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Geek Culture / Pirate Bay founders jailed :O

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 21:29
Try handing a project in for a course in anything other than an Adobe format. You'll be laughed out today, sadly.

Dragon Knight
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 21:33
The music companies need to go down a different route, they're pretty stupid if they don't see a massive gap in the market. Think about it, if they give it all away free, but include adverts at the start / end, of course they'll still be making money.

It's all about how you look at things, there's so many people using these sites it doesn't really matter anymore.. I even download the odd movie etc.., but I'd still buy the movies if they were great.

Jeku
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 21:35 Edited at: 17th Apr 2009 21:36
@Nex

But welcome to the real world. I don't want to sound like a jerk, but there are products that export to swf that are not Flash. Also, you can pop on Ebay and order older versions of Flash for very cheap. Most of the companies also have education versions just for school. If you're done school and making money doing Flash projects, you just have to bite the bullet and pay for the product. We all have to do this. Hell, I purchased Visual Studio just a few months before Microsoft released VS Express for free. I was out over $300 but since I was making C# apps for my living, that was something I needed to do.

Nobody expects to go through University without paying for text books, do they?

David R
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 21:39 Edited at: 17th Apr 2009 21:43
Quote: "Excuse me?"


If you're using communism as some kind of jibe to discredit another persons argument, you may want to expand your horizons a bit regarding the exact mechanics and theories it contains.

The whole "OH MY GOD COMMUNISM IS EVIL!" slant, which you seem to take (implied by your usage of communism as negative in your sentence) is ignorant, but most of all, flat out wrong.


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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 21:44 Edited at: 17th Apr 2009 21:45
Quote: "If you're using communism as some kind of jibe to discredit another persons argument, you may want to expand your horizons a bit regarding the exact mechanics and theories it contains.

The whole "OH MY GOD COMMUNISM IS EVIL!" slant, which you seem to take (based on your usage of communism in your sentence) is ignorant, but most of all, flat out wrong."


Stop assuming. I'm using communism because what he is describing, a place where everything is shared and free, is a communist ideal. And yes, I'm not a fan of communism. If you are, that's your prerogative. Next time you're in Asia take a trip to North Korea and see how great it is for them Or for that matter, talk to someone from China who was alive when Mao was in power and see how they liked it. Email me if you have issues with what I'm saying, as I don't want this thread to derail into pointless arguments about communism.

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 21:45
Quote: "pop on Ebay"


Except I have tried that. I have bought two copies of Microsoft Office 2003, supposedly used geniune copies off eBay and BOTH were blatant pirates. Tesco/ASDA CD-Rs with instructions telling me to run crack.exe...

It's actually very rare, it seems, that cheap software on eBay is geniune. An Adobe Photoshop CS2 I bought quite recently was a passable pirate. I didn't even realise it was one until I saw those definitive CD-R colours on the back.

Jeku
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 21:47
Well what can I say? You're out of luck, then. Car companies won't give you a car just because you need it to drive to school. You had to pay for the education and for the course that requires Flash, so you should consider that before signing up for the course.

David R
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 21:52
Quote: "Email me if you have issues with what I'm saying, as I don't want this thread to derail into pointless arguments about communism."


I'm not intending to argue, but I'd like to say there is a massive difference between 'vanilla' communism (the concept) and Stalinism/Maoism/Hoxhaism. It's not necessarily fair to blame failed implementations on the root concept. (Which is my main gripe when people say that communism is evil/has killed people etc.)


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 21:53 Edited at: 17th Apr 2009 21:54
@Jeku

I would never suggest that. But student copies of up to date software are not in any way shape or form affordable. (the student versions still cost hundreds and they aren't fully comprehensive or up to date) There are cheaper alternatives that produce SWF files or images but you can't use them because the institutions need the Adobe-specific source files so they can be dissected. This means the only alternate for a lot of people who would otherwise not is to pirate.

Diggsey
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 21:56 Edited at: 17th Apr 2009 21:56
If you give a madman a weapon, and he goes and kills somebody, I think you have some of the responsibility, even if you haven't explicitly broken the law.

If you make a file-sharing site, specifically designed so that the users can remain anonymous, and so that pirated material can be shared without any risk of the person sharing it being caught, then you have some of the responsibility for that too.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 22:15
Quote: "I would never suggest that. But student copies of up to date software are not in any way shape or form affordable. (the student versions still cost hundreds and they aren't fully comprehensive or up to date) There are cheaper alternatives that produce SWF files or images but you can't use them because the institutions need the Adobe-specific source files so they can be dissected. This means the only alternate for a lot of people who would otherwise not is to pirate."


Then as he said, don't take the class or consider the cost before you enroll.

Seriously, nobody can justify piracy. I wonder how many songs some of you guys have downloaded that are from independent labels owned by the artist themselves.

Nobody's forcing an artist to sign a crap contract, but the artists do anyway. It's for one of two reasons, because they actually will make a lot of money from it, or they're desperate.

If they're desperate, it's their own fault for being so. It's no excuse for piracy and still doesn't help the artist.

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 22:18
Quote: "Then as he said, don't take the class or consider the cost before you enroll."


What, and just, you know, do nothing with your life?

Quote: "Seriously, nobody can justify piracy."


How many silver spoons were you born with in your mouth?

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 22:20
If you've only tried ebay for getting flash cheaply, you're not trying hard enough

bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 22:23
Quote: "What, and just, you know, do nothing with your life?"


Uh, yes?

Or here's an idea, work for your achievements.

A car costs over 10k to get brand new. I really need one. So I'm just gonna go steal one off the lot

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 22:25 Edited at: 17th Apr 2009 22:26
Edit

Wow, 2 extra pages.

David R
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 22:43 Edited at: 17th Apr 2009 23:04
Quote: "How many silver spoons were you born with in your mouth?"


Get a job

EDIT: Nex, if you're so deprived, why are you on broadband internet chatting on forums? Surely you should be out scavenging for food?


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bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 22:47 Edited at: 17th Apr 2009 22:48
Quote: "Get a job"


No no, it's alright. Apparently I'm a spoiled brat if I don't pretend to be a figure of moral righteousness when it comes to why I pirate.

AlexI
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 22:48 Edited at: 17th Apr 2009 22:51
Quote: "If you're going to jail people who enable to distribution of pirated material, why aren't Tim-Berners-Lee, Marc Andreessen, heck even Bill Gates in jail right now?"


Oh dear That's entirely different, they invented the technology upon which we use which was intended for good purposes. TPB was invented to help in the distribution of files more specifically other peoples hard work without there permission this is bad.

RalphY
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 22:54
Incidentally sidetracking somewhat for a moment. I collect vinyl's and have a record from 1978 with an image of a cassette tape and crossed bones accompanied by a big bold message stating 'home taping is killing the music industry' printed on the inner sleeve. 31 years later and the industry is still around, still hung up on largely the same things it would seem.

I'm split on this, I think it's pretty clear their intentions were to encourage piracy so on the one hand they should be punished, however technically they weren't pirating anything. Also I don't like having to wait for American TV shows to be shown on TV over here .


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Alucard94
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 22:55 Edited at: 17th Apr 2009 22:55
Quote: "A car costs over 10k to get brand new. I really need one. So I'm just gonna go steal one off the lot"

Why do people use this analogy so much? Stealing cars and pirating is not the same, I mean I understand your point and all but still.


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AlexI
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 23:01 Edited at: 17th Apr 2009 23:02
Heres more accurate analogy:



TheComet
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 23:09
Quote: "So... steal their music so the artist will get absolutely nothing? I see."


They don't get nothing, they just get 5% of the income... And that sucks.

Quote: "I still laugh when I see this. There will never be enough people to support that laughable statement. Sorry to burst your bubble, but in capitalist societies people will not put up for this kind of Communist principle."

Quote: "I'm pretty sure Napster had more in its prime, and look what happened to them. Those 12 million people are *all* trying to get something for free, something that people have worked hard to make. No government in the world will officially legalize piracy, that is just ludicrous.

Even the most hardcore Stalinist Communist state, North Korea, sends out cease and desist letters for posting their copyrighted songs on websites. I should know, I received one!"


Lets hope it stays that way.

BTW, Napster is from a film and not reality...

Quote: "You couldn't be more ignorant on this subject, actually."


And somehow I am proud of it!

Quote: "Do you have any idea what would happen if they made it legal to pirate software, movies, and music? Those sectors account for BILLIONS of dollars that go into the government coffers."


I can't know, but I can guess, and I can tell you how I would react and how it could be.

I think the way it should be is that you can download the films "illegally" to view them first, and if it is good you then buy it.

I would probably not pirate, I would still pay for products because I think it is correct to pay the artist for his hard work. But You should be able to see in full detail what you are buying first... And that is why the corporations are reacting that hardly.

Quote: "Do you think companies like TGC would be in business if they just released everything for free? Idiocy."


They wouldn't release everything for free. It would go on like usual. And I would appreciate the work stuck into those products and happily pay for it.

Quote: "Interesting, I didn't know it's a crime to make money in capitalist countries."


It isn't. My point to that was that a lot of people go to these corporations to get their products sold.

TheComet

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bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 23:09
Quote: "Why do people use this analogy so much? Stealing cars and pirating is not the same, I mean I understand your point and all but still."


Saying "I'm going to steal CS4 for school because it costs too much" is the same as "I'm going to steal cars because they cost too much".

Perhaps in another situation the analogy fails, but in this case, they are the same thing.

Where exactly is there some kind of distinction?

bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 23:13
Quote: "They don't get nothing, they just get 5% of the income... And that sucks."


You know what sucks worse? Getting 0% because you stole it instead of paying my publisher your 99 cents like I want you to as the artist.

Quote: "BTW, Napster is from a film and not reality..."


Napster was real. It was super popular in the early '00s and was *awesome* and totally new way of getting any song you ever wanted to hear.

Jeku
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 23:24 Edited at: 17th Apr 2009 23:27
Quote: "If you give a madman a weapon, and he goes and kills somebody, I think you have some of the responsibility, even if you haven't explicitly broken the law."


I disagree, as weapons can technically be used for legal things (hunting, target practice, etc). TPB is meant for illegal use... period.

Quote: "They don't get nothing, they just get 5% of the income... And that sucks."


5% of something is better than 5% of nothing, which is what they will get if you pirate their music. They will get nothing. Somehow that's better?

Quote: "BTW, Napster is from a film and not reality..."


That's a joke, right

Quote: "I think the way it should be is that you can download the films "illegally" to view them first, and if it is good you then buy it."


Well, the way you think it should be, and the way it is, don't seem to be aligned. A judge will not accept your excuse of "You see, this is the way it should be." Try it if you're ever arrested for copyright violations

Quote: "But You should be able to see in full detail what you are buying first... And that is why the corporations are reacting that hardly."


For most media, there are ways to do that legally. You can walk into most CD shops here and listen to any of the albums. You can go to iTunes or Amazon and listen to a preview of each track before purchase. You can rent a movie or game from Blockbuster and watch it before deciding whether to purchase it. Most software companies have trial versions of their software.

Quote: "They wouldn't release everything for free. It would go on like usual. And I would appreciate the work stuck into those products and happily pay for it."


Well, that's not how the world works. You can't just take something and then pay for it if you appreciate the work.

Quote: "My point to that was that a lot of people go to these corporations to get their products sold."


You see, businesses produce a product or service, and they are paid for it by the customers. A label does a service for an artist (pays for physical CDs, cases, marketing, etc.) and they take a cut of the revenue. This kind of relationship occurs in all business. There are 3rd party companies who are marketing their software on the TGC site, and TGC takes a cut. The company doesn't have to do this, but it gets their product out to a larger audience.

And these so-called "starving artists" don't have to go to these existing record labels. They can start their own label. Sure, the risks are higher, but the reward can be greater. Nobody is forcing an artist to go with a big label and get 5% of the income.

bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 23:42 Edited at: 17th Apr 2009 23:42
Quote: "There are 3rd party companies who are marketing their software on the TGC site, and TGC takes a cut."


This is why I pirate all of TGC's products, so that the original authors can know I'm fighting for them

PAGAN_old
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 23:45
Quote: "Some people are serving 20 years for selling marijuana to cancer sufferers to help combat the medication side-effects - a year is nothing."


that makes me sad

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
Benjamin
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 23:48
This news pleases me.

Black Rebel Heart
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 23:53
This news displeases me.
Mr Z
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Posted: 17th Apr 2009 23:54
Quote: "
Seriously, nobody can justify piracy. I wonder how many songs some of you guys have downloaded that are from independent labels owned by the artist themselves."


Once when I went over to a LAN, and took the Crysis CD with me (did not have it installed), I managed to forget the key for it, lol. So I download one, installed it. When I got home I uninstalled Crysis, to install it again with my legal key. Was that wrong, since I already had the game but forgot and just fixed it temporarily?

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
Black Rebel Heart
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 00:02
lol paying for music
bitJericho
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 00:04
Quote: "Once when I went over to a LAN, and took the Crysis CD with me (did not have it installed), I managed to forget the key for it, lol. So I download one, installed it. When I got home I uninstalled Crysis, to install it again with my legal key. Was that wrong, since I already had the game but forgot and just fixed it temporarily?"


That's not piracy.

Mr Z
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 00:09 Edited at: 18th Apr 2009 00:09
Quote: "That's not piracy."


Thought it was as much piracy to download keys as software .

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
bitJericho
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 00:16
Quote: "Thought it was as much piracy to download keys as software"


I doubt you'd get in trouble anywhere int he world for this case. Perhaps the game publishers would like you to think it's piracy, and maybe in some locales it is legally piracy. But I couldn't say that is piracy. You paid for the software, you made your software work, nobody lost a sale.

Outscape
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 00:16
btw there raising an appeal agaisnt



heyufool1
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 00:43 Edited at: 18th Apr 2009 00:43
I don't know if this has been asked yet but if TPB is shut down do you think that the media will go after the users of TPB?

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bitJericho
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 00:55 Edited at: 18th Apr 2009 00:55
Quote: "I don't know if this has been asked yet but if TPB is shut down do you think that the media will go after the users of TPB?"


The publishing companies and associations have been going after the users of TPB and similar services for years.

heyufool1
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 00:56
Well i mean even more then before and do you think it's possible to get caught using it if you don't have an account, you just download?

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 00:56
No. It isn't.

bitJericho
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 01:05
Quote: "No. It isn't."


Yes, it is.

The way they catch you is the MPAA, ESA, IRAA, etc help seed the torrents. When they see you downloading/uploading data, they can log your IP address and get your information through your ISP.

Alucard94
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 01:06
Quote: "Saying "I'm going to steal CS4 for school because it costs too much" is the same as "I'm going to steal cars because they cost too much".

Perhaps in another situation the analogy fails, but in this case, they are the same thing.
"

Ah sorry, misread the post.


Alucard94, the member of the future of the past.
Diggsey
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 01:24
@Jeku
Quote: "I disagree, as weapons can technically be used for legal things (hunting, target practice, etc)."


My point was that unless you make sure that the weapon is going to be used for legal activities, you have the responsibility. And TPB is not JUST for illegal activities, it can be used for legal file sharing just as weapons can be used for hunting and target practice, so the analogy holds.

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Mr Z
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 01:28
Quote: "
I doubt you'd get in trouble anywhere int he world for this case. Perhaps the game publishers would like you to think it's piracy, and maybe in some locales it is legally piracy. But I couldn't say that is piracy. You paid for the software, you made your software work, nobody lost a sale."


Lol, won´t argue with you on that, even if it technically is piracy in my opinion. How about if you buy a game, but it won´t work without a crack for some reason? Or you get a game that just won´t work, but an illegal copy would, so you get one (have seen that)?

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 01:40 Edited at: 18th Apr 2009 01:42
You've not obtained the data by desirable means, and I suppose you could categorize it as piracy too, because you're using the same means, though the situation is different on the basis that you've paid for it and that nobody is at a loss - you can use the product you paid money for and the company or seller got paid. Whether or not that's legal, I don't know, but as long as you can prove you own the product, I doubt anybody would press charges.

Jeku
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 02:17 Edited at: 18th Apr 2009 02:20
Quote: "And TPB is not JUST for illegal activities, it can be used for legal file sharing"


Standard bit-torrenting can be legal, *that* much I know. The Pirate Bay, a site that even has Pirate in the name, is NOT meant for legal torrenting by any means.

Robin
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 02:23
Read the news earlier, thought it was a bit of a joke in as far as it will have absolutely no effect on piracy, which I guess was the overall aim of the case. Traffic will just shift to another website or another 'pirate bay' website will pop up, with servers hosted in another country and operating under different laws. I've read the fine is going to univeral, sony and mgm...I've no idea how they could possibly have arrived at the total of $3.58m, and indeed how they expect the 4 guys to pay it. I guess that $3.58m is going straight to the artists then...yeah? hmm, maybe not.
Do a quick search on google for "axxo torrent", you get nearly 9m results. I'd say that's pretty easy to use google to search for torrents, perhaps even better than just using one website. Google is facilitating copyright theft, so are they next in line to receive a fine?


Just to add, I'm against piracy in general, it's just I find this verdict to be pretty pointless. The music industry needs to find ways to deal with piracy, but pointing at scapegoats like this isn't the way. It'll be interesting to see how the appeal pans out...

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IanM
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 02:29 Edited at: 18th Apr 2009 02:31
Quote: "or another 'pirate bay' website will pop up"

One interesting thing of note - it was the founders + 1 other that were personally taken to court. This judgement in no way affects the pirate bay site itself.

Another thing is that their servers are already in place in several different countries so that it's pretty much impossible to take down any more - you'd need simultaneous judgements in all locations to take them down, else they'll stay up and probably add a few more countries to their list in the meantime.

Basically (as the TPB people have said) this is all just a show and will have no real impact at all, apart from making TPB a household name.

[EDIT]
In response to the title of this thread ... no-one has been put in jail yet, and that may never happen. No-one can get jailed until the final appeal is lost, and 3 out of the 4 do not live in Sweden anyway.

bitJericho
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 02:50 Edited at: 18th Apr 2009 02:53
Quote: "My point was that unless you make sure that the weapon is going to be used for legal activities, you have the responsibility. And TPB is not JUST for illegal activities, it can be used for legal file sharing just as weapons can be used for hunting and target practice, so the analogy holds"


I'm pretty sure if your gun is used for illegal purposes after you lent it out you will be in pretty big trouble.

But I'm sure we were all already aware of that >.<

Carry on...

xplosys
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 03:25 Edited at: 18th Apr 2009 03:28
I'm reading a lot about what's right and what's wrong, and whether or not someone can be found guilty for doing something or nothing at all. In reality, that often has little to do with a verdict. The media is big money, and whoever can throw the most money at a case often wins, whether they have a case or not.

It's money that makes the laws and money that interprets or enforces them selectively to suite a particular need. That's the way the system is set up. Justice is for the poor. The rich don't need it.

As for TPB, I would have to ask myself if they took any steps to control piracy. I think the fact that they knew it was going on is indisputable. Assuming that they built the site with good intention, and had in mind that it be used for legal file sharing, what did they do about the blatant misuse? If the answer is "We didn't store any files on our servers" then I think they got what they deserved. That's a completely personal opinion; you already know my opinion of the legal system.

There are always many sides to any situation. If TPB made baseball bats, and someone used one to kill someone, you would think that they would not be liable for that. After all, the bat was made for baseball, not killing.

If after this person killed someone with the bat, TPB continued to sell him bats knowing that he was killing people with them, what would their liability be then? Would they be an accessory to murder, or just grossly irresponsible?

The question to me is, did they know that piracy was going on and were they facilitating it? If so, they got what they had coming to them, all other legalities aside.

Best.


EDITED for punctuation.

SunnyKatt
19
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Joined: 16th Sep 2006
Location: USA
Posted: 18th Apr 2009 03:41 Edited at: 18th Apr 2009 21:44
I'm not joining this argument, just wanted to state my opinion (read first page only, so ignore this post if you think it's irrelevant):

Pirates are scum and I'm happy the guy was jailed - I wish he was tortured too. Having the site being shut down too would be great.


EDIT: Now bolded for extra-awesomeness!


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