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Geek Culture / Best place to buy cheap macs.

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Jeku
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Posted: 9th Feb 2009 22:39
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Quote: "Just because Right Click is not secondary function by default does not mean you can't change it"


Actually, that is wrong. I have only ever plugged in a standard 2-button with scroll-wheel mouse in my Mac, and it has always worked by default. Zeke is mistaken there.


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David R
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Posted: 9th Feb 2009 23:08
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Quote: "
Actually, that is wrong. I have only ever plugged in a standard 2-button with scroll-wheel mouse in my Mac, and it has always worked by default. Zeke is mistaken there."


I was referring to the Mighty Mouse/the mouse shipping with the Mac, but yeah, fair enough - other mice will auto-configure to right click if deemed appropriate, I didn't know that actually.


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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 10th Feb 2009 01:02
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Jeku - The ugly 2006 imac ones are defualt on one button, but the newer ones do come with two button defualts.

Quote: "it's only an improvement because you're used to it on the platform you're using now."


I'm not judging by that, I'm seeing it as logic. Why, why why use two hands for a very common task when you can easily use a different finger on the same hand that's controlling the mouse? It just illogical, is what I'm saying.

Quote: "If the user can't afford to get a decent mouse then they shouldn't be able to afford a mac."


I was directing it at this:

Quote: "Hence the OS adopted ways for a secondary function without dependence on hardware."


By saying they should focus on the hardware that is most useful and the ones they are shipping rather than the ones people are "used to".

Personally I like using a four-button mouse the best, but that is a bit extreme by most standards.


As I announced in a previous thread, I am horribly biased towards macs. Just letting you know that no matter how much logic you think you have, my mind will constantly tell me it is an inferior OS and computer. I've worked on them for a while already, and that is what I use as evidence backup. I would be totally wrong if I was bashing them without ever using them before.

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David R
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Posted: 10th Feb 2009 17:49
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Quote: "Just letting you know that no matter how much logic you think you have, my mind will constantly tell me it is an inferior OS and computer. I've worked on them for a while already, and that is what I use as evidence backup."


That's pretty much an admission that all your points are invalid. Good to know.


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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 10th Feb 2009 21:36
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Quote: "That's pretty much an admission that all your points are invalid. Good to know."


I don't see how that works in your head.

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 02:10
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Quote: "
Quote: "
why would you even want a mac when you can get a cheap PC thats 10 times better than a mac?"

Try using one some time
"


try using a mac or a PC? i had experience with a mac and it was not good.

Maybe its just me but i like powerful computers
I have a clevo laptop with a 512mb 8800m GTX that i bought for $2000, a MACBOOK PRO with a 9600m GT is like $3000 (9600m GT is the same as an 8600m GT and is a mediocre graphics card.

for a minimum of $2500 you can get a D901C with dual SLI 9800m GTX with each card having 1 gb of memory. You cant beat that deal with a mac.

the only thing about them, is i think Macbooks are well constructed but i cant say as i never taken one apart.

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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Alucard94
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 07:18
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Quote: "a MACBOOK PRO with a 9600m GT is like $3000 (9600m GT is the same as an 8600m GT and is a mediocre graphics card.
"

So that's why I got mine for $1,700 (Approximately, seeing as I live in Sweden I didn't use dollars) then?
Macs are generally more expensive than Windows based computers, deal with it. In my opinion they're worth it.


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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 11:48
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NOOOooooo.... I thought this argument was over. But my brain tells me to chime in.

Quote: "In my opinion they're worth it."


WHY?
I can't find one reason why I would want a mac instead of a pc, even if they were priced the same.

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SamHH
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 15:34
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Macs are great for some things and a pain for other things, the same is true with PCs. If you have a smaller budget or you want to get the biggest bang for your buck going with a mac is idiocy. Imovie is a big selling point for macs, but really imovie is only as good as windows movie maker. Macs aren't designed for gaming, they are designed to be pretty and novice use friendly, this gets to be a pain in the ass when you are trying to be a pro with a mac, theconvenient finder doesn't save you any time. I like macs fine, editing in final cut is nice, but I don't mind premiere either, so really t just comes down to cost for me, that coupled with a bunch of compatibility issues I run into all the time I prefer windows.


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David R
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 17:33 Edited at: 12th Feb 2009 17:46
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Quote: "NOOOooooo.... I thought this argument was over. But my brain tells me to chime in.
"


It is over - you've already admitted you have an illogical bias against Macs that won't be swayed by reason, so shut up already (What's the point in asking questions if you have no intention of altering your views at all?)

Quote: "Macs aren't designed for gaming, they are designed to be pretty and novice use friendly, this gets to be a pain in the ass when you are trying to be a pro with a mac, theconvenient finder doesn't save you any time"


Macs aren't designed for gaming? Well last time I looked, nor were PCs. Both of them can play games - neither of them were explicitly invented or built with gaming in mind. So stop using this stupid weasel phrase

Secondly, what's wrong with the finder? I've been working with build environments and swapping VMs around, and it works fine. The lack of an explicit 'Up' button is slightly annoying, but Cmd+Up does the same. Please explain how the Finder is inconvenient, exactly.

Quote: "bunch of compatibility issues"


Please make the differentiation: Not being able to run Windows applications is not a compatibility issue. Compatibility is implying some kind of standard applied across the OS elsewhere: Win32 EXEs are not some kind of standard. I can't natively execute a bunch of old UNIX apps on Windows - I certainly do not call it a 'compatibility issue' - Windows just doesn't run them, in the same way OS X doesn't run Windows apps.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 17:56
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I've noticed that Macs seem to be better with one processor hungry process than with lots of little ones; everything from window z-order being grouped by application to the dock freezing for 5-10 seconds when an application is busy to the toolbar being stuck to the top of the first screen. (seriously, whose idea was that?) They don't seem to bog down as much as Windows when they run out of RAM and start delving into the pagefile. This makes them better gaming machines in my view. They really seem to struggle with 5-10 lightweight applications open though and the interface can get infuriating if you're trying to switch between them quick. You can't select a busy window. Go on, try it. You just can't.

Windows, on the other hand, seems to be better at doing lots of little things at once. I can have Firefox with five tabs, Code::Blocks, Paint Shop Pro, SwishMAX, several Pidgin conversations going at once on this 630mHz Celeron with 512Mb of RAM. If something goes wrong with a program, the taskbar doesn't freeze until it is declared crashed. I can order my windows how I want.

The same game on the same hardware (using Bootcamp on the iMac) runs slightly smoother on Mac OS X from my experience. Therefore I'd declare Mac OS X slightly better for gaming if only someone'd release some damned games for it!

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David R
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 18:13 Edited at: 12th Feb 2009 18:16
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Quote: "They really seem to struggle with 5-10 lightweight applications open though and the interface can get infuriating if you're trying to switch between them quick. You can't select a busy window. Go on, try it. You just can't."


What? What the hell Mac are you using? I regularly run pretty much every app on my dock and it runs smooth as silk.

Struggling, yeah right

Also, the busy window behaviour varies entirely on application - the same as Windows. Some apps keep an extra thread when the other is busy, to receive UI messages, some don't. So that's in no way a 'fact'


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 18:17
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I can bring a busy window to the foreground in Windows. Even one that's stuck in an endless loop. Importing a Photoshop image from a USB drive is the best way to cause the window to be unselectable under Mac OS X. It will not be selectable unless you alt-tab to the application.

I'm using a five month old aluminium bodied Core 2 Duo iMac with 4Gb of RAM.

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David R
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 18:30
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Quote: "I can bring a busy window to the foreground in Windows. Even one that's stuck in an endless loop"


You can in OS X - as I already said, the behaviour depends upon the application. Some OS X apps do dumb things with their dock icons (e.g. VMWare doing a stupid glow effect) and the way they respond to being activated. It's a completely variable thing based upon application, and has nothing what-so-ever to do with the OS


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 18:35
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Out of interest, why does the program have to respond to be brought into focus? I'm the user. I should be in control.

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Mr Z
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 18:51 Edited at: 12th Feb 2009 18:51
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Hmmmm, that is curious. Windows is in my experience quite bad when it comes to how it handles windows that hang... not that OSX is any better, I have not been able to make an app hang on OSX ever (but then again I only used it in school for webdesign and such things, never for any heavy work, so I cannot say I am that experienced with it), so I cannot comment on if it is or not. Guess all OSs has their quirks, lol.

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SamHH
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 21:13
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Quote: "Macs aren't designed for gaming? Well last time I looked, nor were PCs."

LOL, what in the world are you talking about?
http://gaming-pc-review.toptenreviews.com/
10 high rated gaming PCs, where's the mac?
Quote: "Please make the differentiation: Not being able to run Windows applications is not a compatibility issue. Compatibility is implying some kind of standard applied across the OS elsewhere: Win32 EXEs are not some kind of standard. I can't natively execute a bunch of old UNIX apps on Windows - I certainly do not call it a 'compatibility issue' - Windows just doesn't run them, in the same way OS X doesn't run Windows apps."

I'm talking about hardware, Mac formatted drives don't work with windows, windows formatted drives work with macs though.


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David R
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 21:28 Edited at: 12th Feb 2009 21:29
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Quote: "LOL, what in the world are you talking about?
http://gaming-pc-review.toptenreviews.com/
10 high rated gaming PCs, where's the mac? "


The key word of what you said was designed. PCs were not designed exclusively to play games, and nor were Macs, hence my point. Saying "Macs aren't designed to play games" is a weasel phrase that means nothing.

Quote: "I'm talking about hardware, Mac formatted drives don't work with windows, windows formatted drives work with macs though.
"


There have been tools out there to read from HFS partitions on Windows for years. Try googling it.


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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 21:59 Edited at: 12th Feb 2009 22:01
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Seems to me most people in this thread who have their opinions about Mac don't have one or haven't used one since the 90s

What I don't understand is what the big deal about Finder is? I click on it just like I would click on My Computer in Windows, and it has its folders and files. While nobody has explicitly said it's "better" than how Windows handles file management, I get the feeling that people have claimed this at one point or another. I could be wrong, and maybe there's some awesome feature I'm not finding?

EDIT:

I'm thinking people like how there's a single folder called Applications where there's single icons for all your programs. That is cool actually. I like how I can delete a program just by deleting its icon. No registry and uninstaller to worry about


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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 22:13 Edited at: 12th Feb 2009 22:18
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Jeku - Yeah, I use CCleaner to uninstall my stuff, makes it really easy.
Quote: "
It is over - you've already admitted you have an illogical bias against Macs that won't be swayed by reason, so shut up already (What's the point in asking questions if you have no intention of altering your views at all?)"


I didn't say it was illogical.

Quote: "
The key word of what you said was designed. PCs were not designed exclusively to play games, and nor were Macs, hence my point. Saying "Macs aren't designed to play games" is a weasel phrase that means nothing."


Macs are good for artwork is another meaningless weasel phrase, just to point it out.

And you didn't mention what type of PC.
There are a ton of types of PC's, all designed for different purpose. Gaming PC's are designed for gaming.
Sure you could install OSX on one, but it wouldn't be a mac then. I'm talking about hardware, not software here.
Installing windows on a mac doesn't make it a pc either.

Macs are differentiate very little, taking the individuality out of computing.


Quote: "Seems to me most people in this thread who have their opinions about Mac don't have one or haven't used one since the 90s "


Aha! I don't apply! (to the second part)

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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 22:25
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Quote: "Sure you could install OSX on one, but it wouldn't be a mac then. I'm talking about hardware, not software here."


Macs run on Intel processors now


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Alucard94
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 22:51
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Quote: "Installing windows on a mac doesn't make it a pc either."

Obviously not, a Mac is obviously not a personal computer? Who'd use it for that?

Quote: "Macs are good for artwork is another meaningless weasel phrase, just to point it out."

No? Macs are generally good for artwork, having good software for it and good hardware for that software. The keyword was "designed", try re-reading.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 22:54
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Quote: "No? Macs are generally good for artwork, having good software for it and good hardware for that software. The keyword was "designed", try re-reading."


What's different from mac hardware vs pc hardware?

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 22:55
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The keyboard has a straight edge I suppose.

What good is knowledge without a degree of understanding?
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Alucard94
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 23:01
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Quote: "What's different from mac hardware vs pc hardware?"

When did I say there was a difference?


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David R
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 23:07
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Quote: "I didn't say it was illogical."


The fact you said no logic would remove the bias implies that it is an illogical bias


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bitJericho
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Posted: 12th Feb 2009 23:47
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Quote: "No? Macs are generally good for artwork, having good software for it and good hardware for that software. The keyword was "designed", try re-reading."


You're implying there's no good software/hardware for PCs.

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draknir_
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Posted: 13th Feb 2009 00:03
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Top Nine Reasons the Apple Dock Still Sucks:
http://www.asktog.com/columns/044top10docksucks.html

I'm really worried that MS is following in these horrible horrible footsteps with the oversized windows 7 taskbar.
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David R
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Posted: 13th Feb 2009 00:07
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Half of those supposed dock problems are either nonsenscial or are just plain non-issues. For instance, what's wrong with having the trash can in the corner? Am I missing something here?


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 13th Feb 2009 00:25
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Interesting thing that happened to me the other day is that I went to drag some files into a folder on the dock and the dock had frozen without me realising it. For some reason, the printers all have their icons on the dock that appear when you print something. I let go over the folder, then the dock unfroze and everything shifted up about 60px. All of it went into the printer and I came out of it £4 out of pocket.

I have magnification off.

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David R
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Posted: 13th Feb 2009 00:32
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I haven't had the dock freeze on me yet (well, besides when I manage to deadlock Time Machine by screwing the portable drive up) so I can't say I know of this issue. My Mac is only about a month old, but so far I haven't had any performance degradation at all.


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draknir_
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Posted: 13th Feb 2009 00:38
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Quote: "Half of those supposed dock problems are either nonsenscial or are just plain non-issues. For instance, what's wrong with having the trash can in the corner? Am I missing something here?"


Fitt's law has shown that the corners and edges of a computer screen are the easiest/fastest places a user can accurately position their mouse.
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Phaelax
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Posted: 13th Feb 2009 00:46
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Quote: " it's not like Apple uses magic motherboards"

I believe the board in my powerbook is Foxconn.

Quote: "they are designed to be pretty and novice use friendly"

And that's why Apple's interfaces are better than Windows (not including file explorer), they're simple and very easy to use/figure out immediately.

Quote: "What? What the hell Mac are you using? I regularly run pretty much every app on my dock and it runs smooth as silk."

Same here, and I have a 1.67GHz G4 with 1GB ram.


From a hardware point of view, this is little to no difference between Mac and PC anymore. I'm no fanboy of either, but I like both. And I'll agree Apple likes to blow their "innovative" ideas out of proportion sometimes, such as "From one solid piece of aluminum comes a MacBook Pro". They advertise that like its the greatest thing since sliced bread. Some people argue about the new battery, about how you can't remove it anymore. It may have drawbacks, but the benefits of having a significantly longer lasting battery and thinner laptop out-way those drawbacks in my opinion.

@Draknir,
I can agree with most of those Dock comments, except the trashcan. Seriously, who deletes stuff by dragging it to the can or recycle bin? Thats too slow and inefficient, which is why I'm sure everyone probably just hits the delete key.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 13th Feb 2009 00:52
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Oh, and for anyone interested in the Mac-clones (as i saw a link to psystar on here), here's an article worth reading. Basically, Psystar has won the latest round with Apple last week.http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/02/09/1450235


Also, I just read on slashdot today that Dell will be shipping dual boot Windows/Linux laptops. Personally, I think that's the best idea I've heard awhile since Vista appeared. (That and that MS will offer free Win7 upgrades to current vista owners)

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Jeku
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Posted: 13th Feb 2009 01:18
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Quote: "And that's why Apple's interfaces are better than Windows (not including file explorer), they're simple and very easy to use/figure out immediately."


That has to be depending on what you learn first. I have used Windows since 3.11 and tried OSX for the first time last year when I bought my Mac Mini, and the interface still gets under my skin, even though it's supposed to be "better".


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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 13th Feb 2009 03:19
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For the record, I like the dock. I would NEVER use it as a taskbar to store minimized windows, but I use mine (on a pc) to launch programs.

Quote: "No? Macs are generally good for artwork, having good software for it and good hardware for that software. The keyword was "designed", try re-reading.
"


How so? The same software is available for a pc.

Quote: "
Macs run on Intel processors now"


Yes, I'm aware. But that doesn't do anything at all to my previous point.

Regardless of what processor they run on, they still have the same cases with the same monitors and the same lack of customization.

Quote: "That has to be depending on what you learn first. I have used Windows since 3.11 and tried OSX for the first time last year when I bought my Mac Mini, and the interface still gets under my skin, even though it's supposed to be "better". "


Hrm. That's odd - I found the mac interface easier. Which re-enforces the point that is commonly made that macs are novice-oriented. But that's a personal preference thing.

Quote: "Also, I just read on slashdot today that Dell will be shipping dual boot Windows/Linux laptops."


I don't like dell as much anymore - at first after seeing their linux-only computers I was happy, then sad when I realized they cost more than the windows ones. Microsoft pays them to distribute windows, so it drives up the price and hence costs more, which is just stupid. You pay for it either way. Grr.


David R - Ah, I see your point now. I guess you could call it illogical, but I base my arguments off of my own logic. I'm not one of those "macs are stupid because they just are" people.

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Not_Maindric
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Posted: 13th Feb 2009 04:11
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I use Macs at school and I use Windows at home, and I prefer windows. (I use Windows XP, not Vista, so I am not reviewing that, I will skip straight to Windows 7.)

I do not like the Mac interface, it is just not enjoyable to me. I find the lack of customization on most Macs disturbing. I have had them freeze up on me a few times (Used them at school for over 3 years.). I do not remember what I was doing, but it cost a lot of my class work. They do have good graphics support, but that is my favorite thing about Macs, not much else.

I have customized the components of almost all the computers that have came into this household (Including replacing the CPU, adding Ram, adding cards and drives and graphics card and then some.) and I enjoy it. Almost all the Mac programs are compatible with Windows computer. Also, Windows is the primary gaming platform, and I am a gamer. I have almost never had windows freeze on me (only on my older computer which died a two years ago, and was made eight years ago.).

All in all, I prefer Windows. I hold nothing against Macs, but they just annoy me personally. Never used Linux, so I cannot say much about it.

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draknir_
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Posted: 13th Feb 2009 09:28
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Quote: "Seriously, who deletes stuff by dragging it to the can or recycle bin? "


I do. I download all my files to my desktop, so that when I'm done with temporary things like videos & games I can drag select and drag to the trash can, and I assure you I'm not slow at it. The top left corner is so ridiculously easy to reach, all you have to do is throw (not literally) your mouse up and left.

I like using a mouse only interface, and windows does it better than mac IMO.
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Jeku
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Posted: 13th Feb 2009 18:34
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I have a habit of shift-deleting in Windows which has bitten me in the butt more than once.


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Alucard94
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden.
Posted: 13th Feb 2009 19:45 Edited at: 13th Feb 2009 19:46
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Quote: "You're implying there's no good software/hardware for PCs.
"

No? I never said that, and certainly didn't try to imply it. The text might have made the words sound wrong.

Quote: "How so? The same software is available for a pc."


Provide a quote when I said that it didn't.


Alucard94, the member of the future of the past.
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bitJericho
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Location: United States
Posted: 13th Feb 2009 19:52
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Quote: "Macs are generally good for artwork, having good software for it and good hardware for that software."


You could add "... in contrast to PCs". If this was not your intention... then... you're saying macs can do what PCs can do in terms of art? I'm not doubting that at all. I can do it on a PC for a whole lot cheaper.

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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 13th Feb 2009 21:55
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Jerico2day pretty much just said what I was about to say.

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dab
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Posted: 14th Feb 2009 01:10
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Quote: "I have a habit of shift-deleting in Windows which has bitten me in the butt more than once"


I hear you on that one. -.- So many accidental shift-deletes.

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