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Program Announcements / Easy Tank

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heartbone
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Posted: 18th Aug 2003 13:10 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2003 02:18
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Want to see what a "professional" can do with DarkBASIC in just under 3 weeks?

Easy Tank v1.0 5.00MB zip



Run it and familiarize yourself with my new virtual world.
I'd like to know about any bughs or problems which you may encounter.
Your suggestions for improvement are encouraged.
Your criticism will be studied.
Your praise will be enjoyed.

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lcfcfan
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Posted: 19th Aug 2003 22:00
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Pretty cool heartbone i take it you will be making AI for the other tank so it hunts you down?

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Rob K
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Posted: 19th Aug 2003 23:17
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Interesting.

Suggestions for improvement (other than AI).

1. Sliding collision

2. Destructable scenery

3. When you turn, the turning speed suddenly jumps after a duration, I think it should gradually speed up.

This has really got me thinking though - this isn't much at surface level for 65 hours work, of course this isn't yours or DarkBASIC's fault, it is just that there are SO many tasks required to produce even a very simple game, even with a complete 3D engine provided. You have collision, movement, menus, landscape / terrain, skyboxes, explosions and sfx, projectile tracking etc.

As powerful as DarkBASIC Professional is, I'm beginning to think that speed of creation needs to be addressed more as well as ease of creation.

I think that although such development can be very rewarding, many people would be turned off by such lengthy times (especially as most could never commit more than 10 or maybe 20 hours per week). I'm wondering what could be done to lessen this. It will always be a long process, as time is the price to pay for flexibility, so I'm wondering if anywone else has any thoughts on speeding up game creation. Personally I rely on an existing scattered library of DB code which I can use and modify.


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heartbone
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Posted: 20th Aug 2003 00:41 Edited at: 20th Aug 2003 00:49
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lcfcfan Thanks. Yes there will be two levels of AI,
GREEN (defensive emphasis) RED (offensive emphasis)


Rob K I thought that amount of time was quick. I do not know of another high level language that could be used to create this in that amount of coding time. A significant part of that programming time was doing graphics design ~12 hours and under an hour on audio engineering.

The game characteristics that you desire are inconsistant with the design of the original COMBAT cartridge which was an extremely simple design. You hit a wall, it does not move, you do not move.

You didn't notice it, but the tank turning actually has two jumps in speed. I'll come up with a different method.

The latest beta has a fixed overhead camera view. A two player mode for those of you with joysticks. And several other improvements, but still no AI. Also if you have a joystick with a POV hat check out the support in the program.

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Rob K
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Posted: 20th Aug 2003 00:47 Edited at: 20th Aug 2003 00:51
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65 hours works out to be almost 7 hours a day! - Which is a very lengthy time!

Although sliding collision may be inconsistant with the original game, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't implement it. Is it really a good idea to stick rigidly to the rules of the original game, even if such a simple improvement would make the game more enjoyable? Personally, I don't think so. Ditto gradual turning speed increase (use CURVE VALUE).

Destructable terrain on the other hand, can be done without.


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heartbone
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Posted: 20th Aug 2003 01:01
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Maybe I misunderstand what sliding collision is?
Why would sliding along a wall or barrier be more enjoyable for you?

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lcfcfan
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Posted: 20th Aug 2003 01:27
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depends really what sorta game it is for this i think you could go without sliding collision but if you had a racing game and your car stopped dead if you hit a wall that would be pretty bad.

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Rob K
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Posted: 20th Aug 2003 03:31 Edited at: 20th Aug 2003 12:55
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@Heartbone

Having to reverse if you "snag" a wall can get irritating, and also, it doesn't feel entirely natural for the tank to stick to the wall like glue as it does at the moment. The sliding aspect should be minimal, but there.


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Ermes
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Posted: 20th Aug 2003 12:45
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Sliding collison is better than feel the wall is made of glue, and it's easy program to block your tank when it a wall, harder to program an array's sliding collison...

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heartbone
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 20:32 Edited at: 26th Oct 2003 18:31
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Rob K I respect your opinion. My opinion is that the tank obstacle interaction adds to the game. I hope that this behaviour is not a game breaker for you. I did take your suggestion and implemented Curvevalue into the rotation scheme. I'll post a message as soon as I upload the latest version sometime over the next 36 hours. I am putting the finishing touches on a dozen or so new changes which should finally include simple AI.

Ermes the ease of programming has very little impact on my program design.


The scoring digits have been shrunk since this shot.

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lcfcfan
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 20:50
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does for me

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Ermes
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 02:23
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hum, download it.

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spooky
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 02:48
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Just downloaded an Atari 2600 emulator and 'found' a combat rom for it. Bought back happy memories I can tell you!

I can highly recommend the Z26 emulator. Naturally you need to have the original carts before you download any roms...

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heartbone
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2003 21:21 Edited at: 26th Oct 2003 18:33
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August 23 BETA update:
I've finished the stationary red tank AI (for now I've also added it to the green tank).
I hope to finish the green tank AI this weekend, it is more complex to create AI when there is movement involved.

--------------------------------------
Changes since August 19 beta:

- Centered end of game messages better in overhead view
- Made smaller scoring digits in overhead view
- Added call to SET WINDOW LAYOUT for window and taskbar icons update
- Widened center gap between barriers
- Allowed the overhead view to be activated during battle against AI
- Adjusted window size for WinXP
- Reformed the long outer walls for better texturing on top
- Tweaked wall textures
- Removed ground texture during overhead view
- Fixed the problem which made the debris not appear after hits on enemy when another launch occured before the fireball had finished expanding
- Made shell exhausts look better from the overhead view
- Smoothed turn acceleration by using the CURVEVALUE function
- In setup interface made the up and down keys scroll cursor
- In setup interface made the Enter key start the battle (unless cursor @ EXIT)
- Made the help page available during battles
- Added corner warp sound effect
- Added static (red) AI
- Added disable/enable AI toggle

--------------------
yet todo:
- mobile (green) AI
- title song update
- general source code cleanup



If you find any bugs or have other problems, please post them.

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heartbone
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Posted: 24th Aug 2003 01:37
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Man, this red AI is hard to beat.
No guts, no glory.

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heartbone
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Posted: 27th Aug 2003 08:12
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THE LAST UPDATE UNLESS YOU FIND A PROBLEM.
I knew the AI code would be complicated. I am so relieved that I have "finished" it. There had better be no blow-ups or major problems or I'll be looking for some sturdy rope.

-------------------------------------

Changes since August 23 beta:

- Added green AI
- Tweaked red AI
- Added and managed ruby and emerald colored AI aiming lasers
- Documented AI aiming lasers display toggle
- Allowed hits to be detected but not scored when enemy AI is disabled
- Allowed AI core to detach from tank when enemy AI is disabled
- Re-textured AI core
- Added AI toggle to end of game screen
- Added alternate/regular viewpoint toggle to end of game screen
- Added tank against tank clang
- Tweaked green tank skin
- Ghosted barriers when pass through is active
- Adjusted window size for Win9X
- Updated miscellaneous page

I had no idea how much the lasers would increase the playability until I played with them!



Here is the final Easy Tank setup menu. KISS methodology was used throughout.



One last screen shot.



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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 27th Aug 2003 20:48
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Very fine program!


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heartbone
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 05:02
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TheCodingArea thank you very much.
New beta (August 27th) now available.

Changes since August 26 beta:
---------------------------------------

- Added faster AI (& 2 player) move and spin speeds.
- Added speed selections to setup.
- Increased knockback distance and linked the distance to the enemy speed.
- Decrease number of forward moves when AI #1 is actively avoiding being targeted.
- AI #1 coming out of the twirl after being hit, moves away for a bit.
- Fixed the Is_spin_blocked? test so AI will ignore pass through barriers.

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heartbone
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 11:40 Edited at: 26th Oct 2003 18:32
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August 29th: The last beta update.
-------------------------------------

Major changes since August 27 beta:

- Bugfix: Limited the red AI to 120°/sec turn.
- Bugfix: Placed title graphics higher on setup screen wwhen returning from guide pages
- Hid the mouse pointer in forced fullscreen mode
- Added S key as alternate firing trigger
- Added offscreen enemy direction indicator
- Changed default tank to red, set to battle the easier mobile AI #1
- Added battle recording function
- Added battle playback function
- Added battle playback instructions
- Added matrix of nine fixed viewpoints
- Updated guide sheet about fixed viewpoints
- Updated miscellaneous page

As of this release you can utilize instant replay to observe your opponent's tactics from the enemy perspective or from a fixed camera position.

I can't think of anything else to do with this skin, so I guess that it's finished for now. Time to make the download page. A 4.87 MB zip, it's too big for a floppy disc. Windows® programs sure are huge.

------edit--------
It was too late and my brain was malfunctioning. I totally forgot about making the switch to turn off the instant replay. I just corrected that. Since I had to upload a new beta (August 29, 2003 PM), I replaced some bad code in the green AI so it would not move into the line of fire as much.

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Rob K
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Posted: 30th Aug 2003 16:20
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Heartbone, the new additions make for a much better game


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heartbone
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Posted: 30th Aug 2003 20:31
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Thanks for the thumb up Rob K I am trying to make this the easiest and most enjoyable 2 player tank game yet.

If any of you want to see me do battle against the mobile green AI on the default settings, first you'll need to download the latest beta zip. (August 30th)

You will also need to download the file "EasyTankBattle.wri".
http://members.toast.net/mlc/EasyTankBattle.wri
Put that file in the same folder that contains "EasyTank beta.exe".
Run EasyTank, and then from the setup menu, press the Tab key.

-------------------------------------
Changes since August 29 beta:
- Added saving and reloading of battle review
- Thickened stall walls to reduce display garbage
- Raised camera #5 to see more of the battleground
- Reset the regular and alternate viewpoints to the initial points for battle review

After the replay starts, press F4 to see what I was seeing when I was battling.

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UberTuba
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 00:56
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why is this thread sticky????

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Ermes
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 01:54
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why is this thread sticky????

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Preston C
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 03:46
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because it looks like a great game



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Mattman
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 03:55
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and is a demo of dbpro's ability's

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heartbone
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 07:21
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I made a few more changes since the August 29th beta version.
-------------------------------------------------------
- Displayed score in alternate viewpoint during battle review
- Updated miscellaneous page
- Better integrated the overhead view key
- Added F as another fire trigger
- Make green AI decide to shoot faster on faster levels
- Added game reset
- Now start replay using alternate viewpoint
- Increased AI #1 enemy search from 25° to 45° degree field
- Turned off tank clang with the rest of the sound effects
- Fixed a bug with laser color coordination after tank swap during instant replay.

Unless there are any more suggestions, or problems are found with this August 30th beta, I think that we are looking at the release candidate here.

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David T
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 19:59
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Downloading now.

I'm interested in the first line, "interested in a what a professional can do with DBP?".

You see the boundaries between professional and hobbyist are somewhat blurred. Though it is accepted that you are a professional if you've got a game published, etc. somebody like peter molynuex (sp)? (black and white / populous) could come along, make a rubbsih game in DBP and claim they were a professional.

I'm not disputing your claim to be a professional heartbone, just interested in the issue it raises. A hobbyist could make a game much better than a pro, yet not recieve as much credit.

Will play and report back

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heartbone
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 03:04
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I'm not a game making "professional".
I have been engineering/scientific programmer for a long time.
http://heartbone.com/various/resume.html

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David T
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 12:21
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Oh it was just that the sentece below sort of implied you were a professional game developer:

Quote: "Want to see what a "professional" can do with DarkBASIC in just 1 week?"


Once again i'm not disputing the value of any qualifications etc. just interested about the issue of how amateurs can sometimes better professionals.

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heartbone
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 17:31
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David89 you downloaded the program yesterday. How long is it going to take you to prepare your evaluation report?

I've created the download page for the release version:
http://www.heartbone.com/EasyTank

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David T
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 18:15
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Not long ,However I've been working on something all morning and so haven't had time to go on the forums.

The graphics are OK.

However, the game play is a bit, well, boring. It could do to be slightly faster, and what would make a difference is "wilder" handling on the tank. Maybe adding drift going round corners so you can really "feel" the weight of your tank?

Mentioned already but collision is sticky and while it may work in 2d in 3d it can get a tad annoying.

Maybe you could move the camera further away from the tank and open up the environments? That would make your control seem free-er. At the moment the environment is slightly small.

I think you do well in the style of a game like cel damage - maybe a multiplayer tank deathmatch?

Other than that good.

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heartbone
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2003 03:48
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Bored? Then I've failed. I thought that you would have to play the game for a while to learn the AI before you got bored with it because it was too predictable. Obviously I made it too easy for you to figure out the program so quickly! Personally I find the aggressive red AI extra challenging, so I am impressed with your quick mastery of the game.

I agree with you about the graphics, but the rest?

FrankIy I can't understand the fascination with sliding collision, or how a bigger battlefield would keep you from being bored with this game format. The term glue has been misused, this simulation exhibits infinite friction on the walls. When using this program, you should avoid the walls.

You want faster you say? Did you watch this replay of me playing from last week? http://members.toast.net/mlc/EasyTankBattle.wri How much faster does it need to be?

Sliding like on oil? Well I could do that, but it would not be in keeping with the COMBAT theme. Maybe for another game.

One more thing David89 if you wanted the camera further away from the tank why didn't you put it there? Use the End key.

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David T
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2003 14:09
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I'm sorry if you think you failed because you didn't fail too much, I just thought that if you were to create a successful, addictive 3d tank game then maybe you could consider those points.

When I said it got a bit boring I didn't mean by the AI, I meant with controls and speed in general. I just thought it could do to be a bit more open, faster paced and have a bit of drift with the controls. Game such as mario kart's battle mode have a similar theme, except the tracks tend to be a bit wider and more open.
If a section is only a bit wider than the tank then if you make a mistake with steering could mean you crash into a wall and in those few secodns you could be shot.

I prefer sliding collision, however that's my preference.

A bigger battlefield allows you more room to move, and if the tanks are faster that'll be needed too.

In short:

- Tanks go a bit faster
- Wider more open areas
- A bit of drift / handling (not much, but a drift).

I'm sorry if you took any offence but you asked for an eval report and I gave one. We all have different ideas and they were some of mine

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The Dark Padawan
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Posted: 24th Sep 2003 00:45
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Way cool game dude!
Oh yeah how did this become a sticky?

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heartbone
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Thank you Padawan.

Someone on the staff made the decision to make it sticky, I had nothing to do with it. But I do appreciate it a lot.

BTW, just like in the original there are corner "warps" which might be useful in attacking the red AI behind its stall.

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Wik
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It needs sliding collision

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Mattman
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I believe it is sticky because it is a demo, and a very nice one I must add

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Wik
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yes, it is VERY nice

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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Sep 2003 02:38 Edited at: 30th Sep 2003 02:38
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Boeing-- General Motors-- Ford... I'm impressed

My uncle worked for Boeing, but that's the extent of my claim to fame in that aspect


I think it's a pretty fun game, with impressive design. The radar is neat, enemy AI is quite challenging, design is good and simple.


I think what most of the people who have launched (generally, but not all, constructive) critisisms are getting at is that although it's a good game, it has the potential to be a much better one. I think most of the people around here are used to almost everything being WIP, open to further building and improvment. I can't help but agree that the game could be even more than it is (which is a good game/demo)--

Collision is a bugger... here's my reasons for saying that. While sliding collision isn't realistic with tanks, neither is launching only one shot at a time or respawning, etc; the point of a game is fun, not realism. It is VERY frustrating to be rotating next to a wall and get stuck because you're too close to it; move forward a bit and get stuck in the wall again; move back and get shot by the enemy tank. Sliding collision, or perhaps simply a slightly roomier playing area, would allivate this problem for the most part-- as it stands, more of the game is spent trying to get unstuck from walls than it is combating the enemy tank.

Well, that's my two cents. Congrats on making this!

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heartbone
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Posted: 30th Sep 2003 21:01
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Thanks for your feedback Mouse.

Yes it does have the potential to be better.
Yes it is challenging to stay away from the walls.
Yes it can be frustrating to get stuck.
That is part of the design.
Some will like it, some will not.
It is what it is.
I did have to make the space between the stall and the wall
slightly larger for the green AI to operate properlyat low frame rates.

After you play the game for a while,
you just may start to think that the battlefield is too large.

Thanks for taking the time to communicate.

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heartbone
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Posted: 9th Oct 2003 07:35 Edited at: 9th Oct 2003 07:40
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It seems strange to have to emphasize simplicity. You'd think simple would be the default. Ornate is more work. But something seems to come over people when they try to be creative.

Good design looks easy. Like great athletes, great designers make it look easy. Mostly this is an illusion.

Good design uses symmetry. I think symmetry may just be one way to achieve simplicity, but it's important enough to be mentioned on its own. Nature uses it a lot, which is a good sign.


Games are getting far too complex by ever-advancing technology, let alone the competitive race to be the most interactive, jam-packed action-and-special-effects game on the shelves.


Though he's widely regarded as an innovator, Carmack is a big fan of old-school arcade games. He's also an unlikely supporter of Nintendo's recently announced philosophy that games have become too difficult.

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feiting
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ACK! PAGE NOT FOUND! Testing 1.0 now...

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Rob K
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Posted: 26th Oct 2003 14:17
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@heartbone

I think you are too concerned with the game "obeying" the rules of the original C64 game. Games are just that - games. They are meant to be fun. Entertainment is the ultimate goal of a videogame. Getting stuck in walls is a frustrating experience and detracts from the playability of the game.

Be honest with yourself - do you really *like* stop collision?


BLUE GUI Plugin: http://blue.robert-knight.net / BLUE IDE http://blueide.sf.net/blueide_alpha3.exe
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heartbone
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Posted: 26th Oct 2003 18:48
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feiting sorry about that, I forgot to remove the links to the old betas.

Rob K It can not obey the rules of the original C64 (1983) game as the game was originally for the Atari VCS (1977).

In the original game you could not go backwards when going into a wall, you must turn around before moving, so I did make a change to make it more enjoyable (to me).

Be honest with yourself - do you really *like* stop collision?
What a strange question Rob K. Yes, honestly I enjoy the program just the way it runs. Otherwise would I not have changed the design since I wrote this to please me?

There is a major upgrade in the can that is a DarkBASIC Professional version of this sim. It will be announced as soon as the fully networked version is wrapped for commercial distribution (there is currently a glitch in the wrapping process). Sniff around my web site for the current free networked DBP version.

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empty
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Posted: 26th Oct 2003 19:00
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Actually I have to admit I was a bit sceptical about the collision or the lack of sliding collision, too. BUT in multiplayer mode your opponent'S tank gets stuck on walls as well. That's an opportunity for you to attack, or to move your own tank to a better position.
Believe me, you can't judge this game unless you tried the multiplayer mode.

I awoke in a fever. The bedclothes were all soaked in sweat.
She said "You've been having a nightmare and it's not over yet"
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heartbone
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Posted: 26th Oct 2003 19:15
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empty although you are one of the three people on the planet who have played ETC over the net and understand how much fun it is in that mode, you are being slightly misleading. The single player version of Easy Tank is also very fun if you give it a chance for what it is (and not what you imagine what it could be).

People all over the planet are judging the game to be pretty good, not the best but pretty good. Gigabytes of downloads from my site alone! 200 downloads ~ 1 GB and its on other freeware sites all over the planet. My website is getting over 60 visitors an hour.

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empty
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Posted: 26th Oct 2003 19:21
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Quote: "[...] you are being slightly misleading. The single player version of Easy Tank is also very fun if you give it a chance for what it is (and not what you imagine what it could be). "

Yes you're right. Now that I re-read my post... it could lead to a wrong conclusion.
I meant:
The game is pure fun. The multiplayer version even more than the single player version.

I awoke in a fever. The bedclothes were all soaked in sweat.
She said "You've been having a nightmare and it's not over yet"
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