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Geek Culture / Video games played with the human brain... good idea?

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Lonnehart
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 09:06
I've seen all these technology shows that claim that one day, we'll be directly plugged into our computers and be entertained by our media that way. Think of it... the movie/game is projected directly into your mind and you control everything with but a thought....

I don't like this idea. We'll literally transform into couch potatoes and desk fries if that happens. Have we gotten so lazy that we don't want to be manipulating a controller that's just a pound or less in weight in our hands? Is hand-eye coordination really that energy consuming that we should just be literally plugged into our games? It's already getting bad; we don't have to get up to pour on our game consoles anymore, and we're moving towards a direction where we don't have to physically get up and insert that game disc/cartridge into the console... We just download our games instead!

Anyways, what do you think?

In the beginning there was nothing. There'll be nothing in the end...
Skynet Games
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 10:54
Please provide a link to these tech sites. I wanna see them, for sure

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Dazzag
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 10:55 Edited at: 9th Jun 2009 10:56
I went to a gadget exhibition the other day where they had this game where you wore these head bands and tried to out concentrate an opponent by making a ball roll towards them. Think fake Russian telekinesis video and you will get a good idea. Looked like fun, but personally think it's too open to accidentally thinking about other things (Yes, almost beating level 9, just got to concentrate on destroying the final dark lord... Hmmm, hamburgers... rats, close one that, carefull... oooh, boobs, mmm... damn it! Start level again...).



Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."

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Lonnehart
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 11:04
Well, this was all on TV. I don't know the name of the Discovery Channel show (beyond 2000 or something, I think), but there are a lot of shows that talk about technology melding mind with machine. Heck, there's now a robot controlled by rat brain cells!

In the beginning there was nothing. There'll be nothing in the end...
Slive
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 12:43
Apparently some EEG mumbo jumbo is being put into effect and companies first developed it for people with limited movement(disabled or the elderly) I agree that this will definitely turn us into mindless zombies and soon we will have sewer rats nesting in our grey matter, just for warmth, there will be nothing tasty left...

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David R
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 15:28
Quote: "We'll literally transform into couch potatoes and desk fries if that happens. Have we gotten so lazy that we don't want to be manipulating a controller that's just a pound or less in weight in our hands? Is hand-eye coordination really that energy consuming that we should just be literally plugged into our games?"


A controller is a barrier. It places limits on what can be done in a game, and it can have serious medical consequences (RSI, carpel tunnel, tons of other limb/muscle issues).

Your mind however... has no barriers. You don't get "repetitive thought" syndrome, so I don't really so what the problems could actually be. It would be a bit odd watching someone play a game like that - but other than that, it wouldn't be any more lazy than how people play already. And hand eye coordination is still there - if you're applying this kind of control to games like we have now, then you still need to coordinate between your thought and the action on screen.

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lazerus
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 16:31
Theirs a left and right game

Its like pong but you must think to move your left or right arm/hand.
BUT
you cant actually move your hands. this was orignally developd to find the casue of phantom pain in amputies. now its used to help stimulate brain activity and increase mental stammina.

cant find the links atm


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Commander in Chief
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 16:39
I think that this opens a door to a major flaw. Having man directly connected to machine like that, it could potentially allow life-threatening "viruses" of sorts.

If we get to the point where the computer directly interfaces with the brain, so that you don't even need to look at a screen, there could be problems. What if it just sent images directly to your brain? What if they develop an equivalent of the "vibration" function on your controller? It would have a prickling sort of pain, barely even noticeable--but someone could easily take control of that.

It leaves a wide range of possibilities for major flaws and security issues.


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MSon
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 16:56 Edited at: 9th Jun 2009 17:01
I've seen them hats before, I made a post a few years ago about one where they where releasing it, it cost somethink like 150 pounds, I can see the benefit to people who are completley paralised as it will allow them more self reliance, (say if it was linked to a moterised wheelchair), but for games it would be cool, they can be used as joysticks, if i had the money, then i wouldn't mind combining one of these with the expensive 3D Glasses you can get for PC.

Thay also made an interface with one of these to control that Asimo robot, (the one from Honda)

I saw that documentary on Discovery about the Rat Brain controled robot, I thought that was pritty cool, and showed the computing capabilities of brain matter, (external from a living organisam) to control a robot or other electronical device.

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JLMoondog
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 18:25
My dad is an aerospace engineer, and worked on various 'projects'(that even I'm not aloud to know about) for the government. About 25 years ago his friend showed him a device that aloud you to move a point of light on one of those frequency machines with your mind. You strapped on these sensors to your head and you just had to concentrate on where you wanted the light to go.

I wouldn't be surprised if this technology was highly more advanced now then what we have seen.

MSon
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 18:35
Check This Site

You can reserve one of these helmets if you want one, they did at one point have an SDK you could download to test its capabilities in different languages, so I guess there would be some way to use it in DarkBasic, That would be quite cool.

Everyone Be Cool, You, Be Cool.
IanM
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 19:55
If someone buys me one, I'll write a plug-in for free!

Robin
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 22:11
I believe not too long ago there was someone who had a demo working with a mind control headset thing and DB...I'll look for the link

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 22:12 Edited at: 9th Jun 2009 22:13
There was a virtual reality glove plugin.

Tom J
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 23:21
Quote: "I believe not too long ago there was someone who had a demo working with a mind control headset thing and DB...I'll look for the link"


Yeah, there was something called "Air Heads" which used a brainwave scanner thing.

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Robin
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Posted: 10th Jun 2009 00:00
Ah yeah - that was it:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=142874&b=5

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Herakles
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Posted: 10th Jun 2009 01:34
The thought of plugging my head into a game is absolutely terrifying. What if there's a bug in the game?

"Yay, I just beat level 13! But there's a bug and the game won't let me get to level 14. Now I'm in a game induced coma!"

People already throw away their money for games that they may or may not enjoy, should we really start throwing away our brains too?

Swordfight! My cheesy little first game!
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=147808&b=36
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 10th Jun 2009 01:43
To read a brain is a totally matter than to write one. To write one is a physical process involving the rearrangement of neurones. You can apply electrical stimuli but you'd have to be stupid not to include hardware limiting circuits on voltage and ampage to prevent any blowups.

n008
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Posted: 10th Jun 2009 04:25
The electrodes sense brain activity, they don't interface with it...

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Fallout
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Posted: 10th Jun 2009 18:17
Apparently there was a baby born in Chernobyl with a USB port in his head. Strange but true. Apparently he doesn't need to eat and can be trickle charged on 5v.

Mr Z
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Posted: 10th Jun 2009 18:50
That this would be possible I do not doubt, I am more concerned with the implications of it.

How would it work? Would we just messure the activity in the brain or interfere? If we interfere, where does the limit go? What happens if "we catch a virus"? Would an EMP damage us? And so on.

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
n008
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Posted: 10th Jun 2009 19:35
The hat has electrodes in it, which are tuned to sense certain brainwave patters and react accordingly. It's very much a passive system. Besides, neurons can't be 'written to'-- They're cells, not silicon chips :s

"I have faith, that I shall win the race, even though I have no legs, and am tied to a tree." ~Mark75
Herakles
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Posted: 11th Jun 2009 01:26
I still don't like the idea of a machine being able to read my mind. My thoughts are for me to think, and I don't want anybody or anything else to know them.

Swordfight! My cheesy little first game!
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=147808&b=36
puppyofkosh
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Posted: 11th Jun 2009 02:31
Quote: "Apparently there was a baby born in Chernobyl with a USB port in his head. Strange but true. Apparently he doesn't need to eat and can be trickle charged on 5v."


Link?
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 11th Jun 2009 02:45
Quote: "Quote: "Apparently there was a baby born in Chernobyl with a USB port in his head. Strange but true. Apparently he doesn't need to eat and can be trickle charged on 5v."

Link?"


Joke?

n008
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Posted: 11th Jun 2009 03:27
Quote: "I still don't like the idea of a machine being able to read my mind. My thoughts are for me to think, and I don't want anybody or anything else to know them."


They can't read your thoughts... They can just detect them and GUESS what you are thinking. i.e. that what you're looking at is what you want. There's this neat program that allows people to type who would otherwise need assitance in doing so.

What they do is, they have a monitor with an on-screen keyboard type deal going on, and characters I highlighted randomly. To work it, you have to concentrate on each character, and when you see your character highlighted, the electrode hat senses that the current character highlighted is the one you want, and types it for you. It's actually pretty strenuous to work with.

"I have faith, that I shall win the race, even though I have no legs, and am tied to a tree." ~Mark75
Fallout
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Posted: 11th Jun 2009 11:34
Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Apparently there was a baby born in Chernobyl with a USB port in his head. Strange but true. Apparently he doesn't need to eat and can be trickle charged on 5v."

Link?"

Joke?"


Just do a google search. I'm sure you'll find it!!

*some time later*

Keep looking! It's there.

Mr Z
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Posted: 11th Jun 2009 11:49 Edited at: 11th Jun 2009 11:50
Quote: "The hat has electrodes in it, which are tuned to sense certain brainwave patters and react accordingly. It's very much a passive system. Besides, neurons can't be 'written to'-- They're cells, not silicon chips :s"


Never said it did, but it is possible to manipulate the brain, even if it is not done in this particular case. Personally I have no issues with this hat, if it is just electrodes that messure brain activity without actually doing anything else.

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
puppyofkosh
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Posted: 11th Jun 2009 14:07
Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Apparently there was a baby born in Chernobyl with a USB port in his head. Strange but true. Apparently he doesn't need to eat and can be trickle charged on 5v."

Link?"

Joke?"


Yes?
Herakles
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Posted: 12th Jun 2009 02:24
Quote: "They can't read your thoughts... They can just detect them and GUESS what you are thinking"


Being able to guess a person's thoughts is just a less effective version of actually reading them. How long until they upgrade the technology and make it so that the machine can actually read your mind? Who would use such technology, and what would they use it for? To me, it is a thoroughly disturbing thought.

Swordfight! My cheesy little first game!
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=147808&b=36
Lonnehart
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Posted: 12th Jun 2009 05:15
I'd rather not have technology that's so developed that it could read your mind, even if it would only be used to play games. There's a ton of potential abuse that could occur (like maybe the "Thought Police")...

In the beginning there was nothing. There'll be nothing in the end...
Vathelokai
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Posted: 12th Jun 2009 05:34
Seriously, this technology is not really a new thing. I remember video from the 70s of people using something similar to measure brainwaves. They attached it to an on/off switch which they used to turn an electric toy train on and off.

The electricity of all your bodily systems emanates from your body. The energy has been studied, and no one seems to be able to find though patterns in it; thus, reading a mind based on it is pretty unreasonable (But that could change soon, see below). It's about as reasonable as telling someones health based entirely on their body heat.


The first functional neural implant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-computer_interface#Prominent_research_successes) was developed about 10 years ago. If you don't feel like reading the wiki, then I'll quote you some.

"The DARPA [branch of USA Department of Defense] budget for the fiscal year 2009 to 2010 includes $4 million for a program named Silent Talk, which aims to "allow user-to-user communication on the battlefield without the use of vocalized speech through analysis of neural signals.""

So yes, all of your fears are true. Please note that this is the same way that your parents felt when the internet came along.

As for this device, it's nifty, but nothing special. Check out this guy who wired up something similar to Twitter with (http://www.coolest-gadgets.com/20090422/twitter-telepathy/).
Venge
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Posted: 12th Jun 2009 05:45
Haven't you seen Lawnmower Man? Of course this is a good idea.


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Butter fingers
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Posted: 12th Jun 2009 11:58
Hey, I've been working with EEG and BCI stuff for a while, and we're currently working with NeuroSky, which is a mind reading headset thingy.

To clear up a few arguements:

1) The headset cannot read thoughts. It can just read brainwaves. THere is a huge difference. It knows if you are relaxed, concentrated , frustrated, anxious, sad etc, but it can read why you are sad.

2) Similarly, it can only use predictive responses. For example, it doesn't know if you're thinking "Move Left", it only knows if say, you are concentrating on the left side of the screen.

3) It's a one way system. The headset reads the eletrostatic signals being set off between Neurons in the brain. It then parses these through various algorithms to remove "noise" created by eletrostatic signals in the face muscles and so on. There is alot more going on in the brain than just eletrostatic though. A thought is made up of chemical transfers and hormones as well as the straight neuron response, so as of yet there is no way for it to make you think a certain thing.

I think we need to just get over the whole "is it going to kill me and/or steal all my childhood memories", arguement, and start thinking about how we can change games with this.

Airheads, which we made almost 4 months back is an example of how NOT to make a BCI (brain computer interface) based game.

The mind is by definition quite abstract, and as such, linking you brain to the game as a controller is a really bad idea. As much as you may be able to concentrate on the balloon until it inflates, it's quite frustrating getting the little man off the floor.

I personally see BCI as a way to make existing game play better. Imagine something like gears of war, still played with a controller, but your weapon accuracy is directly linked to your mental focus. THe speed that you bleed and lose heath is linked to stress and anxiety levels. Games could become much deeper in the way they deal with the link between the player avatar and the way the world behaves around them.

We've developed a number of different applications around the NeuroSky hardware, and I'll be showcasing some of them soon!

IanM, way ahead of you I'm affraid, we've already written the plugin!

I want robotic legs.
Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 12th Jun 2009 21:50
Quote: "Being able to guess a person's thoughts is just a less effective version of actually reading them. How long until they upgrade the technology and make it so that the machine can actually read your mind? Who would use such technology, and what would they use it for? To me, it is a thoroughly disturbing thought."

I can't help thinking that, even if this is possible, the US military is going to get there long before games do. Protesting about this sort of thing in games is, I'm pretty sure, not going to prevent this sort of thing from happening, if it *can* happen.

Quote: "Have we gotten so lazy that we don't want to be manipulating a controller that's just a pound or less in weight in our hands? Is hand-eye coordination really that energy consuming that we should just be literally plugged into our games?"

If you have a controller, why have a keyboard? Or a joystick? Or a plastic guitar? Or speakers, or music with a quality that's better than Midi? We don't *need* this technology but it will improve the experience and allow for new, more elegant forms of gameplay.

Quote: ""Yay, I just beat level 13! But there's a bug and the game won't let me get to level 14. Now I'm in a game induced coma!""

While that is a very cool idea for a sci-fi story, your keyboard doesn't explode if there's a bug in the game. And if this headset did malfunction (I'm thinking of it freezing up like a keyboard) you could just take it off. It's only reading brain signals, not putting you in a virtual world.

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Grandma
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Posted: 12th Jun 2009 22:00
Quote: "Haven't you seen Lawnmower Man? Of course this is a good idea."

Thank you, I've been trying to remember the name for the movie that messed up my childhood for some time now.

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 12th Jun 2009 22:02
Didn't read the rest of the thread, but:

You seem to think that holding a controller and moving thumbs, and actually getting up to put in game discs is much more physically exerting than just thinking things, but the truth is, the physical exertion from those kind of activities is probably so insignificant that there would really be no difference in controlling using a controller or your mind.


Herakles
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Posted: 13th Jun 2009 02:31
Quote: "It knows if you are relaxed, concentrated , frustrated, anxious, sad etc, but it can read why you are sad."


We already have technology that can do that: EKG machines. You can't hook someone up to an EKG machine without his consent, but how long is it going to be before the technology of this headset is developed further so that it can be used remotely (i.e. without needing the person's consent)?

Quote: "2) Similarly, it can only use predictive responses. For example, it doesn't know if you're thinking "Move Left", it only knows if say, you are concentrating on the left side of the screen."


If it can already know that you're focused on the left side of the screen, it's only a matter of time before they make it so that it can predict what you're going to do further (like whether you're going to move left or shoot left or whatever). After that, they'll develop it further and further and further and it'll pretty much be able to read minds.

Quote: "I think we need to just get over the whole "is it going to kill me and/or steal all my childhood memories", arguement, and start thinking about how we can change games with this."


Maybe we should think of everything this technology is capable of before blinding ourselves to everything but what it can do for games. It would be naive to say that the only people who would use this technology would be game developers.

So, I'm not worried by this particular headset as it is now, I'm worried by what the technology it uses could become and who would use it.

Swordfight! My cheesy little first game!
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=147808&b=36
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 13th Jun 2009 02:34
Quote: "can be used remotely"


Don't be daft.

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Herakles
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Posted: 13th Jun 2009 03:29
Quote: "Don't be daft."


Don't be naive. Unless you're one of the engineers who designed the thing, how do you know that it can't be made to be used remotely?

Swordfight! My cheesy little first game!
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=147808&b=36
Mr Z
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Posted: 13th Jun 2009 03:47
Quote: "Don't be naive. Unless you're one of the engineers who designed the thing, how do you know that it can't be made to be used remotely?"


It can“t because we simply do not have the technology to scan objects remotely the way and with the detail this would demand. That will take some time for us to come up with, and I do not see it come in any near future.

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
Vathelokai
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Posted: 13th Jun 2009 07:50
Quote: "Heracles:
Maybe we should think of everything this technology is capable of before blinding ourselves to everything but what it can do for games. It would be naive to say that the only people who would use this technology would be game developers."

I repeat, this is exactly what your parents were saying when the internet became available.

Personally, I know we will have some sort of mind reading technology in the future. I know people will abuse it, because that's what people do.

With the internet, creepy porn-addicted 500 pound African scam artists are trying to sell you aphrodisiacs to your toddlers. Amazingly, since the technology is open to anyone, we can just use the same internet tools to stop them.

The same will happen with reading brain waves. The technology is and will be public. If you practice (i.e. play games) with a mind reading "joy stick" then you will know exactly how to make the mind reading fail, in the same way you can just put down your controller.

Later, when we have people beaming signals into your brain, you will be playing games that do the same thing. Thus, when some Cambodian transvestite tries to implant in your mind an intense desire to catapult small children into orbit, you will ignore it; the same way you ignore the sound of traffic, or commercials, or pop-up ads.


New tools. Same world.
MSon
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Posted: 13th Jun 2009 10:19 Edited at: 13th Jun 2009 10:37
Quote: "I repeat, this is exactly what your parents were saying when the internet became available."

I agree with this, These Headsets dont read your memories, they only read things like motor functions, and mood, My Nan beleaved TV and Computers corrupted the mind, If she ever tried them, then she would have proberley changed her mind and accepted them.

I dont know how true this is, But i remember when i was in primary school, (Many Many years ago when computers where fairley new), and a teacher said Monitors where known to be bad for some medical conditions, but that people simply accepted them because they understood the benefit to seciety that computers could provide in the future, To me thats what things like these headsets can do, I would assume there is increased responce time, and with practice, you may be able to do some computer tasks much quicker with a Headset, (Or so i would assume).

EDIT: I've just found where you can download the free version of the SDK and API's for Indipendent developers
http://emotiv.com/corporate/1_0/1_5.htm
There is also a pay version which offers more capabilities for $500

Everyone Be Cool, You, Be Cool.
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 13th Jun 2009 12:52
Quote: "Don't be naive. Unless you're one of the engineers who designed the thing, how do you know that it can't be made to be used remotely?"


Because it's a HEADSET. It needs CONTACT. There's no such thing as a non-contact EEG because the energy levels are far too small to sense from an inch away. They just get lost in the noise.

lazerus
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Posted: 13th Jun 2009 14:36
Quote: "Quote: "Don't be naive. Unless you're one of the engineers who designed the thing, how do you know that it can't be made to be used remotely?"

Because it's a HEADSET. It needs CONTACT. There's no such thing as a non-contact EEG because the energy levels are far too small to sense from an inch away. They just get lost in the noise."


your forgetting the large amount of static in the air aswell, white noise i belive its called?

This task would be physically impossible with our current tech.
In persective...

Unless we use ALOT of allgorithims to filter out the noise for each specific nano event and then be able to specifcally choose a single target, that could be in a room with, i dont know? lets say three people, distinguish and then track this person. what if he enters the street? thousands of people then to filter out, and your forgetting a very important thing aswell, waves travel like a stone in a pond, yes you can limit it but it will still spread out.

In other words what your saying can never work.

sorry to be a downer


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 13th Jun 2009 14:48
The idea of being able to read a brain's thoughts wirelessly is as silly as the idea of being able to know what a CPU is doing by sticking an antenna next to it. Sure, you know if it's doing something and judging by the kind of noise maybe you'll know how hard it's thinking but as for actually knowing exactly what machine code is running through it is silliness.

David R
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Posted: 13th Jun 2009 15:34
Quote: "The idea of being able to read a brain's thoughts wirelessly is as silly as the idea of being able to know what a CPU is doing by sticking an antenna next to it."


Err... neither of those things are very silly at all. I assume you haven't seen the experiment where you can eavesdrop on the data transmitted by wired keyboards without physical contact?

I reckon both of those things are possible - and if not already possible, will be possible very soon.

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lazerus
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Posted: 13th Jun 2009 16:28
Quote: "I assume you haven't seen the experiment where you can eavesdrop on the data transmitted by wired keyboards without physical contact?"


Link?

if its the ########
arc then that using the light from a lcd screen and records the frequencies emitted, run it through an algorithim then you have thier screen.


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David R
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Posted: 13th Jun 2009 16:35 Edited at: 13th Jun 2009 16:38
Quote: "Link?"


It's certainly early days, and needs algorithmic assistance to get the correct data out, but it's still impressive and proof that such things are possible. Maybe not yet on the brain, but considering the brain and nerve impulses etc. use electricity and presumably produce some kind of field effect also (maybe not EM but must surely be something detectable) it's definitely not something that should be instantly dismissed as silly

http://lasecwww.epfl.ch/keyboard/

Quote: "Our approach was to acquire the signal directly from the antenna and to work on the whole captured electromagnetic spectrum.

We found 4 different ways (including the Kuhn attack) to fully or partially recover keystrokes from wired keyboards at a distance up to 20 meters, even through walls. We tested 12 different wired and wireless keyboard models bought between 2001 and 2008 (PS/2, USB and laptop). They are all vulnerable to at least one of our 4 attacks.
"


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