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FPSC Classic Product Chat / [LOCKED] Even we aren't safe from pirates...

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Marc Steene
FPSC Master
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Posted: 4th Jan 2009 19:18
I was looking up Anderson and the legacy of Cthulu reviews today, and came across various torrent sites with the game on. It goes to show even the games that we make aren't safe from piracy. Personally, I think they should have used Pheonix, I haven't bought it yet but it looks great

Coming Soon...
Zdrok
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Posted: 4th Jan 2009 19:20 Edited at: 4th Jan 2009 19:21
Every PC game, no matter if it's protected or not, will get pirated. Simple as that. I recommend you tell Ertlov about this matter.



Shadow Blade
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Posted: 4th Jan 2009 19:20
Its a shame about piracy

In the not so distant future we'll have to turn to programs like steam

There's no I in Team but there is an I in Pie! And Meat is anagram of Team, and Meat Pie is a kind of Pie! - Shaun of The Dead
Gunn3r
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Posted: 4th Jan 2009 19:51
Or GameXS, for indie games. Steam has indie game support, but it has to be AAA quality to get it...

Gunn3r Games
Demon Air 3D
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Posted: 4th Jan 2009 20:02
they pirate my game and ill kick there a**, wait i dont have a game
Rampage
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Posted: 4th Jan 2009 22:51
Even I have had my software I have made put on torrent sites.
It is very disheartening indeed...
My software.


"Welcome to the forums, MasterXMP. Your game looks like garbage..." - Game Maker
Zeldar
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 02:16
In other news, the sun is hot and the earth is round. What? I just had to say it.

Signed, Zeldar
.....what?
crispex
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 02:36
Face it people, you will never stop piracy. People will still manage a way to get what they want. Telling someone about it isn't really going to help either, as pirates will not listen to that someone.

Temporarly away from the Phoenix Sentry.
puppyofkosh
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 02:57
That doesn't mean you can't reduce the amount it happens...
Jingle Fett
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 05:31
BTW, has anyone used Steamworks? Valve released it for free a while ago and it has an anti-piracy suite and everything...
_ _ _

You can't stop piracy, it's impossible. Personally, I'd be thrilled if my game were on loads of piracy sites or whatever. Honest to God, I would. Why? Because that means the game is worth pirating. It'd mean that everyone wants it. And actually, the harder you try to stop pirates, the harder they'll try to crack it. They see it as a challenge and will do it just to show the can. The sales of Sins of a Solar Empire are pretty good, and it is dead easy to pirate (you don't even need a CD key). Spore on the other hand (and Crysis and The Sims) are all at the top on torrent sites. All happen to be owned by EA, which puts Securom on almost all their games (I know that in the case of Spore, many people pirated it simply out of spite due to Securom). Pirates will get to a game one way or another. Now I'm not encouraging piracy, but I personally don't mind it. Instead of fighting them, I'd just work around them, or factor them into the equation. And make it so that people DON'T want to pirate it by offering benefits to people who register their CD key or whatever and make registering dead easy and convenient.

-- H.K. --

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Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 08:09
Ertlov already knows about this, and he was pleased with it to some extent. Can't remember why.

crispex
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 11:28 Edited at: 5th Jan 2009 11:31
As said above, many would be thrilled to have their games pirated. EA is smart, they include online play in most of their games, and they check your CD key when you attempt to play online, so if you are using a keygen or crack, they can detect it, and it will refuse to play. It's a smart system, because people like me buy games mainly for their online features.

I will fully admit I downloaded games before, simply to test them out. Seriously, why blow $50 on a game I'm not even sure I care for? 100% of the time I delete it when I am done anyway, I then decide whether to buy the game or not. I bought Counter-Strike 1.6, Counter-Strike: Source, Half Life, and Battlefield 2, simply because they were great games and worth paying the price. Does this make this right? Definitely not, but it saves me money.

Temporarly away from the Phoenix Sentry.
Nickydude
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 16:45
Telling everyone you've pirated games is something the TGC certainly doesn't condone. Whether you have or not please don't advertise the fact.

dennisb
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 17:21
I found my game pirated on the web shortly after it's release when i did a search for my game to see where it was turning up. I was pretty mad because I put a lot of work into it, but unfortunately you just can't stop pirates, and the people who go to those pirate sites probably wouldn't buy the game anyway as they are just criminals. I bought copy protection and everything for my game, I guess like they say, it's to keep honest people honest, that's why I didn't put really heavy protection on my game that would make it difficult for honest people to install or anything.

crispex
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 21:17
Quote: "Telling everyone you've pirated games is something the TGC certainly doesn't condone. Whether you have or not please don't advertise the fact."


No no, I haven't done that in a long time. I've moved on from doing such activities, I mostly play PS3 games now anyway.

Temporarly away from the Phoenix Sentry.
Indy Dude
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 21:51
It is a shame games are getting pirated, but like many of you said all games get pirated.
Quantum Fusion
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 22:18 Edited at: 5th Jan 2009 22:21
Quote: "Face it people, you will never stop piracy. People will still manage a way to get what they want. Telling someone about it isn't really going to help either, as pirates will not listen to that someone."


You wanna bet.

Pirates, hackers, crackers, virus/trojan creators can be stopped.

It's a quite evil idea, but if someone was ballsy enough they could create a damaging blow to the hacker community.

Hackers/crackers/pirates need tools to carry out their crap.

So you simply grab a bunch of their tools, embed code that spreads itself on their system (unknowingly) when they use these hacking tools. Make the code activate itself on a certain date and time (months in time to give time to be passed from hacker to hacker), and have it check which OS its running, and it begins erasing critical OS files, and corrupting their BIOS. Then the program erases itself.

Their computers would become useless.

Someone more knowledgeable about computers could probable create something to stop fans and cooling of chips and other parts that would really make their computers into a lump of useless plastic and metal.

If it happened to enough hackers/crackers/pirates in one shot they'd think twice before returning to their hobby for fear of having to replace parts for their machines.

Dual-Core Pentium D @ 3.00GHz, 1.0 GB nVidia GeForce 8500 GT, 20" Wide screen LCD @ 10,000:1 Contrast, 4.0 GB DDR2 SDRAM, Triple-boot: 32-bit Windows XP MCE, 64-bit Vista, 64-bit Linux Ubuntu
Benjamin
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 22:21
Quote: "So you simply grab a bunch of their tools, embed code that spreads itself on their system (unknowingly) when they use these hacking tools. Make the code activate itself on a certain date and time (months in time to give time to be passed from hacker to hacker), and have it check which OS its running, and it begins erasing critical OS files, and corrupting their BIOS. Then the program erases itself."

And then you get put in jail for breaking the law.

crispex
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 22:21
A smart hacker would find out about system issues before hand. A smart hacker has examined the operating system (usually Linux, or a form of Unix), and known all of it's components. You can never stop piracy, because even if the "tools" were corrupted, they simply find others, and not all hackers might use the same tools.

Temporarly away from the Phoenix Sentry.
Quantum Fusion
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 22:35
Quote: "And then you get put in jail for breaking the law."


Money is power in this world, especially if it ensures corporate protection of assets.

Destroy 100,000 or more hackers computers, do you think the software giants will not pressure government to drop charges? Simply to protect their main assets from piracy and loss of income.

Do you think anyone who has fallen victim to viruses, trojans, identity theft would not stand on your behalf?

Enough pressure and lobbying would make the case dropped because it would be in the best interest of the major software developing corporations income.

Quote: "A smart hacker would find out about system issues before hand. A smart hacker has examined the operating system (usually Linux, or a form of Unix), and known all of it's components. You can never stop piracy, because even if the "tools" were corrupted, they simply find others, and not all hackers might use the same tools."


Most arent too bright, and simply use tools that they did not create themselves. Therefore only know a few basics and loopholes.

Just take a look at hackers forums, many really have no clue what they are doing, but are able to do anything because of the tools at their disposal.

Dual-Core Pentium D @ 3.00GHz, 1.0 GB nVidia GeForce 8500 GT, 20" Wide screen LCD @ 10,000:1 Contrast, 4.0 GB DDR2 SDRAM, Triple-boot: 32-bit Windows XP MCE, 64-bit Vista, 64-bit Linux Ubuntu
Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 23:22 Edited at: 5th Jan 2009 23:23
Quote: "Most arent too bright, and simply use tools that they did not create themselves. Therefore only know a few basics and loopholes."

Yeah, the smart ones never let you know that they were there.
The rookies want you to know that they were there.


Quote: "Just take a look at hackers forums, many really have no clue what they are doing, but are able to do anything because of the tools at their disposal."

More than half of those places are honey pots.


Quote: "Pirates, hackers, crackers, virus/trojan creators can be stopped.

It's a quite evil idea, but if someone was ballsy enough they could create a damaging blow to the hacker community.

Hackers/crackers/pirates need tools to carry out their crap.

So you simply grab a bunch of their tools, embed code that spreads itself on their system (unknowingly) when they use these hacking tools. Make the code activate itself on a certain date and time (months in time to give time to be passed from hacker to hacker), and have it check which OS its running, and it begins erasing critical OS files, and corrupting their BIOS. Then the program erases itself.

Their computers would become useless.

Someone more knowledgeable about computers could probable create something to stop fans and cooling of chips and other parts that would really make their computers into a lump of useless plastic and metal."

Planting damaging software on someone unsuspecting?
YAY!
Let's resort to their level.



On a side note:
I prefer the term Buccaneer, but it is harder to remember how to spell.



Now, where did I put my letter of marque?

It is funny how pirates always get a bad rap.
The Pirates invented dimocracy before the French or American revolutions.
Each man had an equal vote.
Their method was better though; an open show of hands.
No secrets and no cheating on counting the votes.
Every man knows where every man stands, and they all stand together as a whole.
It was okay for them to plunder in the name of the Queen, but when the war was over and they did it for themselves...

Bah!
Filthy landlubbers!

News flash: Most of the major viruses are developed by antivirus software developers.

crispex
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 23:23
...You can't judge by hacker forums. Real hackers (usually people who make keygens and such) program things on their own, and do not generally associate with anyone outside of their group, because hackers often compete to see who does best and such.

Temporarly away from the Phoenix Sentry.
Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 23:25 Edited at: 5th Jan 2009 23:33
Quote: "Real hackers (usually people who make keygens and such) program things on their own, and do not generally associate with anyone outside of their group, because hackers often compete to see who does best and such."


Yup, and lots of times they only are attacking each others systems.
It is called security research.


Quote: "Even I have had my software I have made put on torrent sites.
It is very disheartening indeed...
My software."


Well, if anyone finds any of my stuff there, then please give me a link.
Not so I can bust them, but so I can check it out before I celebrate.
It is kinda nice to know that your work is so highly desired that people would risk their freedom for it.
That is the most ironic thing about the torrent sites...
Eventually, when the o=users do get busted, their fines and court costs would far exceed the value of the items being stolen.
Especially when this "software" is a digital download only costing pennies to create and transfer.
That too brings us back to why people steal it.
Is AutoDesk losing $3500 when someone bootlegs 3ds max or are they losing just the cost of the download?
Nobody visiting a torrent site would have ever been a paying customer anyway, so they really didn't lose a thing.

Benjamin
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 23:31
A lot of software is cracked by a single person or team, possibly with just generic tools, and is then torrented by tens of thousands of people. There is a fair bit of malicious software out there under the guise of keygens and whatnot, but I don't think the authors of these tools will be getting any support from software developers if they get arrested for it, because it's just not very effective and it's illegal for many reasons. And two wrongs do not make a right.

Quote: "News flash: Most of the major viruses are developed by antivirus software developers."

I'd like to see you back up that statement with some proof.

Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 23:34 Edited at: 5th Jan 2009 23:37
Quote: "A lot of software is cracked by a single person or team, possibly with just generic tools, and is then torrented by tens of thousands of people."

And not one of those ten thousand would have ever been a paying customer anyway.
So, what did they lose?

Quote: "I'd like to see you back up that statement with some proof."

I don't have the proof or need it(where's the proof of your statements?), but I do have enough understanding to know who stands to gain financially from any virus.
They have more motivation to create a virus and more to gain from it than anyone else.
Hard to imagine that their staff can so quickly address the issues as they arise, almost as if they already had the cure prior to the outbreak.

Benjamin
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 23:36
Quote: "And not one of those ten thousand would have ever been a paying customer anyway."

I'm glad you're so confident of this, because I'm not, and neither are the major software developers by the looks of it.

Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 23:38 Edited at: 5th Jan 2009 23:46
Quote: "I'm glad you're so confident of this, because I'm not, and neither are the major software developers by the looks of it."

You honesty think that the users of torrent sites (most of which are children not being adaquately supervised by their parents) would have ever purchased those products?

No the truth is that very little money is actually lost from piracy.
How much exactly? I do not know. The manufacturers do not know. It is anyone's guess.
I am confident though, that piracy is an isolated issue occuring only in those cirlces, and that the other 99% of honest people still pay for their products.

I feel (no proof for feelings) that piracy is another thing blown out of proportion so that lawmakers, politicians, and corporate heads can appropriate funds for their "war on.." campain against it.

Avid
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 23:44 Edited at: 5th Jan 2009 23:49
Edit: Post made redundant by posts made whilst typing.

Conjured is right though, very few of them are paying customers or capable of paying.

In India for example, they have to pirate to play games as £30 is equal to two months wages. You can't say any of them could afford to pay for the games ever.

I remember reading somewhere about Autodesk not caring particularly, because quite often the people who pirated their software join a commercial studio and recommend to purchase their software, so it's like free advertising.

Visit my site http://www.fpsmodels.com for models and media for fps creator.
Benjamin
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 23:46
Quote: "You honesty think that the users of torrent sites (most of which are children not being adaquately supervised by their parents) would have ever purchased those product?"

Yes, I honestly do. I personally know several people who have always checked torrent sites before going out and buying it instead. If you can get it free, why not? At least that's an attitude many people seem to have. It's unfortunate really.

Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 23:51 Edited at: 5th Jan 2009 23:53
Quote: "Ok, so we have fantasy ideas about a program erasing the BIOS and then itself."

Whose Idea was that?

My new Fantasy virus is a mutating one.
It creates rather than destroying.
It also attaches itself to other files.
It needs to change the system date first though to make tracking the new files harder.
Each file it writes has the ability to write more files, so each one carries out farther mutations.
Each programming language writing files in another language, as to create further confusion.

It's continuing mission..."to boldly go where no virus has gone before!"

PowerSoft
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 23:52
Quote: "No the truth is that very little money is actually lost from piracy."

Interesting theory...lets put it to the test. Company X make product Y which costs them £100000 to make (including fixed costs and variable costs). This product sells at £50 a piece.

If we then assume that everyone pirates the product how much as this buccaneering cost the company? Nothing? No I think it is more likely to be £100000. Your logic is flawed my friend.

(Reductio ad Absurdum?)

Software and Web Application Design.
Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 5th Jan 2009 23:54 Edited at: 6th Jan 2009 00:22
Quote: "Interesting theory...lets put it to the test. Company X make product Y which costs them £100000 to make (including fixed costs and variable costs). This product sells at £50 a piece.

If we then assume that everyone pirates the product how much as this buccaneering cost the company? Nothing? No I think it is more likely to be £100000. Your logic is flawed my friend."

That is your logic not mine.
Quote: "Reductio ad Absurdum?"

Yeah, what you said is absurd.
I never assumed that eveyone pirates the product.
On the contrary, I said that 99% of the honest people would pay.

That is your logic and your own understanding that is flawed here if anything.

Here is another assumption for you... Take that same company and product and now count zero sales.
Who said that any of those units would have ever sold in the first place?
They have no guarantee of any sales or profit at all, so assume that first...Reductio ad Absurdum


So what happens when company Z creates the same product and offers it for free on some promotional campaign for brand name awareness?
Will company X still have the same losses?
What is the difference in corporate competiton and piracy?

Unless they have a monopoly going then there are going to be outside forces eating away at their profits. Period.

Piracy [stealing] will be around as long as there is poverty, so get used to it.
The only way to slow it down is to offer something free, hence the trials offers on software.

My logic might not be in the expected format, but it isn't flawed or absurd, just unique.

xplosys
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Posted: 6th Jan 2009 01:28 Edited at: 6th Jan 2009 01:32
Quote: "Company X make product Y which costs them £100000 to make (including fixed costs and variable costs). This product sells at £50 a piece.

If we then assume that everyone pirates the product how much as this buccaneering cost the company? Nothing? No I think it is more likely to be £100000."


Your computation is very much like that of the BSA, who pretty much makes up the numbers concerning dollar loss from piracy. Of course they make their money from preventing it, so it's to their benefit to compute the loss as high as possible.

They take the "anticipated demand" for software in any given country. They measure that against the number of copies actually delivered, and the difference multiplied by the cost of the software is the loss due to piracy.

To bring that closer to home, you have to assume that everyone who models on this forum is going to buy 3ds Max. (anticipated demand)Then you have to assume that everyone on this forum who uses a pirated copy of 3ds Max would actually buy it if the pirated copy were not available. Take the number of modelers on this forum, subtract the number of people who own a legal copy of 3ds Max, and multiply the difference by the cost of the software. According to the BSA, that's the cost of piracy to Autodesk on this forum.

Best.

Quantum Fusion
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Posted: 6th Jan 2009 02:15
Quote: "YAY!
Let's resort to their level."


It's called fighting fire with fire.

People's livelyhood's are affected by piracy and theft. If I had a company whose product was stolen to a point it affected me and my employees, you bet your ass I'd make sure it'd stop.

Piracy is nothing more than organized crime, and should be treated as such.

Those that use this term "stooping to their level" will continue to turn the other cheek and keep being victimized because the ones doing the bad things know that they have no spine and will not defend themselves at no cost .... so they will keep doing it because there is no threat to them.

Raise the stakes and you'll see how many will say "its not worth it, I'm not going to do it".

Dual-Core Pentium D @ 3.00GHz, 1.0 GB nVidia GeForce 8500 GT, 20" Wide screen LCD @ 10,000:1 Contrast, 4.0 GB DDR2 SDRAM, Triple-boot: 32-bit Windows XP MCE, 64-bit Vista, 64-bit Linux Ubuntu
crispex
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Posted: 6th Jan 2009 02:18
About the anti-virus statement: Totally agree. What use would someone have for making a virus? Yes, there are some motives behind it, mainly just to see others freak out, but not many would risk it.

Without viruses, anti-virus companies would not exist. Same goes with smoking. Smoking is really population control, as well as cancer. Why do you think that smoking has not been outlawed? It's been known to kill, but it keeps the medical centers open, and the taxes on them help stimulate the economy. Same goes with anti-virus.

Temporarly away from the Phoenix Sentry.
Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 6th Jan 2009 05:41
lol laugh it up, but now I know the real reason alot of people left here.

That wasn't funny.

I lost a lot of stuff, but my fault for not having a recent backup huh?

I'm done here.

Plystire
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Posted: 6th Jan 2009 05:57
Interesting thread we've developed here.

Quote: "Why do you think that smoking has not been outlawed?"


For the same reason alcoholic beverages were outlawed and then made legal again. People want it and when you make it illegal to have... crime rates vastly increase since people who are hooked (or just rebellious) will do pretty much anything to get it.

Outlawing smoking is a retarded idea, even most non-smokers know that. That's like....... outlawing McDonalds because it increases your chance of a heart attack or stroke.


The one and only,


fallen one
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Posted: 6th Jan 2009 10:20 Edited at: 6th Jan 2009 10:22
Quote: "Ertlov already knows about this, and he was pleased with it to some extent. Can't remember why."


It is because the publisher made huge amounts of money from the game and didn't pay him royalties, just the change in its back pocket, while they made massive profits, he ended up losing huge amounts from lost royalties, in a word he was totally ripped off. So there's something for the wide eyed trusting types to think about.

As a note, 4% of people are sociopaths and will never pay for anything if they can get away with not doing so, they will also roll you in any way possible as the have no morality, empathy or ability to be shamed or feel guilt in any way at all, in the same way as animals don't have the ability to laugh or the desire to dance to music, sociopaths don't feel guilt or empathy.

As your pet cat isn't going to break out in a fit of laughter at any merriment, as its incapable of doing so, the sociopath are incapable of feeling guilt or empathy, so the sociopath will not think twice to do you over, its just a fact of life that you have to accept, and the sociopath is at every level in society period, in fact many are hidden at the top as sociopaths are excellent at getting to the top by any means necessary. When you define the world you have to put that into your equation.

crispex
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Posted: 6th Jan 2009 11:46 Edited at: 6th Jan 2009 12:00
Quote: "People's livelyhood's are affected by piracy and theft. If I had a company whose product was stolen to a point it affected me and my employees, you bet your ass I'd make sure it'd stop."


Oh really? That might be true, but take this into consideration: Open source. For anyone who might not know what open source is, it's software that is freely available, and so is the source. The source can be edited and improved, for no pay. So in contrary, open source has put more programmers out of jobs than piracy has. Hence, Microsoft doesn't like open source, because it takes away from people who program software to put some food on the table. Piracy does not actually take away directly. Their are roughly 6 billion people in the world, about 5 million or so pirate a copy of something, big deal, right? Not really. Because if you think of the ratio of people who pay for it versus people who stole, the results favor people who bought it. People are clearly buying the software, else it would not have a great reputation or it would not be as popular. Also, for software that does not offer a free trial, and ships via CD, people are clearly buying it to simply distribute it, so either way it's win/lose for both sides. And what I mean when I say piracy does not affect the programmer directly, is simply meaning that roughly 40% of the people who use the software would have to have it stolen to make a deep impact, otherwise people would generally not care. Take Adobe for example, their software is relatively easy to crack (no personal experience, I know people who have cracked it though, I personally paid for Photoshop before, as it is worth it), but yet Adobe refuses to go after these pirates and take them down. It would cost more money and popularity to try to take someone down than it would to just face facts that it's going to be distributed. If people were smart, they would simply buy the software if they liked it, and realize that the company needed the cash otherwise they would not sell it for the price they did.

Temporarly away from the Phoenix Sentry.
Butter fingers
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Posted: 6th Jan 2009 12:06 Edited at: 6th Jan 2009 14:33
Quote: "I am confident though, that piracy is an isolated issue occuring only in those cirlces, and that the other 99% of honest people still pay for their products.I feel (no proof for feelings) that piracy is another thing blown out of proportion so that lawmakers, politicians, and corporate heads can appropriate funds for their "war on.." campain against it."


I did video game distribution for my marketing discertation, and I remember being shocked by a figure on mintel that said 37% of all software installed on computers around the world is pirated. That's a massive loss to companies. I found buttercutter and LyteFX of various download sites, and it really made me angry. Every download from there cost me money.
To be honest, if someone had put umbra on a torrent, I wouldn't care, it was free, and so the more people playing it, no matter where they got it, the better.

Quote: ""Why do you think that smoking has not been outlawed?""

simple answer - TAX. Tobacco and Alcohol tax make governments massive amounts of revenue each year through tax. Outlawing them would not only lose them this revenue, but also cost them money in policing these newly outlawed substances. It's really quite sick, that they rate money over the health of people. Of course, I think all drugs should be legalised, and controlled. At least then we'd know what we were buying!

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crispex
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Posted: 6th Jan 2009 12:14
Quote: "simple answer - TAX. Tobacco and Alcohol tax make governments massive amounts of revenue each year through tax. Outlawing them would not only lose them this revenue, but also cost them money in policing these newly outlawed substances. It's really quite sick, that they rate money over the health of people. Of course, I think all drugs should be legalised, and controlled. At least then we'd know what we were buying!"


Exactly. Without smoking, our economy would be worse off as it is. Same, as said, with anti-virus. There is no possible way anti-virus companies can find out what a virus infects before it even comes out. It's been known that Norton has signs that rouge spyware often have, such as fake virus definitions. The fact is that some of the dirtiest things in the world produce the most profit. Prostitution would be legal if taxes were payed on it, believe it or not.

Temporarly away from the Phoenix Sentry.
dark coder
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Posted: 6th Jan 2009 12:48 Edited at: 6th Jan 2009 12:49
Quote: "Prostitution would be legal if taxes were payed on it, believe it or not."


Depends which type you're referring to, but in some states it is.

The idea some of you are putting forward to infect crackers/hackers etc is asinine to say the least. Even if you infected the tools they used there's almost no way you'd be able to distribute it to them unless they are complete morons.

Furthermore, even if 50% of all software on every computer on this planet is pirate, that doesn't mean 50% of sales were lost. 50% of potential sales maybe; but there's no guarantee that if piracy was impossible that this 50% of software would instead be purchased legally. For the simple reason that it's simple to pirate things these days, anyone can download a myriad of applications they don't want to use and not pay anything for it, this doesn't mean that they would normally pay for it. Maybe if there was no piracy they'd spend more time trying the demos, reading the reviews, taking training courses etc etc.

Also this isn't the exact same topic, but I believe I read somewhere that the next prince Of Persia game would be released on the PC without any advanced copy protection(i.e. DRM) for the sole purpose of testing the reasoning behind many pirate's views that games get pirated more because of copy protection.

TGPEG
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Posted: 6th Jan 2009 13:14
Aha. Piracy again...

Half of me says not to get involved after what happened last time.

What we could really do with is something like Steam for FPSC users to release their games on. If only.

[center]
djmaster
User Banned
Posted: 6th Jan 2009 16:46
heh tgc wont,they dont have enough money to buy such server for all the games uploaded,even then it would be cracked.instead of steam theres pacsteam you can download all games freely beacause the app is cracked,no way around and the circle continiues,just we dont know how and they dont lose much,they just make themselves sad so people believe it

Current FPSC Projects:
When Zombies Attack-20% (ON HOLD)
Doomsday RPG-5%
Quantum Fusion
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Posted: 6th Jan 2009 17:03
Quote: "Oh really? That might be true, but take this into consideration: Open source. For anyone who might not know what open source is, it's software that is freely available, and so is the source. The source can be edited and improved, for no pay. So in contrary, open source has put more programmers out of jobs than piracy has. Hence, Microsoft doesn't like open source, because it takes away from people who program software to put some food on the table. Piracy does not actually take away directly. Their are roughly 6 billion people in the world, about 5 million or so pirate a copy of something, big deal, right? Not really. Because if you think of the ratio of people who pay for it versus people who stole, the results favor people who bought it. People are clearly buying the software, else it would not have a great reputation or it would not be as popular. Also, for software that does not offer a free trial, and ships via CD, people are clearly buying it to simply distribute it, so either way it's win/lose for both sides. And what I mean when I say piracy does not affect the programmer directly, is simply meaning that roughly 40% of the people who use the software would have to have it stolen to make a deep impact, otherwise people would generally not care. Take Adobe for example, their software is relatively easy to crack (no personal experience, I know people who have cracked it though, I personally paid for Photoshop before, as it is worth it), but yet Adobe refuses to go after these pirates and take them down. It would cost more money and popularity to try to take someone down than it would to just face facts that it's going to be distributed. If people were smart, they would simply buy the software if they liked it, and realize that the company needed the cash otherwise they would not sell it for the price they did."


But programmers are choosing to join open source projects and develop for free, so they are creating their own fate by taking away jobs for themselves.

I believe that piracy affects mainly medium and small companies the most (especially those who are trying grow from nothing into established companies). Companies like Adobe, Microsoft, etc, have little damage because they are already established and have huge funds and huge incomes. But what about those small-time companies who are trying to offer legit competition and produce good products. Piracy can literally ruin them, then the consumers suffer because something new (that may have been better at a better price) would have offered some competition in the market.

Dual-Core Pentium D @ 3.00GHz, 1.0 GB nVidia GeForce 8500 GT, 20" Wide screen LCD @ 10,000:1 Contrast, 4.0 GB DDR2 SDRAM, Triple-boot: 32-bit Windows XP MCE, 64-bit Vista, 64-bit Linux Ubuntu
Conjured Entertainment
AGK Developer
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Posted: 6th Jan 2009 17:38 Edited at: 6th Jan 2009 18:19
Quote: "As a note, 4% of people are sociopaths and will never pay for anything if they can get away with not doing so, they will also roll you in any way possible as the have no morality, empathy or ability to be shamed or feel guilt in any way at all, in the same way as animals don't have the ability to laugh or the desire to dance to music, sociopaths don't feel guilt or empathy.

As your pet cat isn't going to break out in a fit of laughter at any merriment, as its incapable of doing so, the sociopath are incapable of feeling guilt or empathy, so the sociopath will not think twice to do you over, its just a fact of life that you have to accept, and the sociopath is at every level in society period, in fact many are hidden at the top as sociopaths are excellent at getting to the top by any means necessary. When you define the world you have to put that into your equation."

But that cat will eat the dog's food even when there is food in the cat's dish.
Many want what they don't have, and some will take a risk on getting it.


Quote: "Oh really? That might be true, but take this into consideration: Open source. For anyone who might not know what open source is, it's software that is freely available, and so is the source. The source can be edited and improved, for no pay. So in contrary, open source has put more programmers out of jobs than piracy has. Hence, Microsoft doesn't like open source, because it takes away from people who program software to put some food on the table. "

OMG
People can learn from open source, so it helps programmers.
Open source also lets you know what exactly is going on in the software that you install.
That is why MicroSoft does not support open source, because it revealed their marketing spyware.

Quote: "I did video game distribution for my marketing discertation, and I remember being shocked by a figure on mintel that said 37% of all software installed on computers around the world is pirated. "

I can agree with that estimate since it is global.
Most pirated software is in China so their percentage is way higher. (so is their population)
However, again we have to ask ourselves if that 37% (mostly poor in developing nations) would have ever made the purchase anyway.

Honest people pay for their software. Period.

Dishonest people Pirate their software. Period

Poverty forces a lot of people into being dishonest, and yes there are a few sociopaths who will steal even if they have money. (like that shoplifting actress)

There are no real losses from software piracy because those people would have never made a purchase anyway!
Nothing you can say or do will ever change that.

If anything it is more exposure and free advertising for the companies because there product is now seen by more cutomers who are able and willing to pay.
This was mentioned earlier about Autodesk's outlook on piracy, and I think that they better understand the issue than those who prefer to battle in a never ending war.


Quote: "simple answer - TAX. Tobacco and Alcohol tax make governments massive amounts of revenue each year through tax. "

Also freedom of choice.
That is what I dislike most about anti-smoking campaigns.
They remind me of religious fanatics.
Always trying to bend the whole world into sharing their beliefs or wants.
If someone wants to smoke tobacco, then let them.
That second hand smoke is no worse than the emmisions from your cars.
So stop driving vehicles that burn fossil fuels or shut the heck up about people smoking tobacco.
Otherwise it is plain hypocrtical.

Quote: "But programmers are choosing to join open source projects and develop for free, so they are creating their own fate by taking away jobs for themselves."

Or they are creating their own fates by showing off their talents that will get them recognized and possibly job offers.

Are you anti-opensource guys telling me that Linus is hurting since he made Linux open source?

You guys need to wake up and smell the roses on the open source issue.
Its all about security and its a good thing.
No country is going to have its national security depending on unknown software.
That is why governments demand open source and why MicroSoft has a choice; comply with their demand or lose out to the competition.

Open Source is the future, so you might want to learn to use it to your advantage rather than seeing it as an enemy.

Open Source and Piracy have another thing in common.

The choice is yours.

Benjamin
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Posted: 6th Jan 2009 18:19
Quote: "There are no real losses from software piracy because those people would have never made a purchase anyway!"

Well, you continue losing money from your pirated developments while the rest of us try to combat it.

Conjured Entertainment
AGK Developer
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Posted: 6th Jan 2009 18:24 Edited at: 6th Jan 2009 18:24
Quote: "Well, you continue losing money from your pirated developments while the rest of us try to combat it."

I'm losing money?
lol
Now I have to consider what I could have made?
Hypothetical money! LOL

Again, who is to say that anyone would have ever bought it in the first place.

Sales:
Expect none and appreciate all.

I would rather spend the time developing something rather than complain about money that I never had anyway.
Which reminds me why I need to leave this thread.

Benjamin
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Posted: 6th Jan 2009 18:33
Quote: "Hypothetical money!"

It was a hypothetical statement.

Quantum Fusion
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Posted: 6th Jan 2009 19:06
Quote: "Open Source is the future, so you might want to learn to use it to your advantage rather than seeing it as an enemy."


Unfortunately anything free is doomed. Open source will never be the future.

Here's an example:

I've lived in a county that had a high amount of computer owners in it. The internet was gaining popularity at the time. So the county decided to make the internet available to everyone in the county .... for free.

It was great, everyone I knew instantly had the internet access in their homes. Then 2 years went by, they changed their minds, you now have to pay $25 per year .... with time it became $4 a month, and then $29 a month. The access was the same, nothing changed except the price.

TV started out that way, then cable tv (and satellite tv) came along. And how much can you get for free now? Not much. Free tv will die out very soon in the future.


Open source is less about learning then it is taking a shot at big companies like Microsoft. Linux OS's have been around for a long while now, and how many actually use it? 1% to 2%.

Anyone can get it for free, with many apps equivalent to non-open source apps .... so why havent people gone down that route by now? Because the computer/electronics industry is driven by the youth that want the newest thing out. They dont care what it costs, they just want it because their friends have it.


Even if pay-per-computing were to come out, it would not die, simply because the youth will gravitate towards it to get the newest "cool" game or app only available on it. Not to mention educational institutions currently integrate their courseware and information on the net, and students must have access to it otherwise there would be no way for them to gain access to it.

If pay-per-computing offered options for educational institutions to give easy access to students, then the old way would die out quickly, and it would become the norm.

Just like when I was a student. We had to use MS Excel, or Adode Acrobat, etc. We had no choice. You had to buy it, because course teachers would not accept anything else. After 4 years of using it, you dont switch because you've used it for a while and know the ins and outs of it. Then employers expect you to use the same thing.

So you see how free things like open source never will be the future because everything is in place to make sure it never happens.

Dual-Core Pentium D @ 3.00GHz, 1.0 GB nVidia GeForce 8500 GT, 20" Wide screen LCD @ 10,000:1 Contrast, 4.0 GB DDR2 SDRAM, Triple-boot: 32-bit Windows XP MCE, 64-bit Vista, 64-bit Linux Ubuntu

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