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Work in Progress / Grand Theft Retro

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Gingerkid Jack
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Posted: 21st Apr 2009 19:29
looking very good. Keep it up!

TheCleverGuyz
Bizar Guy
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Posted: 21st Apr 2009 21:17
looks very interesting, I'm quite excited about this. Just remember to keep it so you can finish!!

Dragon Knight
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Posted: 21st Apr 2009 23:17
Butter fingers, i'm glad you're still working on this project keep it up, a long journey awaits you but just keep taking it one step at a time >.> mystic words of the dragons lol...

heyufool1
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 00:07
That looks awesome! Love the style, be sure. But, make sure to have smooth animations to pull it all together. Looking great so far though!

Caleb1994
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 22:38 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2009 22:59
looks great!

New Site! Check it out \/
feiting shadow
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 07:52
I am unsure how I missed this earlier... but you have by far the best thing I've ever seen made with DBPro, and not only that, you're adding stuff to it to make it more.

AND... you're doing the artwork and the coding, along with keeping the quality relatively up (nothing in there looks like it was done in less than 20 min). Kudos! Van B's probably gonna newsletter this, and if not, I vote it is!

Also that's an awesome thing to have on your history... has microsoft scouted you, or anyone else? If not, they're missing out... (not that you'd want all your work to be owned, but it pays good )

Signed
------
Butter fingers
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 12:01 Edited at: 24th Apr 2009 12:04
wow! I didn't expect this much feedback! I appreciate it!

Bizar guy,

No fear mate, this one is getting done. THe gameplay dynamics are much simpler than anything else I've done! I've actually created a design document and workflow, so I know this is managable, and not some epic that will never get done.

heyufool1

Lol, thanks man! Have no fear the animations are super smooth. Infact the majorety of animation is done through the engine procedurally. So things like the Mech walk cycle are all done through code, no keyframing or anything. This actually seems alot faster than using animations and affords me much more control over the way characters move in the game.

feiting shadow

LOL, praise indeed, thankyou. I don't think Microsoft are interested, but we have meetings with Square Enix and Nintendo coming up in the next few months over the brain stuff, so fingers crossed on that one!

Anyway, I can't record a video at the moment because I simply don't have time, but I've put together some images of the units so far. Because of creating the black shade around the edge they have to be rediculously low poly, but I think it looks cool. Makes a nice change from all that crazy normal mapping and specular shading we see everywhere at the moment!



I want robotic legs.
Plotinus
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 16:35
This looks fantastic and I love the art style. The thick black outlines are excellent, and the revamped game idea seems to match the art style better than the original game concept (although that still looked fun). The low-poly "feature" definitely isn't a problem.

The one single thing I don't like the look of is the cuboid limbs on the soldier - I think cylindrical ones would blend in better - but perhaps this isn't as achievable.

Amazing to hear that you're talking to Nintendo. Something like this would be great on the Wii!
Caleb1994
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 18:03
Quote: "LOL, praise indeed, thankyou. I don't think Microsoft are interested, but we have meetings with Square Enix and Nintendo coming up in the next few months over the brain stuff, so fingers crossed on that one!"



SWEET i agree with the post above me! lol

New Site! Check it out \/
Butter fingers
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 19:18
Plotinus, thanks dude, that was really encouraging. I realise the characters look a little ropey close up because of their square-ness. I'm just very concerned about overall polycounts.

At the moment there are up to 20 soldiers in my test level, but in the final game there is going to be a cache of 100 or so civilians that spawn around the player location to create the vibe of a "population", in levels with zombies and aliens, this NPC count will obviously be higher again. I did a smoothed cylindrical version of the human, and although it is smoother
A) It almost doubles the polycount for the characters
B) From the game camera position it isn't too noticable a difference.

I very much appreciate the input, it's a useful comment. I think perhaps I will have 2 versions of the mesh, one box and one cylinder, and depending on PC spec etc it can load one or the other?

If you look at the first set of gameplay screenshots on this page, you'll see that the soldiers are actually way tiny!

Anywy, I'll do some experiments with low poly rounded meshes and post them up for comparison!

I want robotic legs.
Plotinus
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 21:00
Quote: "I very much appreciate the input, it's a useful comment. I think perhaps I will have 2 versions of the mesh, one box and one cylinder, and depending on PC spec etc it can load one or the other?"


It's always an option, so worth keeping in mind. But I hadn't thought about how small the figures are in-game, so perhaps it doesn't matter much. I do agree that performance is obviously going to be your top priority here. If they're smoothly animated they'll look good no matter what.

Baddie ideas: mole men. Triffids. Super-villains.
Butter fingers
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Posted: 25th Apr 2009 22:31 Edited at: 25th Apr 2009 23:31
Triffids is [rude word here]-ing genius idea. They are definately getting made. Maybe as a little petshop of horrors style creature like a mutant venus fly trap?!...

And super villains will also definately get done. I love the idea of 1 enemy with loads of health destroying all those tanks and whatnot! I was actually going to have a character type called "generic player", the player can't play as him, but he behaves like a standard action game hero, carries loads of (invisible until used) guns, re-spawns, has loads of health etc, catch phrases etc...

will post some updates in a little bit. I've got to do a new targeting system that can handle the (yes exciting) destructable buildings!

****************EDIT****************

OK, a little input please! I have the NPCs currently setup using box collision. It's very fast to load, and doesn't knock the framerate too much. THe thing is, it's not very accurate. For example, on the helicopters the box is too big, meaning bullets that hit the box don't neccessarily hit the mesh itself. Now, my question is, is that too inaccurate? would that get annoying, or doesn't it matter?
answers on a stamped self-address envelope to... attached screenshot shows current collision boxes.

I want robotic legs.
Roxas
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Posted: 26th Apr 2009 01:20
You can use multiple boxes to go around this

darimc
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Posted: 26th Apr 2009 01:52
I would say use multiple boxes.

bobbel
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Posted: 26th Apr 2009 09:19
looks really cool! i look forward playing it!


The cake is a LIE!
Xfire = Fotogames
Butter fingers
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Posted: 26th Apr 2009 17:15
Hey guys, thanks for the input with the collision system. I'm actually creating the collision data in a separate file and then loading it onto character before runtime. This means that more complex entities like the Helicopter can have near-polygon collision and not kill the load time.

anyway, heres my new issue. The civilians are killing my FPS. The only difference in their AI code and say a tank is animation. It seems to me that the "loop object" command is pretty CPU intensive?! I'm calling the loop object command when the character is loaded, after which the command is never called during my loop, but it seems that looping more than 10 meshes starts to affect performance. Is this just the way it is? Other than using something like enhanced anim is there a way to increase the performance of animation commands?

I want robotic legs.
Mazz426
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Posted: 26th Apr 2009 17:46
nice to hear that its being resolved, and if youre looking for enemy idea the why not a Godzilla like monster and when he appears you could have someone with a funny voice shout the creatures name... or is that to strange

gamer for life
Gunslinger
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Posted: 26th Apr 2009 19:00
Best Project i've ever seen!
Want to play, now!

ANother idea for a enemy. Hippies! Or Gremlins.
I mean small, fast, monsters. Without Range weapons or vehicles.
Dr Manette
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Posted: 26th Apr 2009 22:16
I would say zombies also fit in that category! Another cool idea would be more natural disasters; floods, tornadoes, volcanoes, hurricanes, thunder storms, meteor, and maybe a tsunami. Very cool project, Butter fingers!

Mr Z
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Posted: 27th Apr 2009 00:05
Nice.

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
Airslide
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Posted: 27th Apr 2009 03:50
Butters - have you considered instancing the civilians? I'm not sure if that will help or not though, as you may loose some functionality by doing that. Is the performance better when you remove the loop object command?

James H
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Posted: 27th Apr 2009 06:04 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 06:06
Have a look for fastbone.fx - takes work off cpu and puts on gpu, I think its in one of the newsletters. Also you should seriously consider enhanced animation. Not only do you get smooth transitions between animations, but you can extract animations from animations in a model(from any limb) and save it in files. This will reduce the frames required in a model file to zero(which can also be saved) and you can apply the same animations to other models that have the same number of limbs. All this cutting down on resources.

Edit: btw this looks great - is it completely flat though?
Azunaki
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Posted: 27th Apr 2009 07:46
the only thing i don't like is the soldiers body shape. its too square.
Butter fingers
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Posted: 27th Apr 2009 11:49
Airslide,

If I put the civilians in with no Loop command (everything else the same), then I'm getting around 75-80FPS, with Loop turned on it's nearer to 45. Literally the loop command is the ony thing I change.
I can't really instance them, because I need more functionality than the INSTANCE command will allow me.

I've changed the way they work no (as the vid I'm about to post will show), so that there are only 30 civilians and the engine will re-use the ones that are out of view/dead. It creates a kind of infinite civilian situation!

James H
I'd heard about the fastbone thing. I will definately look into it. That might well be the solution I've been looking for, so thank you for that. I'll have a gander at it today and post my results later.
Enhanced animation is definately getting used. I hadn't realise I could just load 1 animation file and apply it to all the characters. THat'll save alot of resources/time! yummy. *hugs you*
Quote: "Edit: btw this looks great - is it completely flat though? "
LOL, thanks and no, it's fully 3D!!

Azunaki,

Point taken dude, this was mentioned above. I'll be creating a cylindrical version too, and depending on the power of the PC that's playing the game it'll pick one or the other. I have to say that although it's noticeable here in the screens, when the game is actually in play the "squareness" is less visible.

Anyway, here are some updates, and the first new videos...!

I want robotic legs.
Butter fingers
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Posted: 27th Apr 2009 11:53 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 11:54
First Video Update - Infinite Pedestrians!

Ok, so here's one of the new developments.
THe engine dynamically controls the position of civilians during runtime. As a civilian dies, or moves too far out of shot, they are re-spawned infront of the camera, meaning that there are always loads of running screaming people on the screen!

Right now it's quite basic. THere is noticable popup as some of the peds appear, although this will be smoothed in future. Also need to add Females and children into the mix, otherwise the city looks like a total sausage fest!



I want robotic legs.
Butter fingers
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Posted: 27th Apr 2009 11:57 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 11:58
Other Video UPdate!

Lighting Test.

This is very early work!! basically the idea is to have a sun object and lens flare, although I want the lens flare to look like a cartoon, rather than a classic, realistic lens flare, so the sun has rays! Also, staring directly at the sun causes the level ambience to head towards a white out!

Right now, the media is just kinda placemarkers, but the effect is kind of cool.

WHen the sun is obscured by an object the flare disappears! Although because of too-big collision boxes, right now it's not quite right!!



I want robotic legs.
Roxas
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Posted: 27th Apr 2009 16:02 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 16:03
Do you still have the Animation speed issue? Loop object command is really slower than doing Set object frame manually Just a tip.
You can also find some custom made animation libaries using set object frame by using the search box. In example keywords Interpolating animation or something..
Fastbone.fx should also work with set object frame command so dont worry, and you should add support to disable it too because fastbone shaders dont work in older cards.

Anyways good stuff!

Airslide
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Posted: 27th Apr 2009 17:05
It's actually nice to know that loop object (and possibly play object?) are slow, because now I now where I can optimize my engine a bit. Glad to see you got it working, infact I think you benefited from having a limited number at any one time, it is easier on the cpu AI wise and now you don't have to worry about running out

James H
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Posted: 27th Apr 2009 17:10
Quote: "LOL, thanks and no, it's fully 3D!!"

Haha, I knew it was fully 3D lol! What I meant was are there any hills/gradients? Also what size is the landscape/map? Just wondering of course, looks good regardless. If you choose not to go the enhanced animation route then what Roxas just said is best. Dunno why I never mentioned that - maybe I love enhanced animation too much! Nice vids but the music in the first one wrecks my head!
Mazz426
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Posted: 27th Apr 2009 18:16
just saw your new video and it was awsome, and i loved the music very... we love katamari

gamer for life
Roxas
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Posted: 28th Apr 2009 01:10
Quote: "Haha, I knew it was fully 3D lol! What I meant was are there any hills/gradients? Also what size is the landscape/map? Just wondering of course, looks good regardless. If you choose not to go the enhanced animation route then what Roxas just said is best. Dunno why I never mentioned that - maybe I love enhanced animation too much! Nice vids but the music in the first one wrecks my head!"


Enhanced animation has "animation instancing", so its defiantly faster. If its in your budget range then get it!

darimc
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Posted: 28th Apr 2009 04:25
I say get some nice, over-exaggerated cartoon blood in there. Looks great, one of the best games I have seen here.

Plotinus
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Posted: 28th Apr 2009 11:30
The videos look really good. The screaming pedestrians are great fun (even though they seem to run towards the monsters - but I suppose they're panicked) and the flare effect definitely has potential. I had thought, from looking at the still pictures, that the skyscrapers in the distance were a funky 2D backdrop, so it's really impressive to see the camera moving into them and find that they are part of the 3D world. You definitely have a very workable engine running here. I love the spinning helicopter and the animations in general.

One thing I'm not sure about is the billboard explosion/smoke effects. They look good, but everything else in the game is so solid-looking they don't mesh quite so well. I was wondering if it would be feasible to use simple blobby models for these, much like the trees, only maybe even simpler? This is just a thought, so don't worry if not.

Another monster idea: giant ants. Might be hard to model and animate convincingly though.
Butter fingers
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Posted: 28th Apr 2009 11:56 Edited at: 28th Apr 2009 11:57
Quote: "Enhanced animation has "animation instancing", so its defiantly faster. If its in your budget range then get it!"

LOL, I've had Enhanced Anim for ages, just never put it to use, because the command functions are so Long and scared me. Anyway, I'm making good use of it, replacing all the current anim commands as we speak... well, not as we speak but soon!
Quote: "
I say get some nice, over-exaggerated cartoon blood in there. Looks great, one of the best games I have seen here."

Yeah, that's definately getting done. It's already coded into the engine (check the earlier posts), I just need to add it to the new functions.

Plotinus:
Quote: "The screaming pedestrians are great fun (even though they seem to run towards the monsters - but I suppose they're panicked) "

Yeah, what a bunch of retards! It was because they shared movement AI with the soldeirs. I've flipped it now, so that they do infact run away. Looked a bit silly having 50 people swarming towards a monster!

The skyscrapers are actually a major headache for me at the moment. I need them to take damage and collapse, but since theyre instanced I'm having to upgrade the Sparky collision on them to 2.5 so that I can add collision. All good. I've just got to work out how to make them destry convincingly. That's actually the next thing on the to do list.
Quote: "
I love the spinning helicopter and the animations in general."

Thanks. It's infact not an animation but done procedurally through limb rotating. There are no animations on the helis. The blades rotate via limbs, as does the crash spin!

Interesting you mentioned the explosions. I have the same feeling about their flatness. I'm thinking I have to use plains for the smoke, because there's so much of it, although I'm considering using an actual mesh for the explosions. It's taking a while to create, but I'm thinking something like this:


I want robotic legs.
Plotinus
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Posted: 28th Apr 2009 18:32
That explosion model is splendid and much more impressive than what I was thinking of. It's really in keeping with the retro, comic-book look. As it stands, I think the explosions look more out of place than the smoke, so if you were able to use that model or something similar for the explosions but keep the smoke as it is then it would look absolutely fine.
Butter fingers
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Posted: 29th Apr 2009 11:10 Edited at: 29th Apr 2009 11:11
Hey!

Well well well, it was a very productive evening yesterday! Thanks to a bit of help from VanB I have now replaced the D3D lasers on the UFOs with an actual textured object. The lasers now have more thickness to them, which I think looks a lot better.


I've also started to replace the 2D explosions with spheres. Eventually there will be 3 parts to an explosion; spheres, spikes and smoke, but for a minute it's just spheres. Kind of hard to see the effect in just a still frame but you'll get the idea!


There's a bunch of other new stuff:

all vehicles now explode when killed.
*Pedestrians are thrown back if too close to explosions.
*missile handling now means up to 100 active missiles at once.
*Burned out vehicles turn black
*Civilians run away from danger
*Targeting improved so that enemies don't target dying units.

I want robotic legs.
Plotinus
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Posted: 29th Apr 2009 22:47
This isn't a word I use often, but that is awesome.
zzz
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Posted: 29th Apr 2009 22:53
The cartoony effects looks great! Nice work with the new lasers.

Inspire
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Posted: 30th Apr 2009 01:33
I love this.
Satchmo
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Posted: 30th Apr 2009 01:53
Quote: "*missile handling now means up to 100 active missiles at once."


Pics or it didn't happen.

Butter fingers
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Posted: 30th Apr 2009 04:06 Edited at: 30th Apr 2009 04:08
Inspire / plotinus , thanks! Just wait until you hear the sounds!!

Quote: "Nice work with the new lasers."

Cheers. Using the D3D_lines had been annoying me for a while. VanBs help was much appreciated, it was a simple thing I hadn't grasped, but it was key to the effect..!

Quote: "Pics or it didn't happen."
. OK.
click the lightbulb of truth.



I want robotic legs.
Azunaki
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Posted: 30th Apr 2009 08:02
that's pretty sweet. (there's some shading issues it looks like on the tops of roofs in that pic the gradient slides across the roof rather weird) it could just be the angle but. the bottom left corner house(red roof)
Scraggle
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Posted: 30th Apr 2009 09:23 Edited at: 30th Apr 2009 09:39
Your lasers look good but don't seem very bright. When I use laser effects I draw them white with a coloured glow, I think it gives a better effect.

Wait a mo, I'll knock up an example ...



There you go. Overlaid onto your original image. Just a suggestion obviously, but I think it gives lasers a bit more 'pop'



Butter fingers
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Posted: 30th Apr 2009 12:24
@Azunaki
I think you might be right, it's not massively noticable when the whole thing is in motion! I'm going to have to re-do the houses a little anyway, so I'll try and fix that soon!

@Scraggle
Thanks dude. I had done the same thing, but I faded the white down a bit. Having seen that pic, I'll add the white back in. It certainly adds something! Thanks for the input, it's much appreciated, and for taking the time to make a image

I want robotic legs.
darimc
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Posted: 1st May 2009 03:50
Quote: "Pics or it didn't happen."
Don't doubt the butters-ness.

Satchmo
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Posted: 1st May 2009 20:16
Don't worry, he proved it. Very epic!!

Paul112
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 13:06 Edited at: 3rd May 2009 13:06
Looking very slick as always John. Would you care to shed some light on how youre handling the endless pedestrians? I'm not asking you to paste your code, just wondering how that concept works

Keep it up, should be very fun to play!

Paul

Butter fingers
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Posted: 4th May 2009 16:13 Edited at: 4th May 2009 16:16
Hello, hello and hello again.

Sleep patterns have gon out the window. I've been working like an insomniac maniac on this the past few days. I have alot of updates to show!

List of updates since last post:
*Updated UFO lasers to have white highlight in center.
*Reconfigured lasers to handle up to 5 streams on screen (instead of 1)
*Added new spiky explosions
*Added explosion scaling, and explosion damage to all characters
*Civilians are now "blown away" by explosions
*Missiles, tracers and lasers all have collision and cause damage
*All entities can be destroyed, and have their own re-spawns (soldiers at barracks, hueys at helipad, tanks at base and aliens at mothership)
*Created new "shot handling" code to maximise efficiency when there are 500+ shots on screen
*began animating zombies.

Essential TO DOs:
*Add collision/damage/destruction of buildings.
*make entities avoid buildings more intelligently.
*add zombies
*player control


anyway. Heres a couple of update screenshots


THERE IS ALSO AN UPDATE VIDEO ON YOUTUBE. CHECK IT HERE!

@Paul112:
Thankyou dude. The civilian updating thing is relatively simple. If a civilian is behind the camera (not off screen but behind), and they're dead, or they've been off screen for too long then they are reposisioned infront of the camera. It can be a little pop-up, but it's a nice effect. The code for finding if they are behind or infront of the camera is quite elegant, checkit:

I'm using a bubble sort, so that I don't check every civilian every update, only a select few (those furthest from the camera, or dead).
I'm using the same equation to find if targets are within a 180 angle of fire for the guns. It's quite a useful little bit of code, and for the minute, the fastest way I can find of getting this data.

I want robotic legs.
KeithC
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Posted: 4th May 2009 19:10
Looks great Butters! I like how the alien ship crashing causes nearby humans to die, in the explosion.

puppyofkosh
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Posted: 4th May 2009 23:15
Man, this is so cool. How many lines of code are you at?

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