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Geek Culture / How are bounty hunters legal?

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 02:04
I was watching TV the other day (usually a mistake), and I came across this show that is about bounty hunters tracking down people that failed to show up to court after they had been bonded. They explained that bounty hunters are able to cross state lines, use weapons, break and enter homes, and make an arrest. They are outside of the law.

So my question is, how is this even remotely legal??? Bounty Hunters are cool and all, but it's glorified vigilantism.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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RedneckRambo
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 02:06 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 02:07
Why would that not be legal? Someone breaks the law and refuses to go to court, therefore breaking the law again, odds are they won't show up if you just ask them nicely. Some use of force should be perfectly legal. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Mr Tank
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 02:08
I expect you need a license for it. It's bit like the police, but a privatised part doing contracted work. I expect if they break rules by using excessive force etc they get their licenses revoked.

Van B
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 02:10
Bounty hunters are closely monitored by police, they are really there to do the cruddy jobs that the police would rather not spend time on.
I wouldn't pay any mind to Dog and his Bounty Hunters, I'm sure the reality is a lot less feathery and extreme.


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puppyofkosh
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 02:23
Sorta like blackwater...
soapyfish
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 03:01 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 03:04
I doubt it is possible that Blackwater could be discussed here without the thread being locked shortly after.

From the Wikipedia page for bounty hunters, not in quote tags as I find it easier to read that way::

"Most bounty hunters are employed by a bail bondsman: the bounty hunter is paid about 10% of the bail the fugitive initially paid. If the fugitive eludes bail, the bondsman, not the bounty hunter, is responsible for the remainder of the fugitive's bail.

This is a way of ensuring his clients arrive at trial. In the United States, bounty hunters catch an estimated 31,500 bail jumpers per year, about 90% of people who jump bail.[1] Bounty hunters are also sometimes known as "bail enforcement agents" or "fugitive recovery agents," which are the preferred industry and polite terms, but in common speech (and language), they are still called "bounty hunters".

Bounty hunters are sometimes called "skiptracers," but this usage can be misleading. While bounty hunters are often skiptracers as well, skiptracing generally refers to the process of searching for an individual through less direct methods than active pursuit and apprehension, such as private investigators or debt collectors. Skiptracing can also refer to searches related to a civil matter and does not always imply criminal conduct on the part of the individual being traced.
In the United States of America, bounty hunters have varying levels of authority in their duties with regard to their targets depending on which states they operate in. As opined in Taylor v. Taintor, and barring restrictions applicable state by state, a bounty hunter can enter the fugitive's private property without a warrant in order to execute a re-arrest.

In some states, bounty hunters do not undergo any formal training, and are generally unlicensed, only requiring sanction from a bail bondsman to operate. In other states, however, they are held to varying standards of training and licensure. In California, bounty hunters must undergo a background check and complete various courses that satisfy the penal code 1299 requirements.[2] In most states they are prohibited from carrying firearms without proper permits. Louisiana requires bounty hunters to wear clothing identifying them as such.[3]

In Kentucky, bounty hunting is generally not allowed because the state does not have a system of bail bondsmen, and releases bailed suspects through the state's Pretrial Services division of the courts, thus there is no bondsman with the right to apprehend the fugitive. Generally, only fugitives who have fled bail on federal charges from another state where bounty hunting is legal are allowed to be hunted in Kentucky.[3] In Texas, every bounty hunter is required to be a peace officer, Level III (armed) security officer, or a private investigator.[4]

State legal requirements are often imposed on out-of-state bounty hunters, meaning a suspect could temporarily escape re-arrest by entering a state in which the bail agent has limited or no jurisdiction."

Also

"Laws in nearly all countries outside the U.S., which do not permit bounty hunting, would label the re-arrest of any fugitive "kidnapping" or the bail agent may incur the punishments of some other serious crime. While the United States Government generally allows the activities of bounty hunters in the United States, the government is not as tolerant of these activities when they cause problems with other sovereign nations."

The rest of the entry for those who are interested. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounty_hunter


tha_rami
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 03:31
America really should start nationalizing their laws to one, big, national law. This is kind of absurd, lol.


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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 07:23
Quote: "Why would that not be legal? Someone breaks the law and refuses to go to court, therefore breaking the law again, odds are they won't show up if you just ask them nicely. Some use of force should be perfectly legal. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that."


A. Where did I say they needed to be asked nicely?
B. Where did I take a position on non violence in my post?

Moving on.

I guess I'm still failing to understand why a case that started off in the hands of actual law enforcement officers ends up in the hands of someone who is outside of the justice system, but is called in by them to clean up their mess. I understand that they can only be contracted and that they can't just go off on their own. That pretty much means that the only reason they are vigilante's is because they are contracted, right?

Personally, I think Bounty Hunters are cool, minus this dog the bounty hunter guy I hear mentioned. But don't you think A LOT is left in the hands of someone who doesn't necessarily have someone looking over their shoulder? So much can go wrong, and their is a lot of responsibility in providing an escapee intact in every way.

I imagine some of you will say bounty hunters "do what the police can't be bothered to do." That sounds pretty bad though. That's like saying the President can't be bothered to secure his own embassy in another country, so he'll have another country speak for him instead. It's retarded.

I can compromise though in a manner that makes much more sense to me. And by the looks of it, some places are doing something similar. BH's must have formal training in law enforcement (peace officer, Level III (armed) security officer, or a private investigator.) and must have a title inside of the justice system (not outside of the law).

And... just throwing this out there, no one go nuts, but if they weren't to be included inside of the justice system (this is so important to me because it means they are under the state's responsibility), then they should not be able to make the arrest. They should only be able to track the fugitive and keep him locked down until police arrive.

That's pretty much my opinion as of now. It can be changed though. This is only a topic I've just recently begun to take a side on, and it's interesting.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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Slow Programmer
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 19:58
In a nutshell when a person accepts a loan from a bond company they sign paperwork giving the bonding company rights they would not have otherwise. If you run away you have signed a contract that gives them permission to pursue you and pretty much do anything it takes to get you back. If you don't want to be pursued by bounty hunters then don't use a bail bonding company to start with. Nothing illegal it is a private contract between two parties.
bitJericho
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 20:24 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 20:25
Quote: "America really should start nationalizing their laws to one, big, national law. This is kind of absurd, lol."


Not really. If someone lives in Washington DC and dictates all laws that Californians have to live by, that might not go over so well.

States have a right to make their own laws, based on what the citizens of that state want.

So say I love driving fast on the highway. I could move to Montanna and have fun there. However, if I hate that Montanna doesn't allow same-sex marriage, I could move to California (or was that outlawed now? It doesn't matter in this discussion) or whatever and get married to a dude.

Because not all people are the same, it's nice having some leeway and allow the States to decide what to impose on the people of that state.

There's also county laws and city laws. For example, I can't go out after midnight to a city-park. Should the Federal Government make that law too?

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Bozzy
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 11:36
I think it is coz the US is bloody huge

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RedneckRambo
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 20:00 Edited at: 10th Jan 2009 20:01
Quote: "or was that outlawed now?"

It was outlawed. Domestic partnerships are still legal and are basically the exact same thing here. And Jerico, that's a really good point lol.

Quote: "A. Where did I say they needed to be asked nicely?
B. Where did I take a position on non violence in my post?"

You fail to see my point. I was merely just saying why I think they should be legal.

AtomR
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Posted: 25th Mar 2009 22:33
Quote: "Not really. If someone lives in Washington DC and dictates all laws that Californians have to live by, that might not go over so well. "


Why? Aren't you all citizens of the same country and shouldn't you all have the same rights? Picking up the example before why is it that some americans can get same-sex marriage and others can't? A-list and b-list americans?

Quote: "In a nutshell when a person accepts a loan from a bond company they sign paperwork giving the bonding company rights they would not have otherwise."


They should not have that right, ever.

Quote: "If you run away you have signed a contract that gives them permission to pursue you and pretty much do anything it takes to get you back. If you don't want to be pursued by bounty hunters then don't use a bail bonding company to start with. Nothing illegal it is a private contract between two parties. "


If i lend you money and you don't pay me back do i have the right to pick up my guns and hunt you down? A gentleman's agreement is a contract aswell and if there are witnesses its also binding by law.
In my country i can sign a contract saying that i agree to some nasty work conditions. If later I find out those conditions aren't allowed by law then the contract was never valid to begin with.
The fact that the bonds companies have a legal right to hunt you down only shows how much some laws are there to defend companies interests and not the average joe's. I do realise that if said average joe signed the contract he shouldn't run away but still to be legal to be hunted down by "civilians" is too much imo. When the bonds company lend the money they, to the best of my knowledge, make risk acessments and do some background checks on who they are lending money to. So its a risk and if people run away then authorities should handle that.
I personally do not agree with Bounty Hunting.

Take care
AtomR
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Posted: 25th Mar 2009 22:39
Quote: "Why? Aren't you all citizens of the same country and shouldn't you all have the same rights? Picking up the example before why is it that some americans can get same-sex marriage and others can't? A-list and b-list americans?"


Because the US is huge and people live differently in different places. The idea of government governing governments is what this country was founded on. If you don't like the laws in one place, go somewhere else.

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MIDN90
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Posted: 26th Mar 2009 06:21
Quote: "Sorta like blackwater... "


How do you know about Blackwater?

And Blackwater is contracting of former military for usage in foreign countries... They don't work domestically. But in a sense, yes, you could say they are slightly like Blackwater.
ionstream
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Posted: 26th Mar 2009 07:09
Blackwater sounds like the A-Team to me. That's badass!

MIDN90
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Quote: "Blackwater sounds like the A-Team to me. That's badass!"


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puppyofkosh
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Posted: 26th Mar 2009 14:37
Quote: "And Blackwater is contracting of former military for usage in foreign countries... They don't work domestically."


They were in New Orleans...
Sid Sinister
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Posted: 26th Mar 2009 23:45
Fricking A, talk about resurrecting an old thread.

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MIDN90
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Posted: 27th Mar 2009 00:00
Quote: "They were in New Orleans... "


Blackwater is used to "eliminate" enemies that they are contracted for. I seriously doubt they were killing people in New Orleans.

BUT, on the contrary, Blackwater offers training for Law Enforcement and everything.

I guess I meant that when they do do Combat Oriented jobs, it's Overseas.
tha_rami
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Posted: 27th Mar 2009 01:44
Quote: "Because the US is huge and people live differently in different places. The idea of government governing governments is what this country was founded on. If you don't like the laws in one place, go somewhere else."

Which, basically, is friggin absurd. In a country, you should be able to have a general law everywhere, the same punishments and rules. That's what a COUNTRY is. Now, the USA is more like a whole bunch of little countries.


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MIDN90
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Posted: 27th Mar 2009 01:46 Edited at: 27th Mar 2009 02:01
Quote: "Which, basically, is friggin absurd. In a country, you should be able to have a general law everywhere, the same punishments and rules. That's what a COUNTRY is. Now, the USA is more like a whole bunch of little countries."


Say the same thing once you've lived here for 10 years, at a legal age, ie, over 18.

BTW - How is the US like a bunch of little countries? You need to be 18 to be legal all over, and 21 to drink...

Read This Rami:

Due to continuous problems the following subjects are also banned from discussion on all of our forums:
3.8 Debate about any form of pro or anti government sentiments, irrespective of which government

You're disrespecting my government here.
puppyofkosh
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Posted: 27th Mar 2009 01:47
Quote: "Blackwater is used to "eliminate" enemies that they are contracted for. I seriously doubt they were killing people in New Orleans."


I know what they are for, and of course they weren't sent to kill people in New Orleans. They were sent in after Katrina hit there. There work is

Quote: ""securing neighborhoods" and "confronting criminals." "




http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051010/scahill
MIDN90
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Posted: 27th Mar 2009 01:53
Quote: "http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051010/scahill"


Nice job.
tha_rami
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Posted: 27th Mar 2009 02:08
Quote: "You're disrespecting my government here. "

More like your lack of general laws. Every time I hear a story about someone being 'lucky' for murdering person A in state B, while in state C he would've been tortured to death with a feather, it makes me wonder why to even bother with laws. A country should be bound by common language, culture and law.


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MIDN90
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Posted: 27th Mar 2009 02:10
Quote: "More like your lack of general laws. Every time I hear a story about someone being 'lucky' for murdering person A in state B, while in state C he would've been tortured to death with a feather, it makes me wonder why to even bother with laws. A country should be bound by common language, culture and law."


I agree with that last part. In my opinion the common language should be English...

BUT, we're a melting pot, you cannot define Americans by one culture. We're diverse with Hispanic, Asian, Caucasian, African American, etc, cultures, that define what an American is; our diversity is who we are.
Sid Sinister
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Posted: 27th Mar 2009 02:11
Rami is over 18...

MIDN90, you must have forgotten 3rd grade social studies already.

How? Well, we got sick of King George, set sail on the Mayflower (and other ships), landed in America, spread out, created colonies, formed States, fought for our independence, and then created the federal government. And I have no idea what having to be 18 and 21 for things has to do with how.

Google if you don't understand why we have States and a Federal government.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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MIDN90
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Posted: 27th Mar 2009 02:13
The legal age in the USA is 18, meaning, it's not 16 in one state, and 19 in another.

Quote: "How? Well, we got sick of King George, set sail on the Mayflower (and other ships), landed in America, spread out, created colonies, formed States, fought for our independence, and then created the federal government."


What's that supposed to mean? I know we aren't a Monarchy.
Venge
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Posted: 27th Mar 2009 03:05
It's called Federalism... Local problems (drinking age, for example) are handled locally. Otherwise there would be no point in having individual states if all problems were handled by the federal government.

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MIDN90
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Posted: 27th Mar 2009 03:07
Plus Rami, It'd be too hard to keep the USA as one country equally, than 50 states...

Look at Mexico and Canada, they have states.
Herakles
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Posted: 27th Mar 2009 03:23
Here's my view on things:

Tracking people down and holding them without an arrest warrant is a violation of their rights, and doing so is therefore a crime.

Quote: "BUT, we're a melting pot, you cannot define Americans by one culture. We're diverse with Hispanic, Asian, Caucasian, African American, etc, cultures, that define what an American is; our diversity is who we are. "


That's not what makes us American. What makes us American is our belief in American moral ideals and willingness to adhere to them, regardless of ethnic background.

Quote: "Which, basically, is friggin absurd. In a country, you should be able to have a general law everywhere, the same punishments and rules. That's what a COUNTRY is. Now, the USA is more like a whole bunch of little countries."


The United States of America is supposed to be a bunch of states, each with their own laws agreed upon by all within them, united by a Federal government whose sole purpose is to defend the lives and rights of the people in them. Unfortunately, that's not the way it is anymore. The government is poking it's nose around too much in state affairs that don't have to do with the protection of people's rights or lives and are taking too much power. The result of this screwing around is this:

A: When a crisis happens, like 9/11, the government sends us into pointless wars in which more Americans are killed than in the crisis.

and B: We get into the economic crisis that we're in now.

Sorry, I know I'm a bit opinionated and long winded.
Sid Sinister
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Posted: 27th Mar 2009 06:25
Quote: "Plus Rami, It'd be too hard to keep the USA as one country equally, than 50 states..."


That's not even a legitimate point. I still think your missing the reasoning behind the whole state/federal thing.

Quote: "How is the US like a bunch of little countries?"


Quote: "How? Well, we got sick of King George, set sail on the Mayflower (and other ships), landed in America, spread out, created colonies, formed States, fought for our independence, and then created the federal government."


"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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MIDN90
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Posted: 27th Mar 2009 07:04
Quote: "That's not what makes us American. What makes us American is our belief in American moral ideals and willingness to adhere to them, regardless of ethnic background."


Morals and ideas? OMG, I am not evening opening up that can of worms. Despite all the ammo I'd have... I'd be breaking the AUP if I said what I can't say.
Sid Sinister
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Posted: 27th Mar 2009 13:44
Want to see what's in my box? You sure? Well you can't! Sorry. Stop begging me, I really mustn't show you! No means no.

I think it's funny when people talk about 'going there', but then don't there for various reasons. Interesting.

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Herakles
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Posted: 28th Mar 2009 03:16
Quote: "Morals and ideas? OMG, I am not evening opening up that can of worms. Despite all the ammo I'd have... I'd be breaking the AUP if I said what I can't say. "


My response to that would certainly break the AUP, so how about we just stop this line of discusion, ok? This whole thread is already on the verge of breaking them anyway, with all the sort of anti/pro government stuff.
flashing snall
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Posted: 28th Mar 2009 23:14
Quote: "Aren't you all citizens of the same country and shouldn't you all have the same rights?"

Exactly. The USA founding fathers were scared out of their minds of the government. Even while they drafted up all their documents, The Constitution and such, they were worried they were giving themselves too much power. Each colony already had its own system of government, and each colonies citizens felt more loyalty towards their colony than the entire County.
The first form of government in the USA was under the Articles of Confederation, which didnt give the national government any power, all the power was given to the states. People liked that, but it wasnt working at all, so they made a new draft called the Constition. There was so much debating over it though, because states didnt want to give up their power. So, our government grants certain powers to the state level, and withholds other power to the national government.
I didnt really make the point I wanted to there, but I have to run and go be friendly, sorry.


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Jeku
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Posted: 28th Mar 2009 23:22
Quote: "Look at Mexico and Canada, they have states. "


Drew G *cough* I mean MIDN90, please study the geography of your closest allies. Canada certainly does *not* have states.

bitJericho
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Posted: 28th Mar 2009 23:40
Well, Canada and Mexico have provinces... they're kinda like states...

AlexI
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Posted: 28th Mar 2009 23:40
Jeku
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Posted: 29th Mar 2009 03:03
Quote: "Well, Canada and Mexico have provinces... they're kinda like states..."


There are differences between states and provinces. For example the provinces in Canada are not primarily autonomous like in the US--- i.e. a murder is a federal offense and you will be tried the same way regardless of which province you did the crime. Quebec is an exception, however, but they're always the exception

Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 29th Mar 2009 22:14
Quote: "Tracking people down and holding them without an arrest warrant is a violation of their rights, and doing so is therefore a crime."


The thing here is the person is already "under arrest" and the bondsman puts up money to get them out with a stipulation that they return. If the bondsman pulls the bond it's "Go directly to jail do not pass go do not collect $200". Being out on bail does not mean you are no longer under arrest just not incarcirated.

Quote: "MIDN90, you must have forgotten 3rd grade social studies already.

How? Well, we got sick of King George, set sail on the Mayflower (and other ships), landed in America, spread out, created colonies, formed States, fought for our independence, and then created the federal government. And I have no idea what having to be 18 and 21 for things has to do with how."


eh before you go correcting people you should go back to that book. George was not king at the time of the pilgrims James was, they left after seperating with the Church of England and later a decree that forced all to follow the same religion as James.

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Herakles
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Posted: 30th Mar 2009 03:04
There's only two ways you can get out of being arrested: running away, and getting bailed out.

Running away gets you out of jail for a bit, but it's also evading arrest which is a crime and therefore it falls under the jurisdiction of the cops.

Getting bailed out is pretty much getting out of jail by bribing the system. It's a dumb practice, and sort of despicable, but that's the way it is.

As a semi great man once said: "The System Has Failed"
aluseus GOD
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Posted: 30th Mar 2009 03:20
I think that being a bounty hunter now adays is pointless. They have no more freedom.

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Don Malone
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Posted: 30th Mar 2009 06:00 Edited at: 30th Mar 2009 06:01
I am a little late to the party, but I wanted to post anyway.

The side note of the structure of the Government and rules for the USA seem chaotic; until you think about why the country was declared independent. Someone has already posted about the colonies not trusting the Government, and that is as should be. An all powerful body that answers to no one will try and do anything... (cough Microsoft...cough)

The Federal Government is like the string to tie the package (the states) together. The package in and of itself means very little without the contents. I am a believer that the Federal Government probably has to much power, or at least more than it should have, but that is not what this topic is about.

Based on this history, and mindset. The states should have the power to set their own regulation. If a state wants to allow actions that another state frowns on, it should be its place to do so. Up to the point that it would be problematic for the country as a whole. That means a state can not take actions that would be unconstitutional, such as taking away person B's rights because person A wanted to (make B a slave or forced to serve in another capacity as examples), but if Person A and person B both willingly wanted to cohabitate, engage in adult activities, or any other action that has no direct impact on rights of another person. They would be allowed to.

As for Bounty Hunting. I agree with what was written earlier about the Bail Bond as a contract. I am sure that the clause about being brought back in by a hunter is covered. The big thing is that even though the Bounty Hunters have some privileges above the law to bring a fugitive to justice. If the far exceed the law, and the limited privileges granted them as Bail bond agents. They are open to prosecution. They can not just start a running gun battle downtown, or shoot a suspect that is fleeing, and face no penalties or repercussion for that act. That is some thing that seems to have been missed in this.


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aluseus GOD
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Posted: 30th Mar 2009 06:29 Edited at: 30th Mar 2009 06:29
Be careful. If you post too much in one post, people like me with short attention spans won't be able to read it...

My eyes hurt. And AUS rocks. More people should try making quality 2d games.
bitJericho
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Posted: 30th Mar 2009 16:14
Quote: "Getting bailed out is pretty much getting out of jail by bribing the system. It's a dumb practice, and sort of despicable, but that's the way it is."


I don't think the courts keep your bail money as long as you honor your contract.

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