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FPS Creator X10 / What Happened To The Tech Demo?

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 13th May 2009 01:55 Edited at: 13th May 2009 01:56
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I don't want to start complaining just as FPSC X10 gets a few decent updates recently but I've spent some time watching the tech demos on youtube and we are missing some really cool things.

Seeing as they've not been confirmed for the migration which seems more beneficial to X9 users. I thought I'd put a quick list of features I hope TGC will do their best to provide for us.

Realtime Cube Mapping
Lee has said this is a very performance unfriendly effect. Personally I think it should be for the developer to decide if and how the effect is used if they've paid for it.

Editable Soft Particles
Sure we got 2 soft particle effects out of the box but no way of editing them e.g. colour or creating our own to produce something as impressive as demonstrated in the tech video.

Manual Control Mode
"You can now control the camera and the effects with the mouse and keyboard as you enter Manual Control Mode". Really? How?

Soft Stencil Shadows
We got soft stencil shadows for characters but nowhere near the quality of the tech demo. They do not get cast in relation to lights and only appear when a character is next to you. The shadows do not get cast with the distance or crispness shown in the tech demo and I don't believe they get refracted in water as demonstrated.

Depth of Field Shader
Clearly demonstrated in the tech demo but not found in the retail version. No FPSC call of duty mod is going to be complete without it.

GPU Instancing
We did get object instancing and texture arrays which is nice but I've not seen any evidence of scaling variation features present.

If anyone is aware of others that needs to be added to the list please do so. I won't speak for anyone else but at the moment it feels like we have FPSC X10 lite. I want the full unrestricted version that gives me the option of seeing all of the effects maxed out. If the above features have already been prototyped why can't we just have them and be given some more options in the test game menu to switch them on and off or scale them.

Here are the tech demo videos listed in release date order so you can look out for the above and any others. At least we might get some airmod features like ironsights and recoil in the migration I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaxezrAz9g0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO8hPIh1Xtk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BqbBPJmKws&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ3VhbyPLbo
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crumbaker
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Posted: 13th May 2009 02:21
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like I've said many times before. It would be very nice if we got the things promised to us before a new version, that doesn't seem to benefit us at all. I couldn't agree with you more.

I might seem like a broken record but I want what I paid for.
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Jingle Fett
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Posted: 13th May 2009 02:28
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I have to agree.
I've heard the argument that if we don't like the way it is, we should switch to another engine. My answer to that is, we've paid money for this program, most of us aren't ones to let that money go to waste.
It should be entirely up to the developer whether they want a low frame rate but high graphics, that's one thing that irks me a lot about some of the limitations on X10...

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 13th May 2009 03:21
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Quote: "I've heard the argument that if we don't like the way it is, we should switch to another engine."


I totally agree with both of you. I'm only asking for features paid for as shown and in some cases the feature is there, it's just been restricted.

A good example of this is the soft particle limitation which was changed to allow them to be used in abundance. Its not had a significant performance impact (if any) so why can't we have the freedom to use and scale all of the effects and give our own system specification recommendations for games.

As I say what we have right now feels like FPSC X10 lite and as developers we should be given the pro version. If I want part of a level to have some outstanding visuals and less action I should be able to do that.
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Coach Shogun 20
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Posted: 13th May 2009 04:06
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I have to agree. It kinda stinks, maybe if enough of us write to Lee, we'll get some of those after the migration (although I'd like them sooner)

And also, it's not the same, but there is camera fly mode for test games. It doesn't let you change anything with the keyboard, and I'm not sure if you can change the effects in the TAB menu, but it does let you fly around, useful for making videos and trailers.

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Jingle Fett
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Posted: 13th May 2009 09:44 Edited at: 13th May 2009 09:51
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Yeah. I find it irritating that there are little things (like the cam fly mode) that simply aren't documented anywhere. Certainly there's no list in the manual. If the little details like the limitations on the soft particles and all those other little things were at least mentioned somewhere, at least we'd know or have a place to check. As it is, users struggle for hours to find out how to do something, only to discover that it has limitations, or else is not possible (I had this feeling big-time upon discovering that you can't have relief mapping on segments, at least not directly). That kind of thing kills the user's motivation to try to experiment and actually use the features X10 supposedly has (how many times have we heard X9 users saying something like "I wish I had X10 so I could use all the features and show everyone how to make a real game" or "The X10 users are letting all those features go to waste, nobody's using them"?). Well, why should we spend our valuable time trying to explore and learn how to use features that we don't even know if they work? Or that if they do work, they might be limited?

Personally, I find that to be extremely frustrating and maybe even a bit misleading. It's no good to have soft particles if you can't really do anything to them and can't modify the existing ones. I mentioned the relief mapping thing to Lee in a topic somewhere (I think it was in the community outcry to get some X10 attention) and I believe his response was that allowing relief mapping on segments would really hurt the performance on most computers. I believe that should be left to the developer...I also think it's a little weak to not have certain features just because they'd hurt performance; it should be pretty clear to most people that if you go overboard, your performance will drop.

Just for the record though, I'm in no way saying that I'm not thankful for the little attention X10 has been getting lately.
I just wonder if the attention we do get will be enough since, like you said Nomad Soul and I fully agree with you, the migration really is way more beneficial to X9 users than it is to the X10 users.

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4125
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Posted: 13th May 2009 09:48
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I Had No Idea We Was Supose To Get All Of that....

Computer Specs: Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 2.80GHz @ 1066Mhz FSB 3MB Cache, Dual Channel 8192MB DDR2 PC6400 800MHz RAM, XFX Nvidia Geforce 9800 GTX+ 512MB, MSI P7N SLI-FI Motherboard - nForce 750i SLI
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Mazz426
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Posted: 13th May 2009 20:37
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TGC have messed up big time and we shouldn't have been shown such things if they were never going to be released we should get what we were promiced

gamer for life
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The Next
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Posted: 13th May 2009 20:46
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It does actually state that features shown in tech demos may not be included in the final version of FPSC X10 due to time and technology constraints.

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Gears of War
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Posted: 13th May 2009 21:08
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Quote: "the migration really is way more beneficial to X9 users than it is to the X10 users."


I fully agree with you. I paid good money for X10, and I belive that it deserves better. I mean, the X9 version is now free, so come migration time, X9 users will get a load of previously EXLUSIVE content meant for X10, for FREE. That means that if the download it from trialplay and then get the migriation, they get X10 for FREE!! And what does X10 get? What are the super, awsome, cool things about X9 that arn't in X10?!!!?

Survivor: Survival Horror project

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=147700&b=25
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The Next
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Posted: 13th May 2009 21:24
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Well here is a few we will get

New scripting commands Lee added to X9 in last few updates
AirMod Commands

Oh wait thats about it, thats decent ... yep i agree totally we are getting ripped off by TGC for something that cost us more than X9 and now everything we paid for is being given to all the people that had the crappy version for free.

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Gears of War
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Posted: 13th May 2009 21:41
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I know. I waited a a year to get X10 and 5 months to get a rig to play it, and now all that is being flushed down the drain. I could have gotten X9 for free and then benifited from this horrible migration. I think that TGC should focus on X10, as it has more potential. How about getting better physics. Or perhaps more room for custom stuff, and more freedom to make it. Maybe a terrain editor. Come on TGC, take advantage of Direct X10. My rig runs CRYSIS better than X10, and it looks 5 times better!!

Survivor: Survival Horror project

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The Next
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Posted: 13th May 2009 21:48
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I have just sent the link to this post to Lee Bamber maybe he can tell use what we are actually going to get out of this as we are all very confused.

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Coach Shogun 20
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Posted: 13th May 2009 23:01
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lol, I have a suggestion. Cancel the migration, and stop giving support for x9. That way, they can double the support for x10. That'll get alot of the babies of their computer chairs and into their wallets to get x10.

seriously though, we need more support. The migration to me, seems like a cheap ploy to cut down on having to support 2 FPSC engines, with TGC now only supporting one FPSC engine.

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Apple Slicer
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Posted: 14th May 2009 03:13 Edited at: 14th May 2009 03:14
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Hmm, reading all you threads...


My PC can't run Fpsc X10. However, even still, I have to agree with some of you about the apparent lack of updates. I also think the migration is...Not needed. X10 will eventually consume X9 entirely, but the joke is, if Lee doesnt get your guys X10 up to date, by the time anyone every gets a good solid game out, X11 or 12 will be out.


As for X9, I think its time that people just learn DB a bit. Look at the amazing power of the mods you can get for X9. They are great! But people want the 20 dollars they spent to take them to the moon, and get money from selling their games in their wallets, and their photo in the Game Informer. I think that the next thing TGC should do, is release X10s source code...

Sorry for the rant.

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visual dreamer
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Posted: 14th May 2009 03:34
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you now guys it is true soms tings can be beter,but i tink that the fps x10 is a great and good deal.
and do you now why,look a round it is very rare to see a cheap game engine that can pull off what x10 can do.
and be glad you have opportunity to make games at that quality.
but of course you alwas buy another game engine.
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Coach Shogun 20
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Posted: 14th May 2009 04:05
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Well, what we're getting at visual dreamer is that what we were promised was never delivered. And really I feel that the only reason the migration is taking place is because TGC didn't give x10 enough support at the beginning. That led most x9 users to believe that they had no reason to buy it if they don't get support, and so now TGC is doing the migration to force x9 users to a newer product. IMAO, TGC would make more money if they cut support for x9 and only supported x10. More people would finally make the switch.

We are happy with x10, but the point is that it could be alot better. It's obvious that alot of these features were originally produced, but were removed from the code. So how big a problem is it to add the code back in (unless they deleted it) in an update? The arguement that it would be a performance issue should not stand, especially since most people that have x10 have hardcore gaming rigs or are getting hardcore gaming rigs. These things can handle Crysis on the highest settings, so what's the problem with FPSC?

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Gears of War
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Posted: 14th May 2009 04:09
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Quote: "i tink that the fps x10 is a great and good deal."


So is X9, were you get it for free and then get all the features of the improved version for free. Why don't I do that? As for support and updates, why not focus on the engine with the most potential? Don't get me wrong, X9 can make some amazing games. But the time of X9 is nearly over, sad to say. Im sure that people who PURCHASED X9 desrve the migration and it's offerings for free, but those who got the free X9 should have to pay money for the new features.

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uman
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Posted: 14th May 2009 04:21
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The Migration version is FPSC to come - apparently. What you will get in that no one knows. What you get is what you see included at the time its released and perhaps thereafter.

In the mean time whats past is past - many have some complaint regarding both X9 and X10 and some none - however in the time of current limbo you might as well ask away for what you would like to see in the Migration Version.

Its unlikely that asking for anything to be now added to X9 or X10 is going to gain any real support in the TGC camp.

Its going to be a long wait. You might as well get used to it and settle down to twiddle your thumbs or make a little game with what you have to keep the thumbs busy instead.



250 seamless textures : http://www.umedia.co.uk/html/real_world_textures.html
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FredP
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Posted: 14th May 2009 04:42
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Quote: "Its going to be a long wait."

Yeah but think how long it was between the release of FPSC and the first update.TGC has their own time table and they release stuff whenever they get ready...one of the reasons x10's release date was pushed back so far.
We are going to enjoy the migration version once it finally gets here.

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seth zer0
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Posted: 14th May 2009 13:33
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All I have to say is I bought x9 and loved it(back in 2005 yes with all that was wrong with it I still loved it.). Then I saw x10 and was wowed by it. The graphics the new ragdolls were awesome all the nice things we saw in the tech demo and the stuff that lee talk about in the interviews. So from what I saw I bought x10 and put x9 aside and was in wow by the graphics and improvements x10 had(note: didn't buy intel v 1.08)but I felt like I was missing something so I started looking for it and it was not there. So I search the forms was not there. So I forgot about it in tell bond1 came out with model pack 21.... now x9 has everything that x10 has(with a mod you can get water and bloom.)that's when i felt ripped off. So yes I don't thing the migration is right and yes I would like all the thing promissed. heck at lest better shadows so let x9 v 1.15 be the last of it and just update x10.

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mgarand
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Posted: 14th May 2009 16:02
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totally agree, or we get open source so we can make our own mods

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zachrb
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Posted: 16th May 2009 00:59
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Yes I would love to see x10 get some new features. Discussions like this make someone who is about to buy x10 think about getting x9... I mean I will get x10 in a year or so for free. What motivation do I have to pay now for x10.

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ricwid
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Posted: 17th May 2009 19:46
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Were all been taken for a ride!
im sorry i bougth this unfinished product!
im stupid,stupid!
R
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mgarand
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Posted: 17th May 2009 20:07
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Quote: "im sorry i bougth this unfinished product!
im stupid,stupid!
R "


Its not really unfinished. After the new update most bugs are fixed!
We are complaning about feathured who arent been added.

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SikaSina Games
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Posted: 17th May 2009 20:14 Edited at: 17th May 2009 20:15
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...ricwid, that's pure spam and you know it...

I'm on neither side since I love both of them (X9 has a better interface whereas X10 has much better graphics) and I believe the migration should be free for X10 users and a small price for the X9 users. Heck, I don't like paying for updates and wouldn't pay for the update immediately, I'd wait and see the results. Besides, there's no way X9 will harness to power of X10, notice the difference? Think about it, X9 can't handle advanced GPU instancing and intensive bloom, neither can it support proper motion blur. X10 can though. They're both great products and I would like to say that I would rather pay for the X9 migration and get the X10 one free.[/rant]

[offtopic]2nd longest post by me?[/offtopic]

-FCV

NO LONGER ABLE TO PLAY ON MY CRAPBOX SINCE I GOT THE RRoD
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ricwid
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Posted: 17th May 2009 20:31 Edited at: 17th May 2009 20:32
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To first company veteran
,wait is the word i always hear and !
i am too after whats promised nothing else!
PS! its not spam just frustration!
R
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Jingle Fett
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Posted: 17th May 2009 20:50
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EFX Mod has Motion blur (granted it's not true motion blur)...But X10 doesn't have motion blur

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Coach Shogun 20
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Posted: 17th May 2009 23:26
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perhaps we should start a thread (or just use this one) about features we would like to be x10 specific (because we do deserve them) for the migration.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 18th May 2009 00:19
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All

Thanks for all the feedback so far. I've listed some of the main points I'd like TGC to consider.

- The migration will provide X9 users with previously exclusive X10 features for free. What exclusive X10 content is planned?

- Are any of the X10 features currently missing from the tech demo going to be added?

- Some X10 features are restricted e.g. soft particles cannot be edited or created / soft stencil shadows are not visible from distance etc. Can these be unrestricted?

- There is no official documentation for advanced X10 features and the community are having to figure out what is possible and how to do things. Can we have some support documentation for advanced features?

- Now the X9 v115 source code has been released and significant progress is being made by the mod community. Will TGC be providing more support for X10 in the future if the source is not being released?

- The shader system for FPSC X10 has been much improved over X9 but there are more engine dependancies for getting them to work and some are hard coded. Will there be support to make custom shaders more approachable?

My concern is we've waited over a year to get some bug fixes and compatibility issues resolved in X10. The migration could take a lot more time and will only provide us with some recent X9 updates. That means we could be waiting for 2 years without getting any new X10 exclusive features or even some of the missing tech demo features.

I hope TGC will have a good think about the future of FPSC X10 and make some good decisions to ensure it doesn't fail to achieve its potential.
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DJ Almix
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Posted: 18th May 2009 08:45
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I as an X10 beta tester must answer these!

Quote: "Realtime Cube Mapping
Lee has said this is a very performance unfriendly effect. Personally I think it should be for the developer to decide if and how the effect is used if they've paid for it."


I heard this was removed very early

Quote: "
Editable Soft Particles
Sure we got 2 soft particle effects out of the box but no way of editing them e.g. colour or creating our own to produce something as impressive as demonstrated in the tech video."


They got rid of these all together after the tech demo not one beta version included soft particles. I actually think on the 2nd to last beta they finally gave the beta testers what they call the current particles.

Quote: "Manual Control Mode
"You can now control the camera and the effects with the mouse and keyboard as you enter Manual Control Mode". Really? How?"


Never heard of this, I think they tried to make up for it with ghost cam.

Quote: "Soft Stencil Shadows
We got soft stencil shadows for characters but nowhere near the quality of the tech demo. They do not get cast in relation to lights and only appear when a character is next to you. The shadows do not get cast with the distance or crispness shown in the tech demo and I don't believe they get refracted in water as demonstrated."


I hate stencil shadows there horrible in all ways in the case of X10. You never see these there so un-realistic only during like sun sets will you. Other then that shadows are always blurred. These also do hell to the graphics card in X10. They should have release any good ol' dynamic shadows and I would have been happy. I do not know anything about this though.
Quote: "
Depth of Field Shader
Clearly demonstrated in the tech demo but not found in the retail version. No FPSC call of duty mod is going to be complete without it."


This was answered, but I can't remember specifically what the reason for it was. I think it was bad for performance or it was buggy.

Quote: "GPU Instancing
We did get object instancing and texture arrays which is nice but I've not seen any evidence of scaling variation features present."


I don't see what more you could want with this please fill me in .

I guess that's my contribution.

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The Next
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Posted: 19th May 2009 23:17
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Now we have a video of what FPS Creator X10 can actually do i have taken the liberty of uploading on myself and will do another in the next few days for shadows and camera movements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6ZokeasnSU&feature=channel_page

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DeltaCommando5
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Posted: 25th May 2009 10:17 Edited at: 25th May 2009 10:23
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I bet his comp crashed right before launch.... then he got depressed and just threw us whatever was left over. lol

Gateway P-7811

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Dar13
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 22:51 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2009 23:01
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Quote: "I mean, the X9 version is now free"

Wait a minute! Since when is X9 free?
I see that it still costs $60(or $30 and a few model packs). Yes you got an unfinished product, but you were warned that not every single thing in the demos would make it in. You're only paying $10 more?! Yes you should have correct documentation, and a few of Nomad Soul's suggestions as well.

Quote: "totally agree, or we get open source so we can make our own mods"

That depends, do you want a DBPro V1 for X10 instead of DX8.1?

[/defensive stance]

I truly think that Lee is probably stretching himself too much over too many distinct products to be as effective as he could be.

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seth zer0
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2009 06:18
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@Dar13 If you go through all that stuff to get it free. Fps creator X9 is free and fps creator x10 is $20 dollars more then x9. And for that extra $20 all you get is a few new things added to the graphics and a.i. And on top of that the shadows in x10 don't even look as good as they do in x9. With the right mod and new shaders(that are now easy to make with darkshader) you can get all the pretty new toys that x10 has and only need x9. And with the migration you wont need the mods for the most part..

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Hockeykid
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2009 15:39 Edited at: 3rd Jun 2009 21:57
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Nvm

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seth zer0
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No it was not, I bought it back in 2005(Fps creator x9) and it was $49.00. Thats the year it came out for the public 2004 was when the early adopter version came out. The only things that drop in price was dbo pro and dbo classic.

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Coach Shogun 20
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@Dar13: So you agree that we got an unfinished product? We know that not everything that was in the demo's would make it in, but since they obviously had these features coded why not just give it to us if the reason for not is: "It would be too demanding of the system".

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Hockeykid
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 01:28
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Quote: "@Dar13: So you agree that we got an unfinished product? We know that not everything that was in the demo's would make it in, but since they obviously had these features coded why not just give it to us if the reason for not is: "It would be too demanding of the system"."


I agree that x10 was a "Unfinished product" but there were also many promised x9 features that never made it in so I believe that both x10 and x9 are "Unfinished products" but maybe the migration will make them feel finished.

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Dar13
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 02:41
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Quote: "I agree that x10 was a "Unfinished product" but there were also many promised x9 features that never made it in so I believe that both x10 and x9 are "Unfinished products" but maybe the migration will make them feel finished."


I share the same opinion.

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Math89
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 17:03
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Saying that x10 is an unfinished product for these reasons would mean that every single program is an unfinished product. The only mistake TGC did is to show a video before everything was finished, thinking that these features will be kept for the final release.
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Coach Shogun 20
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 20:41
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Okay, now I understand. I personally feel shorted out by the migration, but oh well. Maybe Lee is going to announce some big, x10 only feature.

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game freak16
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 21:16
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I feel like we can get a lot from the migration. Look at airmod, plysmod, and xrMod. They have awesome features that x10 does not have. I do feel a little ripped off though becaue i bought both and people who didnt will get a free upgrade.

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Coach Shogun 20
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Posted: 5th Jun 2009 00:26
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I'm gonna laugh if the migration's features are cut down extremely.

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Dar13
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Posted: 5th Jun 2009 04:24
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Same here Coach Shogun.

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midgetz
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Posted: 5th Jun 2009 18:28
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Rais Your Hand If You Have Scene The EFX Mod For X9.
Cause I Have!

In Soviet Russia, video game plays you!
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Hockeykid
DBPro Tool Maker
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Posted: 5th Jun 2009 18:50
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Quote: "Rais Your Hand If You Have Scene The EFX Mod For X9.
Cause I Have!
"


I have, and I also have seen that it gets about 3 fps on mid range computers and is now only available to Germans.

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wizard of id
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Posted: 5th Jun 2009 18:53
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Quote: "Manual Control Mode
"You can now control the camera and the effects with the mouse and keyboard as you enter Manual Control Mode". Really? How?"


lol um ever occurred to you that the narrator meant that your taking over the controls now to adjust settings your self of the tech demo

rolf

Pointless Assault video
http://w13.easy-share.com/1408971.html
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DeltaCommando5
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Posted: 7th Jun 2009 09:58
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Ugh, I'm still confused about this migration thing. So, basically, its simply a way to forget the past FPSC developments by regrouping everyone and making a new beginning? Lee must be haunted by something and he's trying to quickly leave it behind without us knowing.....

Gateway P-7811

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Coach Shogun 20
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Posted: 7th Jun 2009 20:23
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@DeltaCommando5: Maybe FPSC x10 users getting angry over lack of support. Probably not. It's probably just to make TGC's job easier only having to provide support for one engine, instead of two.

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