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3 Dimensional Chat / Hk usp .40

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Crav3
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Posted: 28th Dec 2008 23:33 Edited at: 29th Dec 2008 01:12
Hi, all
I've been doodling around just randomly for the past few weeks so I thought today I would model something. I ended up modeling a Hk usp .40 caliber. It's a double action only variation so it has a bobbed hammer. Model is still a Wip just have some minor adjustments top do, Then onto UV mapping. I also might make a variant with a laser sight.
C&C welcome.
Enough chit chat, heres some pics:

And teh wireframe.
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 29th Dec 2008 01:06
Very nice, and low-poly too!

Crav3
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Posted: 29th Dec 2008 01:09
Thanks CoffeeGrunt! I try to keep my poly count's as low as possible without losing much detail to the real thing.
Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 29th Dec 2008 03:33
GAH! Damn you Crav3, I was just thinking of making one of these...

Nice work.

prasoc
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Posted: 29th Dec 2008 12:51
Wow the mesh is very "clean" and looks good!
Alucard94
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Posted: 29th Dec 2008 14:49 Edited at: 29th Dec 2008 16:21
As usual I like to complain about N-Gons, whether it matters or not you have a big N-Gon on the hammer of the gun.


Alucard94, the member of the future of the past.
dark coder
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Posted: 29th Dec 2008 16:02
Right, what is it with people on this forum bashing models with polygons that contain more than 4 verts(what some people call n-gons). If you knew anything about modelling you'd know that such polygons are VERY useful, to limit yourself to tris and quads is counter-productive. Sure with such a polygon it can be hard to see the triangulation, but that doesn't mean it's impossible, if your modelling software doesn't fail then you should be able to not only view this, but also edit it.

The hammer in his model is a VERY good example of exactly why polygons are vital, when he modelled that he likely(or could have) started with a single cylinder with maybe 10 sides, he could then have simply moved the vertices while looking at it on the x axis/plane to form the hammer shape and automatically the triangulation will have altered to prevent issues. However, with your crappy quad/triangle cylinder this doesn't work, when you do this you get a nice hammer model, but the triangles on either side are overlapping and facing the wrong direction and all sorts, you must then manually(in max at least) turn the edges to correct this, thus it is counter-productive.

Alucard94
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Posted: 29th Dec 2008 16:19 Edited at: 29th Dec 2008 16:28
The reason why I keep on complaining about N-gons is that they tend to not be very accurate when triangulated, you don't get too much control, sure you can model with how many of them you like but it just (In my opinion I guess, different people have different styles of working) gives you more customization if you actually connect the verts afterwards as you can then control the triangulation much more.

Quote: "Right, what is it with people on this forum bashing models with polygons that contain more than 4 verts"


Since I guess you're directing this towards me, I wouldn't call my post bashing, I was just saying that if he hadn't noticed there is an N-gon back there that he could connect if he wants that option. I didn't come out screaming that the model sucked and started bashing it, I've never done that in my life and I will never do that. Stop thinking that I do, if you now think that.

Quote: "However, with your crappy quad/triangle cylinder this doesn't work, when you do this you get a nice hammer model, but the triangles on either side are overlapping and facing the wrong direction and all sorts, you must then manually(in max at least) turn the edges to correct this, thus it is counter-productive."


What? Obviously you can do that with a normal cylinder with ten sides but with the caps connected to form quads/tris there, it doesn't make any difference, you can still move them in position from the x axis and it would work, I don't see your argument here.
EDIT: Notice that there is no difference between the two cylinders but that one is connected and one is not, it doesn't make a difference. Sure there is a point in the middle that might get a little bit misplaced but come on, you can just snap that into place to make the side planar again.

My point was that sure you can model that way, just that afterwards you can connect the edges to make quads or tris instead of N-Gons.
Another reason why I stress with N-Gons in some cases is that with organic models (So obviously I'm not talking about this case, but since you wondered why I complain) if you model them with N-Gons in them and then try to animate that mesh, you will notice that N-Gons deform horrendously giving you a non-planar hell more or less. Sure you can triangulate the model but in most cases you will have modeled the thing with mostly quads anyways and want to get it animated before exporting to a file format that triangulates the mesh.
So if you have a deforming mesh obviously N-Gons aren't the best thing in the world.
I realize that it can indeed quicken your workflow (For some people, not for me, I tend to like to work without them, but each to his own) if you prefer that, I've never said anything about that, I think you're getting me wrong, I'm just saying that if he is going to use the model in a engine that uses a file format that doesn't triangulate the mesh there might be some strange shading going on where the N-Gon is, if the engine doesn't support them.

EDIT: Also if you have a poly count limit that you must maintain having a lot of N-Gons over the place won't do you justice, since you can't actually see the real triangulated poly count unless you triangulate the mesh. Not really that much of an argument I'll admit but still, it's worth taking up.


Alucard94, the member of the future of the past.
dark coder
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Posted: 29th Dec 2008 17:47 Edited at: 29th Dec 2008 17:51
Quote: "I don't see your argument here."


For example: 3 cylinders, 10 sides



This is fine and all, but if I move 2 of the top verts down(in which a similar move would be done with his hammer), you get:



The one at the bottom shows that you can't really move the middle vert anywhere to fix this, so as you can see, in this instance polygons(with 5+ verts) are very useful. Of course you can get the result on the left by turning all the edges that are overlapping, but this is just a waste of time when you could have used the original cylinder.

Quote: "Another reason why I stress with N-Gons in some cases is that with organic models"


Yes such polygons aren't that helpful with organic models, but why would you make your mesh into them? Lots of people I've seen here box model their organic meshes thus you don't end up with any 5+ vert polygons, unless you manually made them so but that wouldn't make much sense to do.

Quote: "if you model them with N-Gons in them and then try to animate that mesh, you will notice that N-Gons deform horrendously giving you a non-planar hell more or less."


Why would they behave any differently to a tri/quad mesh? It's not like the triangulation of a model gets altered on the fly while it's animated, if your edges are incorrectly turned then you could just edit the triangulation of the polygon to fix this. You almost make it sound like when dealing with only tris+quads you're immune to this issue, which isn't true, it's just many editors highlight polygon edges rather than edges in a polygon's triangulation thus it's easier to notice. The whole purpose of a polygon in a modeller is to make your life easier, it sure makes mechanical objects easier to see.

Quote: "I'm just saying that if he is going to use the model in a engine that uses a file format that doesn't triangulate the mesh there might be some strange shading going on where the N-Gon is, if the engine doesn't support them."


Why would there be strange shading? If such a file format exists that can handle any polygon then surely it would have the ability to allow the triangulation to be saved. Plus this is a bit of a moot point as DirectX only supports triangulated meshes, and from my experience polygons get exported with the retained triangulation I set.

Quote: "Also if you have a poly count limit that you must maintain having a lot of N-Gons over the place won't do you justice, since you can't actually see the real triangulated poly count unless you triangulate the mesh"


So what? The polygon itself is constructed from triangles, I can view these triangles(i.e. the trangulation) if I wanted to, it's not like the same shape in polygon form will have more triangles(when you export it or view the triangulation etc) than a triangulated version of the same shape, so what's your point?

Also this complaint wasn't targeted at only you, I often see on this board people complaining about such polygons and even people tracking them down and removing them from their models :/.

Alucard94
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Posted: 29th Dec 2008 18:03
You make good points. I could continue discussing this but to be honest, I don't think the original poster would be too happy with it.


Alucard94, the member of the future of the past.
Crav3
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Posted: 30th Dec 2008 00:24
Thanks for the feed back guys.
Quote: "I don't think the original poster would be too happy with it"

No it's quite fine. The more information, the better of me understanding.
Alucard, yeah I already knew there was a N-gon but the only purpose was that I wasn't probably going to put this into a game engine. I would put it into fpsc but I'm going to be making spec and normals so yeah, but if I decide to put it into fpsc I can just connect those verts. But I'm pretty sure fpsc can handle N-gons as long as there not deforming. With the hammer it's just going to rotate for the animation anyway.
Crav3
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Posted: 30th Dec 2008 06:50
Hows this? No more N-gons.
Demon Air 3D
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Posted: 30th Dec 2008 12:51 Edited at: 7th Jun 2009 17:15
Awesome model
darimc
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Posted: 30th Dec 2008 16:42
Umm... Actually the front cylinders on the barrel have n-gons. But I don't care, that stuff doesn't matter to me. Looks great, can't wait to see it textured.



QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 30th Dec 2008 23:43
You shouldn't use n-gons in your models. This isn't something that you can argue either way for, you SHOULDN'T. There are a bunch of reasons, including animation and meshsmooth results, workflow in your chosen 3d program, and higher poly > lower poly normal mapping, but the main point is that you have no idea how the model is actually layed out with an n-gon, and you lose that control. If you look at any model made for industry work there are no n-gons, and they are modeled with quads, and triangles where appropriate.

Crav3
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Posted: 31st Dec 2008 00:23
Quote: "awsome model "

Thanks
Quote: "Actually the front cylinders on the barrel have n-gons"

That is the only area which has N-gons, I forgot to mention that I would leave it out. And I've already finished UV mapping. I've also tested it into fpsc and the cylinders look fine from the auto triangulation.

@QuothTheRaven
Yes, I totally understand your point. I will get rid of any N-gons on future models. As for animation, the Barrel which has the only set of N-gons is attached to the bottom half of the gun, so the bottom half will only have 1 bone, so there shouldn't be any false deformation. And the game engine I might import it to is Fpsc, Which Auto triangulates models.
dark coder
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Posted: 31st Dec 2008 19:21 Edited at: 31st Dec 2008 19:27
Quote: "You shouldn't use n-gons in your models. This isn't something that you can argue either way for, you SHOULDN'T."


Sure you should, especially in technical models such as this weapon.

Quote: "There are a bunch of reasons, including animation and meshsmooth results, workflow in your chosen 3d program, and higher poly > lower poly normal mapping"


None of these are negative points and some aren't even points. I don't know what type of animation you're using but last I checked both the Skin and Physique modifiers worked only on the vertices of the model, as such, how the underlying geometry is constructed doesn't matter at all. Yes meshsmooth results do change based on how your polygons are constructed, after all, this does work on edges(of polygons). However, if you were to make a model intended to be meshsmoothed you would know this and you wouldn't deliberately make your extruded/cut edges(to be meshsmoothed) into giant polygons.

For example:

These meshes are the same when triangulated, but the left one has polygons which use far more verts.


When meshsmoothed:

As you can see, the one using quads has the desired result, but this is because meshsmooth works on edges, if I were to make such a mesh I would never use polygons with more than 4 verts in such a place, but this doesn't mean such polygons can't be used when meshsmoothing. Thus this point is moot.


Also the workflow is faster with polygons with more than 4 verts anyway(most of the time), you have to do less selection to do certain things. Besides quads ARE polygons so what are you even complaining about? The only difference between a quad and a cylinder cap(with more than 4 sides) is the amount of vertices it has.

And what of the polygon mapping to a lower detail mesh? Usually you only use polygons with many verts on flat, or flat-ish surfaces, thus such mapping wouldn't have any bearing on this.

Quote: "but the main point is that you have no idea how the model is actually layed out with an n-gon, and you lose that control."


Of course you do, you do realise these 3D applications draw traingles in your viewport, thus they have to be constructed of triangles somehow. If you've ever gone beyond the basics of max you'd know that you have the ability to view the triangulation of a polygon without actually triangulating it. If you go to your lovely Editable Poly modifier, go to edge mode and Turn or Edit Tri you can see the triangulation. If the triangle order is causing you issues during animation then you could just turn the edge, like you would if your model was fully triangulated. You still get this issue with quads you know.

Quote: "If you look at any model made for industry work there are no n-gons, and they are modeled with quads, and triangles where appropriate."


A quad is a polygon so yes they are. Here's one example(http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=4762&page=2) of industry work that uses polygons, it wasn't that easy finding a wireframe render though. If you scroll down to the video the right of the 'Priorities' heading and scroll the video to about 3/4, until it says Wireframe Singstar(NOT the gun), you can clearly see several polygons beyond quads used in the upper armour.

So to conclude: Polygons are very useful, they are only bad if you don't know how to model and mess something up, they can speed up workflow and really aid in selections of meshes, UV mapping, visualizing the mesh etc etc.

And remember that I'm not saying you should make as many large polygons as possible, but that having them isn't necessarily a bad thing, and doing things like tracking them down and removing them when they aren't a decrement to the mesh is stupid.

Crav3
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2009 12:16
thanks for the info.
Update, I've just started on the texture for the slide.

I'm not sure but is there meant to be a white dot on the front sight as well?
Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2009 12:42
AAAAAH! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

You make me feel bad, I can't texture that awesome....

Crav3
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2009 23:17
Lol thanks toasty, All it takes is practice. And hopefully the normal map will make up for missing details. The render seems a bit dark, when i looked at it a second time I couldn't even see the writing usp at the front.
SamHH
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Posted: 4th Jan 2009 16:53
Looks great Crave!
Whats the texture size you are using?


Crav3
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 00:12
Thanks Sam, I'm using 2048x2048, but when I finish I'll downsize it to 1024.
I haven't done much because I'm a bit busy lately. so all i had time for was just testing out the normals.
Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 00:53
If swearing was not against the rules, this thread would be a profanity pit right about now. Great work.

HKCrazy
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Posted: 12th Jan 2009 01:27
Your texture says USP 9x19, so your USP is not going to be .40 S&W?
Crav3
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Posted: 12th Jan 2009 06:49 Edited at: 12th Jan 2009 06:49
That is correct, I don't know to much about the hk series of weapons, instead I just used a reference which also had some info about the gun.

Anyway I'm straying away from what I'm meant to be doing which is my urban pack so for now I'm going to call this one finito and maybe sometime in the future I'll remake it. The texture was only half done.


Xsnip3rX
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Posted: 12th Jan 2009 08:55
Amazing, plain and simple.

Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 12th Jan 2009 11:09
Nice, could we see some minus the ambient occlusion?

Crav3
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Posted: 12th Jan 2009 23:21 Edited at: 12th Jan 2009 23:21
Actually there is no Ambient occlusion, All shadows where painted on and the scene render is just a couple of omni lights with shadows turned off.
Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 13th Jan 2009 03:35
Wow, that is good.

Could we see one with amb occ?

Encrypto Studios
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Posted: 15th Jan 2009 21:47
looks very good!!!
but, im not sure what your using this for but i would get rid of the brand name(H&K). if its for commercial wouldn't that be copyright?
correct me if I'm wrong.

E.S.

Zuka
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Posted: 18th Jan 2009 01:18
You make me sad because my gun is nothing compared to that. >.<

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