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Geek Culture / Who here hasn't played Portal yet?

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bond1
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Posted: 7th Dec 2008 06:00 Edited at: 7th Dec 2008 06:03
Do it then, now! That game has been sitting in my Steam account for a year now, and I finally played it. It's gotta be the most fun I've had playing a FPS game where I don't actually shoot anything, and probably one of my all time favorites now!

And that omnipresent computer, with her psychotic-stalker-girlfriend persona, slowly losing her cool, just had me rolling on the floor.

Some of my favorite quotes, paraphrased: (Warning: spoilers)


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Haven Studios
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Posted: 7th Dec 2008 08:21 Edited at: 7th Dec 2008 08:22


Priceless

Haven Studios

Add me on Xbox Live PPL :3
Little Bill
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Posted: 7th Dec 2008 09:03
I didn't really like it.


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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 7th Dec 2008 12:00
I thought it was awesome, lol.....

My favourite quote:



bergice
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Posted: 7th Dec 2008 12:36
Quote: "My favourite quote:"


I agree, and "The Cake Is A Lie" is fun too


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bond1
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Posted: 7th Dec 2008 13:10
Yeah that was a good one coffeegrunt, when she starts backpedaling and getting more and more desparate. And that song at the end - I've been humming that for days!

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 7th Dec 2008 13:14
Nope, haven't played it yet, got the demo and love it, now I just need to go out and actually buy it. Fingers crossed Satan Claws will pick me up a copy.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
KeithC
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Posted: 7th Dec 2008 15:40
Haven't tried it at all yet.....

Grandma
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Posted: 7th Dec 2008 15:45
Me neither. I promised someone I would, but I didn't promise it would be anytime soon.

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Alucard94
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Posted: 7th Dec 2008 17:08
Play it now! Great game.


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bond1
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Posted: 8th Dec 2008 02:00
Yeah, I had heard the great reviews, but somehow I let it sit for a year before trying it. I guess it's just some ingrained prejudices on my part against "puzzle" games.

It blew away my expectations though, it was a LITTLE bit slow starting, until I got the double Portal gun, then it as a blast all the way to the end.

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Crazy Ninja
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Posted: 8th Dec 2008 03:45
I still think it's funny you went a whole year without playing it, haha. Was a completely awesome game, the credits song was the best. I am eagerly awaiting Portal 2 along with HL2: ep 3, episode 2 was such a cliffhanger(but still an awesome game)!

Now that you have finished portal, you can have fun playing through prelude now:
http://www.portalprelude.com/
A very well done mod that gives a little background to Portal. Be warned though, it's a very different experience compared to Portal.

On other Source related news, any else see the new trailer for the Black Mesa Source mod? I am so stoked for it as I haven't played HL1 at all and would really love to get the background on HL2.
They're website: http://www.blackmesasource.com/
Plystire
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Posted: 8th Dec 2008 06:39
I loved the game and played through the entire thing in a single sitting on the night it came out.

Even though it was quite possibly the greatest game I had ever played, I was very disappointed in the fact that it was so short and the difficulty of the puzzles was about that of a second grade spelling bee.


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bond1
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Posted: 8th Dec 2008 07:13
For me, the difficulty and lenght were just about perfect, I don't like long, drawn out games anymore, 6-12 hours is perfect. Some of the later levels had me thinking a fair while, but never to the point of frustration, or where I wanted to walk away.

I'm convinced that Valve is head and shoulders above anyone else out there when it comes to making quality games. The pacing and gameplay of this and the HL2 series are perfection, to me.

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Jeku
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Posted: 8th Dec 2008 09:43
Quote: "The pacing and gameplay of this and the HL2 series are perfection, to me."


Agreed


Van B
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Posted: 8th Dec 2008 12:48
I never thought I'd like Portal, but it completely blew me away when I got into it. The frustrating parts might force you to consider just forgetting it, but there's something about it that keeps you playing. I guess HL and HL2 were kinda like that as well, you always find sections that are tricky and need a few attempts to get through in one piece. There's always the knowledge that something cool is just around the corner, I guess that plays a big part in all the best story based FPS games.

The only disappointing thing I found with Orange Box though is the destinct lack of Counter Strike:Source - I thought that would make for a great XBL game, better than Team Fortress 2.


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Raven
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Posted: 8th Dec 2008 13:07
Quote: "Now that you have finished portal, you can have fun playing through prelude now:
http://www.portalprelude.com/
A very well done mod that gives a little background to Portal. Be warned though, it's a very different experience compared to Portal."


Actually despite being a huge fan of Portal (have it on both Steam and XBLA), I truely hated Prelude.

When I visited their forums, there was a thread about how this wasn't anything like Portal; and they weren't pretending it was. Yet they put in a story to try to explain the background information... in-fact most of the story revolved around you being a test subject prior to GLaDOS being turned on, it would've been great if the levels hadn't been designed by those weirdos who obviously had completed every damn challenge map with a Gold Time, Step and Portal rating claiming it was too damn easy.

In the end the damn thing became just too insanely difficult for me, don't get me wrong I do like my games to offer challenge; but their game is full of cheap deaths, and things that require precise timing with a mouse and keyboard.

Maybe I'm just strange but I actually prefer to use the Xbox 360 Controller even on Windows for gaming now (except for games like C&C Red Alert 2) whenever I can. Portal was awesome with the controller, and I was hoping that this fan mod was going to be well honestly more of the same. Seriously disappointed me that this wasn't the case, more so that the creators were like "well if you don't like it tough, we made a guide for those wanting to get through the game"

Sorry but if a game end up REQUIRING the majority of your audience to use it, with even more (like myself) who couldn't even bloody complete it with the video guide help... there is something seriously wrong.

In all it was a shame because the levels were creatively done, it's just they were as sadistic as old arcade titles.

Quote: "On other Source related news, any else see the new trailer for the Black Mesa Source mod? I am so stoked for it as I haven't played HL1 at all and would really love to get the background on HL2.
They're website: http://www.blackmesasource.com/ "


I'm really amped about this too, it's been in development for so long that I was begining to think it had fallen in to obscurity and everyone had abandoned it like most mods like this. Was awesome to see it's alive and they want to release it soon.

^_________^ can't wait, Half-Life Source was just well the original game (not even with the HD Models) but all the water and lighting was using the Source engine... cool and all but just felt so throw together it wasn't even worth it imo

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Van B
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Posted: 8th Dec 2008 13:32
Quote: "Maybe I'm just strange but I actually prefer to use the Xbox 360 Controller even on Windows for gaming now"


I'm the same, it's that analogue strafe - PC gamers seem to disregard it, but being able to aim and fine tune with the strafe seems a lot less fiddly to me. Maybe that's because I just had to order a new mouse to replace my stupidly expensive laser gaming mouse, which has a broken left button after just 6 months of moderate use. Ever tried using an art package when your left mouse button keeps breaking connection? - it's enough to make you ill!.
The only thing I've had go wrong with a 360 controller is the odd broken cable - probably due to my own reckless disregard .
What do you reckon?, can the 360 controller be the best controller available? - quite a feat if you remember those hand-cramper XBox controllers.


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bond1
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Posted: 8th Dec 2008 15:14
The 360 controller is without a doubt the best-controller-ever-made. And it's awesome that I can use the wireless version on a PC.

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bergice
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Posted: 8th Dec 2008 15:59
Still Alive - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ljFaKRTrI&feature=related

This is the credits song, its so awesome!


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bond1
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Posted: 8th Dec 2008 16:19 Edited at: 8th Dec 2008 16:21
Such a great song - and a strangely alluring voice for a computer. Yeah I said it.

And don't forget about those hilarious little machine gun turrets, I love those cute little things. "I don't blame you". "No hard feelings." LOL!

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 8th Dec 2008 17:54
Quote: "The 360 controller is without a doubt the best-controller-ever-made. And it's awesome that I can use the wireless version on a PC."


Agreed, although I recently bought a PS3 and I love how light the Sixaxis controller is. If you go from playing on the PS3 to the 360, you will appreciate the difference.

That said, the 360 controller is a lot more comfortable for first person shooters.
The analogue sticks have that little indentation on the top, which makes it a lot easier to grip.

Raven
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Posted: 8th Dec 2008 18:03
Quote: "Agreed, although I recently bought a PS3 and I love how light the Sixaxis controller is. If you go from playing on the PS3 to the 360, you will appreciate the difference.

That said, the 360 controller is a lot more comfortable for first person shooters.
The analogue sticks have that little indentation on the top, which makes it a lot easier to grip."


Still think that the Japanese never thought of people with big hands designing the Playstation controller, it's been over a decade and they haven't fixed the issue of it just being too dang small.

Strange when you think that the GameCube was designed for younger gamers in mind and has a larger controller (mind the buttons are bigger too lol).

The Xbox 360 Controller definately is something I found was something that finally turned me onto console gaming over PC gaming. If they had kept the original Xbox controller, not sure how long I would've wanted to use it... the 360 one is just so damn ergonomic, with indented non-slip analog sticks; every button is easily within reach without cramping your hand from prolonged useage.

The only thing about the 360 pad that I don't like actually is the D-Pad. Kinda wish they had licensed the SNES one from Nintendo, then the damn thing would be near to perfection.

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Crazy Ninja
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Posted: 9th Dec 2008 01:12
@Raven - About Prelude, I pretty much agree with you on everything there, I remember repeatedly slamming my keyboard in frustration(i'm surprised it still works). The worst part about the game though is that the ending is actually really good, but the rest of the game just puts people off so they never get to it.

Also, how much better is the 360 controller for the PC compared to say, a pretty decent logitech controller? I'm hoping to get a controller for Christmas and am wondering if the 360 is worth it.
bond1
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Posted: 9th Dec 2008 02:42
I would say definitely go with the wireless XBox 360 controller and wireless gaming reciever. It's the PC controller I've been waiting for my entire life.

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Raven
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Posted: 9th Dec 2008 03:47
I'd say that the support as a dedicated PC controller isn't quite there yet. Not support from Microsoft, because the XInput API is truely amazing and so damn easy to program for.

I'm more meaning support is just lacking for controllers in general for the PC, always has. Developers still seem to be under the general impression we all prefer Keyboard & Mouse controls.

There have been quite a few titles as of late that do support it though, and absolutely beautifully might I add.
Portal, Half-Life 2 Episode 2, Gears of War, Tomb Raider Legend/Anniversary/Underworld, Unreal Tournament 3 are the few that I actually own that spring to mind.

Although I believe there are a good few more. Plus for those old games with Gamepad support, it has the exact same axis setup as the Logitech/Gravis which are the main two the PC industry have utilised heavily in the past.

Support is growing, slowly... but imo it's about damn time there was a standard for controllers on the PC. We just have to convince more developers really that this is a control system worth supporting.

Especially given most games now coming to the PC are multi-platform releases with the Xbox 360 often being one of those platforms; kinda never made sense to me why PC versions strip the support of Xbox 360 controllers when the API is identical between the platforms.

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Rampage
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Posted: 9th Dec 2008 08:00
Never played, never really heard of it...Only that it is pretty good.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Dec 2008 12:13 Edited at: 9th Dec 2008 12:19
I agree with what Raven said, if you're a PC gamer using a controller it's easier to sit back and relax, but it seems since the XBox 360 controller for Windows has been out, more games have supported it, so it might be a worthy investment, considering my normal controller is broken, though I do prefer the dual shock layout, which I had on my old controller.

I've also just looked at the price of the XBox 360 Windows controller, a bit expensive, don't you guys think?

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Jeku
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Posted: 9th Dec 2008 16:16 Edited at: 9th Dec 2008 16:16
Quote: "I've also just looked at the price of the XBox 360 Windows controller, a bit expensive, don't you guys think?"


Well worth it! I prefer the wired controller because I hate dealing with batteries, and that will save you about another $10.

Also, if your 360 needs to get serviced for any matter of issues (i.e. 3 red lights), you can always get them to send you a free controller as a form of apology. I've done that twice already


Van B
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Posted: 9th Dec 2008 16:24
I've had problems with wireless controllers and those USB charger cables, they don't seem to register as controllers like that. I use a fully wired 360 controller, which IMO is the best option. For one thing you don't have to worry about batteries, but buying one for the PC means you also have a handy spare controller for when your batteries do run out and can't quickly be replaced.

Ohh, and if your looking for a game to try out your controller on the PC, Walabers Gymnast game is great - no controller is better suited to that than the 360 one.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Dec 2008 21:01
Quote: "Also, if your 360 needs to get serviced for any matter of issues (i.e. 3 red lights), you can always get them to send you a free controller as a form of apology. I've done that twice already"


Shame I don't have a 360, otherwise I'd be saving myself some cash. Alas, I will get one when I get the money - probably after Christmas.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Guyra
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Posted: 10th Dec 2008 06:06
I haven't gotten to playing this game, yet. I really, really want to, though.

I actually had it installed here the other day, but something messed up, and the game wouldn't start.
Plystire
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Posted: 10th Dec 2008 09:28 Edited at: 10th Dec 2008 09:31
Quote: "The frustrating parts might force you to consider just forgetting it, but there's something about it that keeps you playing"


It's because everyone wants to beat it so they can say "WHAT NOW, .....?!? Where're your snappy responses NOW, HUH?!?" to GLaDOS.


Quote: "those weirdos who obviously had completed every damn challenge map with a Gold Time, Step and Portal rating claiming it was too damn easy."


Noooooo!!!! I'm a wierdo!

Quote: "In all it was a shame because the levels were creatively done, it's just they were as sadistic as old arcade titles"


FINALLY!!! I was getting aggravated at how insanely easy developers are making their games nowadays. It's like... if you die enough, they throw you a bone and PUT YOU at the end of the level. I ABSO-*-LUTELY hate that!!! It's like the "Auto-Difficulty-Adjustment Mechanism" Valve put in for Left 4 Dead!!! I mean, for chripes sake, I put it on Expert for a flipping reason, and it keeps throwing it back down to Advanced every now and then!!! It's a slap in the face saying "Hah!! You suck too much to be on Expert, so we're going to FORCE you onto an easier setting!" That's just degrading and uncalled for! Almost right up there with the old SmashBros "FAILURE!!!" when you lose a challenge. (Though, I always enjoyed that, because it was an incentive to go back and beat it )

*sigh*

And another thing! Did anyone find it odd that when Nintendo started letting people download old games on their Wii, suddenly the traffic on the GameFAQs boards for those games would pick up and it'd just be full of people saying "This game is too hard!" (Kid Icarus comes to mind, with people complaining about no checkpoints and "needing 'insanely accurate' jumping skills" and dying for falling off the level)

I, honestly, think gamers nowadays are baby'd. It's as if for a title to be successful, it's required to milk them along until they beat the game. If it can't, then it's required to have difficulty settings like "Newb", "Not-So-Newb", and "Maybe a Challenge" (Which would be "Easy, Normal, and Hard")

[/rant]




The one and only,


Grandma
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Posted: 10th Dec 2008 10:00
What Plystire said.

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ionstream
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Posted: 10th Dec 2008 10:09
Quote: "Kid Icarus comes to mind, with people complaining about no checkpoints and "needing 'insanely accurate' jumping skills" and dying for falling off the level"


I prefer fun games to tedious trial-and-error games.

Grandma
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Posted: 10th Dec 2008 11:15 Edited at: 10th Dec 2008 11:18
Quote: "I prefer fun games to tedious trial-and-error games."

And that's where you have to define "fun". My version is accomplishing something that is difficult, as it leaves some satisfaction.

I made a mod for Halo 1 for the xbox a few years back. I increased the difficuly to such a degree that beating any single level could take 6+ hours. Now that was fun.

Ammo didn't grow on trees anymore. Enemies had their shield halved, but then again, you didn't even have yours. And lots more evil stuff like no radar.

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bond1
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Posted: 10th Dec 2008 14:58
And I thought Kid Icarus was one of the tamer games of that era, I can make those jumps with my eyes closed, even today. Try the NES version of Ghosts & Goblins, now that's a brutal game!

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Grandma
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Posted: 10th Dec 2008 15:58
Quote: "And I thought Kid Icarus was one of the tamer games of that era, I can make those jumps with my eyes closed, even today. Try the NES version of Ghosts & Goblins, now that's a brutal game!"

ohhh, I have that.

Never beat it for some strange reason, but I did get farther than what I managed to do with the first battletoads game. That game should be illegal.

Battletoads for the NES has a reputation as being virtually impossible to finish, even among hardcore gamers.

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Van B
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Posted: 10th Dec 2008 16:24
It's funny just how much easier games have gotten.

I mean sit any hardcore gamer in front of Manic Miner and they'll fail - games we played for fun as kids are enough to make a grown man cry by todays standards.

It seems like these days people are scared off by games that are too difficult, then they complain when games are dumbed down or too easy. Marketing is the cancer that killed off challenging games I think.


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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Dec 2008 17:06
There's a difference between "challenge" and "bad gameplay". A lot of those games were just bad, but we look at them with rose-coloured glasses because we were kids back then and it was exciting. Back then limited memory constraints often forced the games to be more difficult (i.e. no saves, constantly respawning enemies, etc.)


Van B
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Posted: 10th Dec 2008 17:36
Now I know you didn't just dis Miner Willy!

I know what you mean, 99% of games from the 80's are best left in our memory - but there are some shining examples of great 8-bit gameplay. The beauty of Manic Miner was it's difficulty, the first screen for example was really tricky but getting to a new screen was always a real buzz, the sort of buzz that's rare these days. I still play it now and then, although that may just mean that I'm a masochist.


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Raven
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Posted: 10th Dec 2008 18:19
Quote: "I've had problems with wireless controllers and those USB charger cables, they don't seem to register as controllers like that. I use a fully wired 360 controller, which IMO is the best option. For one thing you don't have to worry about batteries, but buying one for the PC means you also have a handy spare controller for when your batteries do run out and can't quickly be replaced."


I have a Wired and Wireless Xbox 360 controller connected to my PC, and honestly barely used my Wireless one for actually playing games; not due to any issues like battery life (have battery packs for all my wireless controllers and a recharge station) given they can last a minimum of 24hours of continous gaming (on AA batteries like Energizer or Duracell M3 you're looking at closer to 60 hours) which honestly is more than enough given well like most of you I'm sure, I work a 40hour week. Gaming for me is basically Monday / Thursday (days I'm off) or 11pm - Whenever I fall asleep or want to do something else.

So realistically that's more than enough for what I'd say is the adverage gamer like myself; as the controllers can last nearly a week of normal gameplaying on a single charge. It's also not as if they require ridiculous charging time either, given the Plug'n'Play Charger does it within 3hours where-as the Charge Station does it in less.

That all said there are serious advantages to using the Wired controller. Firstly, it's a USB device designed to be standardly recognised as a 5 Axis, 10 Button with POV Hat controller. So you can install it on any OS as a default USB controller.

Second and most importantly is it responds quicker. I'm not sure why this is, but there is actually a very practical test you can do to prove the advantage the Wired gives you performance over the Wireless. If any of you have Forza Motorsport 2, make a split-screen game on Nurbering (sp?) and take identical cars on it.

Now drag race them to the first corner. You'll notice whoever is using the wired controller will not only be able to shift quicker but accelerate quicker as well. Won't be noticeable at first, but they very quickly pull ahead quite noticably before that first chicane.

When you're playing stuff like Portal, you also notice that the controls just feel more responsive on the whole. Now this to me makes it a great advantage when playing anything.

Quote: "There's a difference between "challenge" and "bad gameplay". A lot of those games were just bad, but we look at them with rose-coloured glasses because we were kids back then and it was exciting. Back then limited memory constraints often forced the games to be more difficult (i.e. no saves, constantly respawning enemies, etc.)"


Couldn't agree more. A game being challenging is quite different to poor gameplay/design. Arcade games of old were designed often on purpose to be ridiculously difficult because when you die, you pump in more coins to make it to the end.

When it came to the home consoles while the reasoning is different, the end result is the same. The game you're playing is extremely short in all, but you've just spent $60 on it... you'd feel really cheated if you spent $60 and the game was done in say an hour.

As such as a form of artificially extended the amount of gameplay, developers just make it sadistically difficult. Some gamers seem to believe in order for a game to be a game it has to basically kill you constantly until you get your timing down to an artform in order to complete it.

This is back in a day when you completed a game you were really heralded amongst your friends as "the man". Thing is your adverage gamer gets the same game, gets so far before getting stuck and just gives up; never to complete it cause it's "too hard". Then proclaims the game bad because of it, and to a degree they're right it is bad because it's basically punishing the play for their shortfall of being too damn short.

You look back though and think about it, you'll see I'm right.
The games that offered far less content; in-terms of levels, variety, gameplay, etc... were brutally difficult, while those that offered abundances of such things were fairly easy.

Another way to look at it is this way, games now are getting more and more complex storylines and slowly turning into an artform of their own. I really, really like the story in Dead Space; as it was quite well written and in-depth, a bit like the one in Aliens. Made it extremely enjoyable, now the game alright isn't exactly epically long; but gives the gamer a good 10hours of gameplay which imo is pretty much just right. As it's long enough to get attached but not so long that you feel it was just padded out.

Now if that game had the difficulty that Resident Evil 1 had, I would've done what I did with RE1; got about quarter of the way through... died constantly and given up. Resident Evil 1 is brutally difficult because it is easily possible to complete it within a matter of 3 hours even without knowing what to do or where to go. With the ramped but difficulty though, the game generally takes people a good 10 hours to complete.

That's a huge padding made simply by cheap-deaths and over-powered enemies.

If it hadn't been for my friend who helping my by telling me, which enemies to just ignore and which ones needed to be killed... I doubt I ever would've completed it.

Alright so with Resident Evil I'm not exactly going to get an epic storyline that has be on the edge of my seat wondering what'll happen next like Dead Space; but that's kinda my point.

Dead Space is as difficult as it needs to be so that you'll die a few times, but constant checkpoints and save points mean you never really feel that it's just too much damn work to get back to where you were... and as such while not taking away from the challenge of completing it, you have that insentive to keep going and are rewarded with more story that unravels quite nicely from the tapestry it is.

A difficult game is cool, sometimes brutally difficult games are just so you can be like "HA! I can do it while others can't" but realistically I prefer how Bionic Commando Rearmed and Mirror's Edge go about providing that for gamers...

The single player (and in the case of BCR, co-operative) storymode is fun while offering a bit of a challenge, while the challenge levels just range from a good laugh to "You've got to be ****ing me! No ****ing way that's possible you developer *******!"

That to me is a damn good way of going about catering for everyone, after all what's the point in a story if only a handful of people will ever see it all?

But that said those who play games purely for the accomplishments (and nowadays achievements) probably don't care a game even has a story... after all it's about the challenge, rather than the experience, right? That imo is a bit of a sad view, because you don't watch movies or television programs simply for the challenge of understanding the storyline or making it through it without falling asleep... you watch then to be entertained by a good story.

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bond1
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Posted: 10th Dec 2008 18:25 Edited at: 10th Dec 2008 18:26
That's true, and there's a fine line between challenging and "not fair".

I think the Contra series is a good example of a challenging game, that was still fun. Sure there was a lot memorization involved as far as where enemies would appear, but there was enough entertainment value to keep you trying - to see that killer boss at the end if you just kept at it.

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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Dec 2008 21:13 Edited at: 10th Dec 2008 21:15
Retro games are still my favourite, but I'm of the thought that the player should never "die" in a game. What's the point? To move the player back to the level, artificially extending the gameplay hours? There's nothing more frustrating than dying at a boss and being sent back to the very beginning of the level. IMHO there should be a redefined form of punishment that doesn't anger. What's worse are games like Super Mario Galaxy that still have lives. Why!? What is the point of having the player run out of lives where he is forced to start the entire game over? Is that considered fun in some circles?

Games should be challenging, not exercises in frustration. Most purists might disagree with me, but some of the best and most beautiful games out there were challenging but not tough-as-nails.


Grandma
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Posted: 10th Dec 2008 21:23
I like the system of lives very much. It makes you more careful and if you should die, well take it like a man you little weasel!

Dieing would suddenly not be all that bad if you didn't get sent back to a save-spot or something. I don't know of any better way to do it. Sure you could punish the player by doing different things than that, but none as "effective". What would you do otherwise to punish? There's really not many alternatives. In RPG games there are a number of things you could do. But for platformers, FPS and similar "simpler" games, I think that's the best solution.

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Plystire
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Posted: 11th Dec 2008 04:44
Battletoads had an okay difficulty for me. I mean, it satisfied my need for a challenge and still supplied meaningful areas and obstacles. That, and the levels were just so well made! I still the game on my shelf, but without a working NES, it's just a keepsake.

Ghosts 'n Goblins was one of my all time favorites! It was one of the few games that I was not able to fully complete until I was a teenager. But, that's mainly because they stick you with the whole "you gotta finish the game TWICE to REALLY beat it". I laughed when I saw that.



But I see the arguments here about difficulty and I'm wondering about some of the comments.

Quote: "The games that offered far less content; in-terms of levels, variety, gameplay, etc... were brutally difficult"


Not entirely true. There were many games with an arcade style, yet had a beautiful representation and tons to offer! The R-Type and Gradius series come to mind. I mean, they're legendary for a reason! The game isn't always going to be the same for everyone. Player's can actually choose to start out differently, which was a great concept that caught on. Everyone loved it and yet when it came out everyone thought it was "brutally difficult".

Sure there were some games that had craptastic gameplay and lacked an artistic touch and just constantly threw you into one bad situation after the next expecting you to keep paying up when you died, but no body remembers those because it was clear that very little thought went into them.

There are other games that had plenty of thought put into them and were still very hard. Battletoads, Snake Rattle N Roll (My childhood favorite), Ghosts N Goblins, and all the other ones already mentioned.


Quote: "you'd feel really cheated if you spent $60 and the game was done in say an hour."


That's strange because I didn't feel too cheated by Portal... though, I guess that's because it came with other games to play, too.


Quote: "Games should be challenging, not exercises in frustration. Most purists might disagree with me, but some of the best and most beautiful games out there were challenging but not tough-as-nails"


I have to agree, yet all of the games I thought were challenging, other people threw their controllers at the wall and said the game sucked.



Oh and while we're on the subject of "punishment for dying"... did anyone play Rygar on the NES? I LOVE THAT GAME!!!! While dying isn't terribly punished, there is no save system or password system. Instead, you're punished for turning off the game. You cannot resume from where you were, and believe me... that game is LONG and VERY open-ended for an NES game.


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Little Bill
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Posted: 11th Dec 2008 12:21
I enjoy playing frogger. Very addictive.

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Grandma
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Posted: 11th Dec 2008 13:28
So this is a confessions thread now.

I enjoyed matrix revolutions.

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Raven
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Posted: 11th Dec 2008 15:14
Quote: "That's strange because I didn't feel too cheated by Portal... though, I guess that's because it came with other games to play, too"


True, I bought that in a package with Episode 1, Episode 2 and Team Fortress 2. I've since purchased it on Xbox Live Arcade where it's 1200MSP ($15) and despite it only having an 1hour and a bit long story is still extremely engrossing.

I think that's a major difference between a game that is just brutally difficult and one that offers challenging gameplay... In-fact Portal and Portal: Prelude are almost exactly the same length.

While I'd be lying if I didn't say I died, quite often trying to complete Portal the first time; it never felt like frustrating deaths. Puzzles weren't so long that I felt quite cheated each time I died, and more importantly is that whenever I did die it wasn't because I had to make some stupid pixel perfect jump.

This is what irritates me about quite a number of games of old, now I brought up Megaman before because I know many look back at it with fond memories... but compare Megaman next to Turrican, and you actually start to see my point quite well.

Sure games like R-Type, Galaga or Xenon the whole dieing thing doesn't seem as frustrating but realistically if you die, you instantly start exactly where you died.. you don't mind simply because the game doesn't really change throughout. It's a simple test of seeing how much score you can make rather than some cohesive storyline.

That doesn't really translate well when you have something where you're made to feel like there is some sorta storyline though, or that the deaths were cheap.

For example in R-Type, you die... ALOT but it makes sense cause well when you have a ring of fireballs rotating towards you covering the screen you know full well the game is saying "yeah you die now"

But in Megaman or Mario Bros, when your running along and a jump you've done 20x before in a level suddenly results in you not quite making a platform and falling down a gap because you needed to get it pixel perfect... there is nothing more frustrating. This is what it generally speaking comes down to, controls more than level design (although often level design and confusion can be to blame as well)

I might hear you say "but in say Final Fantasy you'll be fighting a boss and they unleash some stupidly powerful attack and you die instantly... isn't that frustrating" and here is the main difference between something like that an R-Type is; cheap deaths.

I'm not talking about those deaths that are annoying because you're just dying but because the game is doing it out of the blue. In R-Type you see them coming, you might be able to avoid it for a few second but you know full well it's gonna happen, where as in Final Fantasy you can feel like your making progress just for that boss to blam! kill you instantly... you don't see it coming, you might know they'll do it but you don't see it coming until it happens so there is nothing you can do about it.

That whole feeling of "WTF! This game is sodding cheating to stop me going further", as opposed to "Oh crap, I'm boned"

ya get what I mean?

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Plystire
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Posted: 11th Dec 2008 23:22
Hmmmm, I'm not sure if you're saying that you want dying to be forgiven or punished here. I enjoy games of both types, really. R-Type will let you try as many times as you want in a level, but if you lose ALL of your lives, you have to go back to the beginning of that level. I liked that, since death (thought not punished severely) had a draw back and kept the player wanting to stay alive. That and by dying the player lost most of their collected powerups.

I can't see the justice behind comparing deaths in R-Type to deaths in Final Fantasy, though. They are different genres and have different gameplay mechanics. Whilst R-Type utilizes an intense real-time combat system, Final Fantasy has always invoked more of a tactical approach to battles. If the boss whips out an Ultra-Mega-Super-Death Punch that hits everyone and they die, you learn from it for the next try. Also, you gotta remember more often than not FF games will let you save RIGHT before a big battle like that. Let's say the Boss had an attack that turned everyone into zombies. You see it once, say "Oh, crap! That was cheap!" But then you think about it for a moment and say, "Hey, I can equip a couple of my party members with an accessory that protects against being turned into a zombie, and I could also stock up on items that reverse it for my other characters!" You go back with a plan in hand, and you do better. I always hated the bosses who confused your characters, personally, because then it meant you had to either wait it out or attack your own characters... but then I found a way around that, too. It's completely different to R-Type.


As for jumping, you have a point. Jumps in the NES MegaMan games can and are very frustrating. Regardless, I beat them. I also found that post-MegaMan 5, the jumps were much more lenient. What always got to me were the disappearing pattern platforms over pits in those games, but it only extends the gameplay because eventually you get the timing of the jumps and the pattern down and it's easy after that.


Quote: "It's a simple test of seeing how much score you can make rather than some cohesive storyline."


Sometimes the developers throw in a story to entertain the gamer as well as include a score. R-Type and Gradius did this quite well in their later releases.




Sadly, I'm just trying to say that I didn't get any sort of challenge from Portal. It was supposed to be a Puzzle type game and I didn't see any puzzles. It was all perfectly obvious what you were supposed to do. Albeit, I did die a few times on my first play-through, I admit it, but 2/3 of them were from stupid mistakes and not a lack of pixel-perfect precision.

My friend told me they were working on a new Portal, with much much more levels and harder puzzles. I really hope that's true, since I'd hate to see such a great idea and presentation go to waste.


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