlative strict·est) adjective
1.severe in maintaining discipline: severe in maintaining discipline or rigorous in ensuring that rules are obeyed
2.enforced rigorously: needing to be closely obeyed
3.precise: exact, precise, or narrowly interpreted
4.faithful: closely observing rules, principles, or practices
5.absolute: complete, utter, or absolute
6.BOTANY growing upright: growing upward at or very close to the vertical

[15th century. From Latin strictus, past participle of stringere “to draw tight.”]

—strict·ly, adverb
—strict·ness, noun


Look particularly at 1 and 2. I think that very well conveys what I was saying.

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
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IanM
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2003 21:02
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Yeah, but look at point 4 too
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MikeS
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2003 21:36
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I think this is something, that should be debated between Banshee studios, and the VR team, and in the mean time, banshee studios should rewrite there license, on the "free" models.
Something along the lines.

These 3D models are free to use for any of your games, and/or applications.Under these conditions.
1- Credit is given to Banshee studios for the models.
etc.
etc.
etc.

Yellow:Wanna publish my game microsoft, cuz i no u rich so...Can I have my bag of money now?
Microsoft: *snicker* Tip of the month-Microsoft will never(probebly) publish your game.
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SonicBoom
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2003 21:55
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I'd just like to say that the cars on VR are ALL the same model (with a new lick of paint obviously) and came on the DarkMATTER CD purchased from DBS.

Many of the Sky boxes & vehicle models also came from the same CD with others I made using Terregen/3ds & a great little TS Script I picked up (somewhere??!).

PneumaticDryll, mate - if I'm using anything where I should be/have awarded you credit then I apologise and if you could contact me & let me know what I'm using of yours then I'll do my best to credit you where possible.
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2003 22:00
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There is miss-understanding here.

The cars incidentally are from DarkMATTER, the model in question is a house model featured on the last track.

Actually Banshee Studios does not ask for credit in other peoples games, time and time again i've been offered it for help i've given but actually I try to impress on people I don't want any credit at all. I really don't.

Nothing humble about it - i'm happy to help young programmers where-ever I can - I just wouldn't want to be attributed with their work

All we have ever asked is to be notified when our free media is used and pointed in the direction of a download link, that is all.

We don't want credit, but we do want to see where our work ends up. We want to play the games that it gets used in.

Is that too much to ask?

You can get all technical or legal about it as much as you like, I don't care it's not as if i'm taking anyone to court or demanding the models be removed or license fees paid.

I'm just making an appeal to you guys to act like decent Human beings, when you use our media, please let us know.

As far as my inbox and forums are concerned there has never, ever, been an instance of a Banshee model being used in anyone elses games. However, that is clearly not the case.

In closing, Neither I nor my brother want credit for any part of Victory Road. We would have liked to have been told about it as our web page used to state very clearly - it is now not so clear so I will rectify that, in the meentime if anyone uses any Banshee model in their games - or has done in the past - please let us know and give us a link to download it so we can play the game and see it for ourselves - that's all we ever wanted.

Pneumatic Dryll
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Ian T
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2003 22:04
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Well, that resolves that, but the issue that it's not a copyright violation remains . I agree, people should act like decent human beings and abide by the (small) requirements.

As Van B said, however, it is easy to download models and forget where they came from.

Dryll, I don't know if you do this already, but you may want to put the details in a readme file along with the model, people may have a harder time forgetting then...

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
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IanM
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2003 22:18
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Mouse, copyright is awarded *automatically* to the creator. It doesn't have to be asked for - even if you publically display and offer the item in question.

A condition of usage for the model was that PD should be notified when the model was used in a product.

This was effectively a licencing violation, and therefore it was a copyright violation as the use of the model did not abide by the required terms.

PD is completely within his rights to ask for withdrawal of the model from the game and compensation for this violation.

The only time that copyright does not apply is when it is specifically relinqushed by the holder - for examples of copyright enforcement, you only have to look at the GIF (UNISYS/Compuserve) fiasco.

I'm just stating this because *most* people really don't understand what copyright is, and how it affects them.

Glad to see it's all sorted though
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Ian T
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2003 22:21
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I'm aware that copyright is automatic (to an extent... don't expect to win against a company that actually registered shortly after you just made and distributed something without registering), but my point is that he distriubted it freely without a clear licence agreement. He *asked* that they do this for him but did *not* make it a requirement, it was not a clear condition of usage, see what I mean?

I understand that he could still simply say 'don't use my stuff', but that's a much grayer area than getting them on charge of breaking a licence...

--Mouse

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