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3 Dimensional Chat / The Poly Count Discussion.. (Models Included!)

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David Gervais
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Posted: 26th May 2009 16:02
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Hi there,

I thought it might be interesting to discuss what kinds of shapes can be made as the poly count goes up. I'll be posting examples and at some point even texturing objects to show how a shape can be viewed as totally different depending on what kind of texture is applied.

From what I understand, 4 ploy's is the lowest number that can be used to make a 3D shape (with no open faces, ie a solid object) Here is a basic sample and I attached the .x files in a zip..



Not much we can do with this, it's basically a solid triangle, and one version where I stretch two points to give a different looking shape.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the next number of poly's is 6 right? There is no way to add just one more poly to make a new object. My next object will then obviously be a pyramid (4 sides and a square botom) Can anyone guess what other common shape I'll be making with 6 poly's?

I'll make the post in a few hours, I'm also expecting this thread to get more interesting as the poly count goes up in the discussion.

Comments are welcome and if you can think of an interesting shape that gets left out of the discussion throw your idea in the mix.

Cheers!, Let's have fun with this.

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 26th May 2009 19:47
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Many greeks died for this information

Well I guess I should start off with the debate on whether or not a plane could be considered 3D. While it doesn't technically have 3 axis (x,y,z), it does exist in 3D space. Therefor, I think the minimum number of poly's would be 2. Classically it's a 2D shape that exists in a 3D environment. But given the fact that after the plane is created, it can be warped along all 3 axis, I would have to say that it is indeed 3D. You can't do that to a 2D object.

It keeps with the polycount pattern thus far. 2,4,6.

You got me on the other 6 sided. I can't think yet, I just woke up

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Alucard94
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Posted: 26th May 2009 19:59 Edited at: 26th May 2009 20:48
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Edit: Nevermind


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Quantum Fusion
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Posted: 26th May 2009 20:28
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Quote: "Many greeks died for this information

Well I guess I should start off with the debate on whether or not a plane could be considered 3D. While it doesn't technically have 3 axis (x,y,z), it does exist in 3D space. Therefor, I think the minimum number of poly's would be 2. Classically it's a 2D shape that exists in a 3D environment. But given the fact that after the plane is created, it can be warped along all 3 axis, I would have to say that it is indeed 3D. You can't do that to a 2D object.

It keeps with the polycount pattern thus far. 2,4,6.

You got me on the other 6 sided. I can't think yet, I just woke up "


If a plane is to be considered as 3D (2D existing in a 3D environment) then the same could be said about a line (two points)
or even a single point or vertex (because both could exist in a 3D environment).

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Venge
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Posted: 26th May 2009 20:31
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@Alucard: I think he means 5 triangles.


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Alucard94
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Posted: 26th May 2009 20:48
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Oh alright, edited it out to not make it eat a lot of thread space.


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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 26th May 2009 22:52
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Quote: "If a plane is to be considered as 3D (2D existing in a 3D environment) then the same could be said about a line (two points)
or even a single point or vertex (because both could exist in a 3D environment)."


Yes, this is true as well.

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fik
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Posted: 26th May 2009 23:18
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Quote: "Correct me if I'm wrong, the next number of poly's is 6 right?"

It depends on what you class as a poly. If You mean triangle then I would agree. But if you mean Planar poly of any amount of vertex's then a pyramid is 5 polys.
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David Gervais
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Posted: 26th May 2009 23:42 Edited at: 26th May 2009 23:44
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Well, to argue my side of this,.. I would not consider a plane to be 3d, rather it represents a 2d surface in a 3d space. (I did say "ie: a solid object") in my humble opinion to be a true '3D' object it needs width, length AND depth. or however you want to call a representation of 'volume in a 3d space'. I disagree that 0.00000001 thickness for a plane constitutes 'depth or volume'

If you want to argue this then I'll go so far as to say the .jpg bitmap sample I posted in the first post is actually a 3D image, since all the objects and environment shown in this image is made up of 'real 3D objects' so there!

P.S. by poly I mean a surface made up of 3 points joined by 3 edges filled with a surface.. if that's what you call a triangle then we mean the same thing. (If I say 6 and you say half a dozen and a third person says it's actually the square root of 36, I can find a million other ways to call it the same thing differently.)

Ready for the next set?.. brb in a few min..

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David Gervais
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Posted: 27th May 2009 00:10 Edited at: 27th May 2009 00:14
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Here goes the 6 ploy count ( or 6 tri's, or 6 surface) set for your discussion..



aside from the pyramid shape there is a new shape made of 2 units of the first sample placed back to back (or end to end) to form a 6 sided diamond-like shape, and the 'common shape' I eluded to was the shape of a kite or shield. I'll be doing a UV mapped version of this as a shield.

Next batch will be 8 poly models, any guess as to what shapes can be made with 8 poly's?

to be continued..

Cheers!

EDIT: added the zip with the models!

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David Gervais
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Posted: 27th May 2009 19:08
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as promised here is an example of the kite shape UV mapped as a shield..



.x file and texture is attached..

P.S. No ideas on what the 8 poly shape will be? I can only think of one.

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 27th May 2009 21:32
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Quote: "I would not consider a plane to be 3d, rather it represents a 2d surface in a 3d space. (I did say "ie: a solid object") in my humble opinion to be a true '3D' object it needs width, length AND depth. or however you want to call a representation of 'volume in a 3d space'. I disagree that 0.00000001 thickness for a plane constitutes 'depth or volume'"


And why not? If you take a plane and cut it in half to get a poly, are you saying that's 2D as well? Poly's are the basic building blocks of 3D. Dig deeper and you find that they are made up of vertices that exist along 3 axis. The very fact that you can make a plane in 3D space constitutes as 3D. Without the 3rd axis, you couldn't do it. It would show up as a background image in your viewport or something.



Quote: "If you want to argue this then I'll go so far as to say the .jpg bitmap sample I posted in the first post is actually a 3D image"


That's a fallacy if I saw one Your browser is a completely different coordinate system that within a 3D Program. Of course it would be a 2d image. It's a screenshot. Wouldn't be 3D at all.

Sorry to consume your thread with this, I just find it really interesting. If you like, I will make a new thread about this else where. I'm interested on how the debate continues.

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David Gervais
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Posted: 27th May 2009 23:01
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In response to this I'm talking about models, the minimum number of polys needed to make a solid 3d model is 4. Yes, a poly alone is a 'building block' to make 3d objects and as you state 2 polys makes a plane. As you know planes can be used to make ground, water, sky, walls and probably other nifty 3d 'items' I just would not class them as 'models'. A sprite is just a plane locked to the camera, I consider a sprite a 2d object. Are you going to tell me that once the 2d plane is unlocked and no longer bound to the camera it is considered a true 3d object and qualifies as a 3D model?

I'll agree planes and single polys are 3D objects, and they are an integral part of 3D programming. But models they are not.

To quote part of my original post that started this.. "From what I understand, 4 ploy's is the lowest number that can be used to make a 3D shape (with no open faces, ie a solid object)" I guess now in hindsight it should have said the following..

"From what I understand, 4 ploy's is the lowest number that can be used to make a 3D model (with no open faces, ie a solid object)"

Cheers!

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 27th May 2009 23:29
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Ah, roger that. Forgot about that

Proceed

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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David Gervais
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Posted: 28th May 2009 01:32 Edited at: 28th May 2009 20:23
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Ok, 8 poly shapes/models.. here are some samples that I thought up..



A nice shape for a prism don't you think?



also, a roof, make one edge flat and it can be a ramp, narrow it down and angle an edge and you got a nice wing shape.

Can anyone think of another shape with 8 polys? Feel free to post your ideas.

I'm not sure of any shape with 10 polys, if I can't think of any I might have to jump to 12 polys or more. What do you think?

Cheers!

Edit: The only shape I could think of for 10 poly count is this..



Looks like I'm gonna have to jump to 12 poly/tri models next.

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David Gervais
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Posted: 29th May 2009 19:28
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..and now, we arrive at 12 poly's, aka 12 Tri's, This is the most widely used basic shape in 3D modeling, ladies and gentilmen I present you the cube/box shape.



In this quick sample I give you a basic cube and show how changing the dimensions and adding a UV map can turn it into a common recognizable shape/object. ( I attached the wood shelf/plank .x file and texture map for your use and abuse.)

I'm going to pause at this wonderful 12 poly shape and make a bunch of UV mapped and hopefully useful objects for your enjoyment.

Please if you can think of an interesting 'object' that falls into the 12 poly frame let me know and I'll see about making your idea an actual model.

Cheers!

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David Gervais
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Posted: 30th May 2009 17:38
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Hmmm, this thread got really quiet really fast. Maybe I can wake people up with this post..

In keeping with the current 12 poly count, as an example of what type of simple things can be made, here is a scrabble board .x model with a 1024x1024 texture map. Along with all the individual letter tiles and a blank tile. For your enjoyment. (attached)

Oh yes a nifty sample pic would be nice..



Come on people, what cube/box shaped items can you think of? Don't make me talk to myself, that drives me crazy!!

Cheers!

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djmaster
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Posted: 30th May 2009 18:45
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Box objects hmmm,a box,a computer,an old pc screen,a cd box.

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David Gervais
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Posted: 30th May 2009 20:20
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How about a simple Red Brick, texture and .x model attached..



Cheers!

P.S. anyone care to test this brick in FPS Creator for me please? I'm wondering if it works.

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David Gervais
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Posted: 30th May 2009 22:07
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Using the scrabble board model, I made a new texture for a Chess/Checker board. I'll be making more old board game textures too. The textures for the game boards will all be 1024x1024.



zip with the .x model and new texture is attached.

Cheers!

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David Gervais
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Posted: 31st May 2009 02:34
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I'm trying to make these samples and models as good as possible, some feedback might help... (take me off ignore please! LoL)

Some gold bars anyone?



In the attached zip there is also silver and platinum bar models and textures.

Cheers!

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Phosphoer
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Posted: 31st May 2009 02:47
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Textures are quite nice Well done! I've been glancing at this thread each day and I like how it's progressing, I may start adding some examples of my own if that's ok with you ^^.

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David Gervais
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Posted: 31st May 2009 04:49
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Sure join the fun,.. I still want to explore this 12 poly stage more, it's such a common shape that I have a bunch of ideas and upgraded versions of old ideas I want to flush out.

Cheers!

P.S. I like how the Box-Bot in your signature image fits in this stage of the discussion, made up of what looks all box shapes.

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JLMoondog
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Posted: 1st Jun 2009 04:56
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I had some fun with your bricks and some physics.

Download Animation:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/kt0zjqk2mrk/brickcrazy.rar


http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=151107&b=8&p=0
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The crazy
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Posted: 1st Jun 2009 06:15 Edited at: 1st Jun 2009 06:16
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Was playing around with this idea, making random shapes and this one reminded me of some stargate ship (sorry not sure which one)

Tried to throw a texture on it to get my idea across more but meh

6 tris

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Azunaki
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Posted: 1st Jun 2009 06:56
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it looks like the cargo ships ghoold (no idea how to spell it)
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 1st Jun 2009 08:48
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A die, ( Another 12 poly model ).



The model, textures, and normal map are attached.

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David Gervais
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Posted: 1st Jun 2009 16:08 Edited at: 1st Jun 2009 19:10
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Nice simple models, I like them, and the ship does remind me of the gua'uld cargo ship, nice one..

Here is a zip with all the parts to make a 'Sorry' type game. I called this one "Oh No!" lol. The board with high rez 1024x1024 texture, play pieces and a dice model are included. Here is the standard 'DeG' sample teaser..



Cheers!

P.S. Phosphoer, great minds think alike, now people have your classic white dice and my marble one. good job.

P.P.S. to add a little spice, here's a link to an old thread of mine where I posted some other 12 poly models..

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=85258&b=3

Including a crate, color cubes, deck of cards, dominoes etc.

Cheers v2.0

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Azunaki
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 02:10
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....um and aren't those 6 poly models or am i confused on what exactly a poly is (to my understanding it is basically the sides...)
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BMacZero
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 02:14
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He's counting in triangles .

Lots of free media here! Keep it coming



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Azunaki
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 02:50
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ok that's what i was thinking he might have been doing....
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stevebrit
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 07:10
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Thanks to David gervais for this thread. It's very interesting and also nice that a moderator is willing to spend time helping us guys .

I wonder if anyone can help me with how get 6 different images onto a 3d cube, one on each side of course !!!!

i have been told to modify UV's but i do not understand what this all means...

I have asked this before and get info on use this or use that,
I would love a short example that would really help me to progress with a game idea i have thats held up cos i dont know how do that.

I mentioned this because i saw the 3d dice that someone had put on here. Basically i want to be able to have cubes with different letters on each side, but need to alter them according to the games needs.

Any help would be appreciated

Regards : - steve

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The crazy
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Steve: I'm sure there's an easier way to do this, but the only way I can think of right now to do what you're saying: Add a joint for each face and assign it. Make every face have the same uv coordinates (ie just make the face stretch to the entire uv space) then in code, perhaps use some kind of texture limb command? I'm not much of a programmer so I really don't know if that command exists, but something like that?
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 08:45
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You could use multitexturing to accomplish this nicely. I couldn't get it to work quite right in DB, but it displays properly in DirectX viewer. I attached a file which you can mess around with.

It's a cube, which has 6 uv maps, one for each face. If you edit the FaceX.png images, it will change what images display on the cube.

The other way to accomplish this would be to have one UV map for the whole cube, and have a version for each possible combination of face images. I don't know what exactly you want to do with this cube, so I don't know if that's realistic.

Hope that helps

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stevebrit
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Firstly thanks guys for your help on this problem.

Basically i want to be able to have a cubes with 6 individual letters on A~Z. To be able to rotate the cubes up and down or side to side. Of course in that situation some of the letter images would be upside down so would have to be rotated in that face before it is rotated to face forwards. So when that face becomes visible all it looks the right way around......

Yes i know its gonna be fairly complex working out the correct orientation of the faces but thats the fun of programming !!!

To be able to do that i need to be able to

1 :- have a different image on each face.
2 :- be able to rotate any required face image.

It seems i have part of the answer with being able to use a different image on each face. I feel i am getting towards solving my problem.

Crazy your idea i am looking into about using limbs.

Thanks to all for help on this issue, its so nice to know that when you get in a sticky spot there are folks out there who are willing to help out.

Regards :- Steve

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Scraggle
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 10:48
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Only just found this thread and read the debate about whether or not a single polygon or a plain is considered a 3D object.
I agree with David that a plain is the building block of a 3D model but not a model in its own right. In much the same way that a brick is the building block of a wall, but a brick alone could not be considered a wall.

I don't know how far you are planning on taking this David, but it will certainly be interesting as the poly count increases and the number of possible shapes increases with it.



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David Gervais
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 14:00
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Interesting problem with how to place the letters the only thing I can think of is to manipulate the texture bitmap. Or build the texture map using sprites..



I have the beginnings of an idea, but I think I'm missing something in just how to explain it. (mainly because the texture map doesn't actually move as illustrated in the middle sample) but bear with me as I try to explain my thoughts.

In the above sample the cube would be made of 58x58 pixel sprites, you stamp them on the texture bitmap as illustrated. then when you rotate left (in the middle sample you see how the top and bottom sprite would be in the wrong orientation) you redraw/restamp sprite a and c and re apply the texture to the cube.

But it might be that by using this technique you will have to re-orient the cube to it's original position (ie rotate it back 90deg to the right) apply the new texture and show it. (all in the blink of an eye or during a sync refresh so the player does not see the change)

does this sound like a possible solution? using 26 letter sprites to build the texture map on the fly as it were?

Just a thought, I didn't think it all the way through, but you guys can figure out the mechanics of this I'm sure.

Cheers!

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David Gervais
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 18:27
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Ok, one more 12 poly/tri sample and then I'll kick up the poly count.. a roof shape/texture.



.x and texture map is attached.

Cheers!

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stevebrit
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Many thanks David for your input the cube/face problem.
Your idea is looking like one possible solution.

Do you or anyone know about this GDK function about which i know nothing .. If someone could explain it to me i would really appreciate that. Looked on the forums but not been able to find info on that function.

dbSetSpriteTextureCoord ( int iSprite, int iVertex, float fU, float fV )

Seems like it could be useful in some way for altering faces or something ???.

If anyone has other ideas about how to solve my cube problem please give me your ideas.

David thanks for some wonderful models you are putting on here
I love them and i know others will find them very useful also.

Regards :- Steve

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David Gervais
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2009 17:47
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While thinking of ideas for 16 poly models I assembled this bookshelf using the wood plank model/texture I posted earlier..



attached is the zip with the .x and texture map.

Cheers!

P.S. would anyone care to play Ikea: Some assembly required? take that plank model, stretch, rotate, copy, and assemble any other items suited to it's simple form? a table? chair? bench? taller bookshelf etc?

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dab
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I like it, but Wings3D nor Milkshape import .x xD

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David Gervais
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here is the first 16 Poly/Triangles model.. I'm in the doghouse now for posting this..



zip with the .x model and texture map attached.

Cheers!

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Dar13
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Quote: "I like it, but Wings3D nor Milkshape import .x xD "

There's a static model importer called DirectX mesh tools under the "Tools" tab for Milkshape3D.

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