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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / DBPro MMO Hosting Soulutions

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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 30th Jul 2003 20:22
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Ok, lets start by remembering this is a question, like all of my ambitious posts, even though they seem like not well though out proposals...ok lets begin...

Ahem...*steps up to the mic*...

I, With my current broadband upgrade on the verge of happening, and the fact that i just have the kind nature, would like to host a server for MMO DBPro games...

I just aquired a server from my work and would be most glad to host a server side program and allocate some space for any server side media...

I will also be able to host my own MMORPG and VPSOrange so its not really like i am straying from what i normally do...

I am not guarantying(spelling) anything, i am asking for possible problems this may present...

And as for the server...i still need to pick it up...so i know nothing about it yet...i dont think i can host websites...but i will be able to host server side programs for MMOG and well...i may be able to provide my SF technology so that i can extend the 256 player limit...

Interested...I wont be using a static IP, i will be using a Dynamic DNS updater...so can that still work...

C'mon you know u want it so help me figure out what i am missing here...

Oh and i will provide a control panel so that you can login and check files...and i have an old ditto max drive so i will be doin backups...and i may dish out the cash to get a new(shiny) server...

Problems?
Questions?

Anything...?
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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 30th Jul 2003 21:01
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Well...now i have a question...can i direct DBPro to look for the server through a DNS server using URL...cause i dont know how
www.no-ip.com works with this...maybe i can find a better free DNS server...

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Fallout
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Posted: 30th Jul 2003 23:57
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Eddie. This broadband ... are you getting yourself a T1 connection or something? How else do you intend to be able to handle over 256 clients? For your average (highly optimised) FPS, you're looking at 16 players tops on an average ADSL connection.

Lets say you're hosting 256 players.
Each incoming packet is maybe 64bytes (a very conservative estimate)
Lets say you're receiving packets 4 times per second.

Thats a receive/download server speed of 64kbyte/s, or a 512kbps connection. Not hard to get hold of one of them, is it?

But .. you need to be sending packets as well.

Lets say each packet you are sending is a highly conservative estimate of 512bytes (including all local and TCP/IP headers, frame check etc - all the automatic stuff) (this is containing data for only a small selection of the 256 players).
You're probably receiving and sending packets 4 times per second.

That means you need a send/upload speed of 4Mbps. Remember, this is all very conservative stuff. Basically, you need an upload speed of 4Mbps at the very least to run a db game with 256 players, who are vastly seperate and not communicating with each other a lot.

If you're getting a broadband package with a 4Mbps upload speed, then you might be able to get something fairly decent going, but offering the services to host game(s) with more than 256 players, you must be packing a serious connection.

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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 00:10
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ah...i considered this...and i was waiting for confirmation...im looking over some numbers here gimme a day or so to figure what speed exactly i will probly be communicating...

What else...

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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 15:59
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ahhh...see, i looked it up and, well, four times a second wont produce that much data...it really doesnt...and well...i already have a broadband connection that can support what it is i run...with speed left over...so...FREE MMO HOSTING FOR DBPRO APPZ...that is, as long as they are GUI friendly on the server side...

C'mon jump on it...get into it...dont u want to see Fallout eat his own arse ...you know you can do it...MAKE SERVER SIDE PROGRAMS NOW...

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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 16:03
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...i forgot to say...its free..cause i cant charge for it...but i need it anyway...so...FREE DAMNIT...

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Fallout
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 16:20
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lol Eddie. Trying not to sound like Mr Ego here, but you looked it up? I do advanced networking as part of my degree.

Most multiplayer games suggest an ADSL (or some other form of broadband) host doesn't exceed 16 players. The figured don't lie. If you want to host 256 players ... well, that's 16 times more clients than a 16 player game, so you're going to need a connection at least 16 times faster than your average broadband package (once again not taking into account increased size in upload packets). What's the average broadband package these days? 256kbps? 512kbps? Times that one by 16. Doesn't look good.

It's a nice offer mate, but there's a reason why there are dedicated game servers online - you need a ninja connection to handle it all.

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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 16:36 Edited at: 31st Jul 2003 16:58
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um...well...i am a Hardware technician and well...i am at work...and well i stage networks that go out to county government using our resolution software so that people can use public retrieve stations on the network to get information on legal documentation...and well...um i guess since its part of your degree you must not have learned it all yet cause...well i have so many resources here...and well they say its possible...and well...as i sit and work on the Nash county account(1 WEVSERVER, 5 Public Retrieves, 2 Fee stations, 2 Indexing, and 1 Scan station)...i look around at all the computers on the Network...and i think to myself...wow...where is theyre Database server...they must have one on site...and then i think...i really do understand networking...and my Boss is Computer God so...well...hes old...and all the programmers here are old...so they must know what they are talking about since they have used so much Network and Internet based software...they must know what packet sizes...

Oh, and not to sound like MR. Ego but at Age 16 working as a Hardware Technician, i wouldnt know so much myself if i hadnt asked my co-workers...you know, programmers, HT, ST(its a star wars movie, ok maybe not)...and well thats cool...im still gonna try...we will see if u eat ur own arse...lol...im still gonna try man...write a server side and client app for me to use...maybe we can invent a good way of transmitting data...Cmon dont give up hope...u know u wanna eat ur own arse...i could do it but nash is rather large and i gtg at the moment to work on it...

So C'mon help me out...im gonna try anyway...man, we could make an MMOG server...wouldn't that be fun...and if it ultimatly fails, well, i dont know...i guess i didnt lose any money...and neither did you...so...well...im gonna do it

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Fallout
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 22:44
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lol - Let's not argue about who knows what, does what, knows who etc.

I would offer my advice/help, but my advice is that you can't do it. I'm not having a go, or trying to put your idea down, or laughing at you - I'm simply saying I don't believe its possible with the hardware you're probably getting, and neither do all the big commercial computer game developers. They suggest a 16 player limit on a broadband connection for most types of games, so who are we to argue?

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Megaman Zero
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 23:05
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It depends on how much information has to be sent to how many people. ADSL on CS can only host a 6 player game, not a 16, so on a game with the graphics of half life, the best bet for you to use is probably a T3 connection, T1 will work, but you wont have enough players for an MMO with T1 anyway. T1 is only good for games about as good as Q2 at this current time, with 250 players.

BTW, depending on where you live, T1 or a T3 costs anywhere from $1000-$4000, so it is a might expensive to be giving it out for free what you are wanting to do seems a bit unrealistic at this time, unless you have some connections at the government to get a T3 line or something.

Most people who run servers rent them out for $80 per month for a 16-20 player server, so imagine if you wanted to host one for a 250 player server, it would be nearly impossible for you to keep it running, switching out parts for maintinence, & servers are a might costly too, if you want to do it professionaly, you will need a 3.2 overclocked processor, 8 gig minimum of ram (which costs like $4000 per stick,) T1, T2, or a T3 connection, & similar components, which most severs that are done right so that people will use them, cost around $9,000-$15,000 bo build, so I dont see you doing this anytime in your near future, at least not for free.

P.S. I have a secondary job as a computer tech to fund my weapons project & mercenary group, & I know what im talking about on this one.

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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 23:08
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We are the DBPro Programmers...we argue...look at Simple...well...i havnt seen him for a while, but, Simple and Raven argued alot...but, well, hmm, i think you are not getting my idea i meant a Network MMOG...kinda different, but, its about the same...i really just think an Network MMOG would work...it would, and what about in Peer to Peer multiplayer the server could ignore what it didnt care about...and well...lets see...if the Server isnt hosting the actual game just knowing where its found on the IP adresses thats still a Network MMOG, and if you want a MMORPG that makes sure you dont cheat make the server check the stats and stuff of the characters...i know if you cut back on what the server does it will work...i forgot Network part...MMOG are normally all clients to server not like a game locator...which would work...in a way...

Im gonna try it and your gonna help me...i will get an HP Prolient 370 and i will write a Client to Server App we will transmit like what ever packets you want it to transmit, around normal parameters of a game, then we will ping it to see what speed it runs...then add more players to see how many people before its way to slow...i can get it working...i will make sumthin to speed up the process...

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Fallout
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 23:12
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I'm not arguing about the connection stuff, but you don't need those ninja hardware specs to run one instance of one game. You'd only need them for a server hosting many many instances of one particular game.

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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 23:13
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Hmmm...see this is odd...i have a friend with 2 CS servers both on a cable line...running very well might i add...i never thought of a game running at P2P would have that king of trouble especially if you use very good code...remember this is like Client to Client with a server for only a small part so it may run fine...

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Megaman Zero
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 23:16
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P2P isnt MMO, MMO stands for massivly multiplayer online, which means in plus of 50 players, most refered to as an MMO RPG. P2P really only allows for up to 36 max on a Quake 2 style server run on ADSL. MMO also refers to the use of servers instead of a P2P connection to run things, so in excess of 50 players run on a real server, not a dedicated server, not a normal computer.

Basicaly, MMO is not a P2P connection, its the exact opposite of a P2P connection, where everything is run on official servers with no lag, most likely run on a T3 connection with players paying $10-$30 per month for access to these servers.

What you are outlinning is P2P not MMO Server based,

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MikeS
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 23:22
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Eddie, if you really needed the money for the server, what you could do is get a publisher who may pay you like $5000 upfront. Of course the chances of this are unlikely, it's still worth a try. And if you're doing an mmorpg, you've gotta charge at least $5 a month if you wann keep up with yourself.

If you actually get this thing working, you should seriously think of getting a publisher to help you fund your game.




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MikeS
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 23:24
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Bah, we posted at nearly same time.


You could just do a dedicated server, but you'd only be able to host like 64 max. That's not really mmorpg standards, but it'd be a lot cheaper.



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Megaman Zero
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 23:43
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@ yellow

64 players max is very unlikely by todays standards though, Half Life & any of its mods, have about 6-8 players max on a ADSL connection, & it will lag at that, & Half Life graphics arnt too good at all by todays standards now.

@ Fallout

Well, like I had said, if anyone was going to make an MMO game in DBPro, you would need to run at least 4 of the same game on a sever, as 250 players isnt much for an MMO game, normaly you will have 17 main servers with about 1000 players each on them, so you would need a few servers at least to run a real MMO game. In DB, MMO is more like 50 players (which is almost impossible to get due to bad framerates,) but games like EQ, MMO is more around the lines of 500 players per server.

And since DBPro has pretty poor framerate as is, I would recomend at least 4 gigs of ram in your PC to run it at a decent framerate, but 8 gigs would be much better.

Think about it, framerate would jump from about 90-120 to about 210-310 or something along those lines with the specifications that I plotted out.

But you wont be able to run an MMO game going P2P, its physicaly impossible by todays standards. Now if you start a 16 player P2P server, that I can see you doing, but not an MMO server, its impossible by what your describbing.

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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 1st Aug 2003 00:10
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No, see your missing the point its not a MMO or Network or P2P completly it uses other methods to find these things...now, u keep refering to the limits of DBPro by 256, ok, if u want to use direct play go ahead, im not. I am using my own Server protocal type thing...its different...its, well...its like a combo of MMO and Network and it Still uses P2P...its like a listing of servers that are really host client to client client to local client...then they all communicate through a different method...its like a Virtual Server...really structured by some very basic code and a simple DLL...see it only sends certain messages to the players that it matters...now u think it would be slow determining what is mattering and its not...its peer to peer but not like your thinking, it more like we are all connected to the main but we can also be connected to the Section host client and we are also only sending info to those in our sector of the section...its not complicated ether it just takes alot of mental capacity to understand...took me along time im not saying your dumb, no insult intended...anyways, since the Server only recieves the few things that matter to it, it really doesnt matter how much it sends elsewhere cause the server only getting a few things every half second or so, and the rest is handled by the client to client sectors...so instead of actually being connected to the server you are connected to the server to the host client, and so on...so its not like its handling 500 players, its handling those joining the server and its directing them where they should go, and when you save your character it doesnt get sent theyre directly, it goes to an FTP server first then the Server checks for saves every 2 minutes or so...ok thats a mess maybe i should seperate it...naw...

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Fallout
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Posted: 1st Aug 2003 00:49
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Sorry, this isn't direct at anyone in particular, but I'm getting really bored of reading posts in this forum from people who talk like they honestly know what they're talking about. This whole topic is just another example. I'm not claiming I'm an expert either, but these topics are just full of people saying this and that and not really having a clue. It's all educated or uneducated guess work, misinformation, and generally complete cack. Whats worse is it's totally unproductive and will never lead to anything, except a temporary ego boost for the person who things someone else believed in what they said.

haha. I know it's a very unenthusiastic view of the whole thing, but I'm just bored of people exchanging "No, actually, this is how it is" when infact, they don't have a clue either.

Eddie, go, give it a go and see if you can get it working. Good luck to you.

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MikeS
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Posted: 1st Aug 2003 01:03
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Yea, I dunno what I'm talking about.

I just stop posting. I could argue, or take my point about 64 players farther, but it's not worth it.



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Megaman Zero
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Im taking into account examples of other MMO games, like EQ, PSO, & a few others, most are run on about 4-8 gigs of ram, 3.2 overclocked processors with extra fans to cool them, & quite a few other things all written in C or C++, not a game engine, I base my knowledge on what the producers say, & I also take into account what we do at work too.

Most everything that is MMO is server based & very expensive to play online on a month to month basis.

I am in no means the formost expert on computers, I know how to build them from the ground up, & I can make them, I determine what all components you need & compatability issues, which is easier to do than programming BTW, & I know a lot about internet connections in relation to online gaming, as I use this every day at my job installing DSL lines & stuff to all of our buildings that we work on, which goes for a few cities away.

I base my knowledge on the facts, & I take into consideration the different game engines that ive used, to arrive at a conclusion. You probably cant get above 30 people in an online p2p server, due to the poor FPS rate in DB & DBPro, it can be done, but it wont be running to fast at all, as the latency rate will be very bad on every end, & so will the FPS rate, thus making for a very laggy game.

From what I have seen with single player games, I wouldnt go above 8 players due to FPS rate online with a whole bunch of stuff going on at the same time, & the latency rate will be unbearable if you go by todays standards.

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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 1st Aug 2003 20:30 Edited at: 1st Aug 2003 20:31
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Ok, I will try, and it will most likly fail, but at least im gonna give it a go.

And i guess this isnt Defined as MMO its more like a Network Game Locator like Diablo IIs Battle.net, i never ahd trouble running what i call the "Dumb" Version.

Megaman Zero i would like to point out that PSO is not MMO its a Network Multiplayer Game, Mouse and i had a similar arguement a long time ago.

And as for how my game works, well, it only gets a 16 player max per active game...so its really just a Network game that tries to fake "sectors" of areas by making the last person left in the sector the host so that all the others can connect to him...so it psuedo MMO using P2P(so that it passes the host when a person leaves the Sector) and a Network server for locatong games and server names that are technically just folders with data and IPs of the hosts...

So i am not processing information...the 1-5 people that may be in the area will.

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Eddie Gordo
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Fallout what about me using the TCP UDP commands...are those faster...and if i use them then will i be able to use the P3 server with 1252(or sumthing) megs of ram to do this...just curious?

I thought i would ask you about it cause you are knowledgable in this area...

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Eddie Gordo
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Ok i looked at it...and i have an upstream of 356KB so i ran some numbers, heres the Data

64 Player
4 Packets a Second
2 Byte Size of Packets Inbound and Relayed
4 Bytes are Retransmited with the others relayed
64 Again another player for the amount retransmitted

I multiplied those numbers together and came to an upstream of 131KB or so...so its not that hard...my bottleneck will be running multiple services and multile servers...but if i use the ShadowFactor NETWORKS technology i made i wont be transmitting half of that because it decides what players need what information...its Server intensive if not used correctly, and coded properly...but the data transfer is not an issue on just a few(3) server programs...

Any thoughts...maybe i shouldnt run so many programs or at least not as many high count of people servers...any thoughts before i make you eat your arse? lol...i am j/k i wouldnt make u do that...ok, i would...but do you see anything i havnt accounted for...

Bottlenecks are only an issue in the upstream...as long as i dont meet the maximum upstream of 356K i am fine...

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Fallout
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Don't ask me about servers and stuff. I have no clue. I base my rantings on knowledge of what pro-game making companies suggest, and bitrates/packet sizes. I'm not even a protocol expert. All I know is how many connections come in, how many go out, and how much data is gonna be piped around. Compare that to the bitrates of certain connections you can buy, and derive an amount of supportable players.

Obviously, if you made a poker game where you just send the move the person chooses to do every 10 seconds or so, you could make a MMO. For your average game pumping positional, speed, weapon etc. information multiple times per second, then an MMO is gonna need serious connection speed. If this project you're doing is just some sorta connection client P2P game set up blah blah thing, where packets are small, then it may well work.

It's mainly packet size at the end of the day. If you know you're using teeny weeny packets, sending them infrequently, then you can probably make an MMO. The maths just doesn't work if you have lots of frequently transfering large packets, which most games need.

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Eddie Gordo
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ah, ok...so it may be possible if i try to make the packets smaller...and less frequent...

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