Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / Why do they sell DBC?

Author
Message
Darkowen
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jan 2006
Location:
Posted: 3rd Jul 2009 21:24
There is alot of people asking and complaining about things that work in DBPro that doesnt work in DBC or why DBC isnt getting updates anymore, but i say why do they still sell Darkbasic Classic? DarkbasicPro is the exact same coding language, it isnt anymore difficult, it just has extra features and in my view is actually easier to use than Darkbasic Classic because of the better features. Another thing is why do people Buy Darkbasic classic at all? Dbp is not even that much more expensive so why not just fork out the extra few quid? instead of people complaining about it and instead of people asking for updates for DBC why dont they just update to DBP?? is there any benefits of using Classic instead of Pro?


Download the beta at http://www.evilpigeon.co.uk
Robert F
User Banned
Posted: 3rd Jul 2009 21:27
Quote: "There is alot of people asking and complaining about things that work in DBPro that doesnt work in DBC or why DBC isnt getting updates anymore, but i say why do they still sell Darkbasic Classic? DarkbasicPro is the exact same coding language, it isnt anymore difficult, it just has extra features and in my view is actually easier to use than Darkbasic Classic because of the better features. Another thing is why do people Buy Darkbasic classic at all? Dbp is not even that much more expensive so why not just fork out the extra few quid? instead of people complaining about it and instead of people asking for updates for DBC why dont they just update to DBP?? is there any benefits of using Classic instead of Pro?"


Nobody wants to fork out more money. Being Cheaper is always a benefit.


TheComet
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Oct 2007
Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 3rd Jul 2009 21:44
I use DBC, and I prefer it to DBP. I am repeating myself, but it is an art to make something look good in DBC, and I like that challenge. There are a few things that DBP doesn't have, for example keyframes. And I wasn't at all impressed by DBP, except for the speed it can run at, and the shading commands, but that's it.

TheComet


Make the path of your enemies easier with Waypoint Pro!
Darkowen
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jan 2006
Location:
Posted: 3rd Jul 2009 21:44 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2009 21:46
I dont think being cheaper is better in this case, because people that bought DBC and want better features will then again have to fork out more money for DBP, at the minute DBC is £20.99 while DBP is £35.99, thats just £15 more. I would like to think the majority of people who use Darkbasic would be over 16 and for people who are over 16 should easily be able to get £15 one way or another.....*edit*(sounds dodgy)


Download the beta at http://www.evilpigeon.co.uk
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 3rd Jul 2009 21:58 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2009 21:59
Dark Basic Classic is an old version of a fully functioning, working programming language. DBC can do wonders and though its past its prime, it still offers a fantastic game development package, that's great for lower spec computers and those who prefer it over DBP. Yes..there are people that still prefer it over DBP.

I feel the people who complain about DBC's functionality are just regretting that they didn't buy DBP in the first place. Think of it as; DBP is a paid upgrade of DBC. The difference in features between DBC and DBP aren't necessary to making awesome games, some of the best Dark Basic games have been made in DBC...and some are still being developed in it.

Darkowen
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jan 2006
Location:
Posted: 3rd Jul 2009 22:09
Good point, I am more of the type to be wow'd more by New creations and gadgets than respecting how good older things can be..especially for its time.


Download the beta at http://www.evilpigeon.co.uk
TheComet
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Oct 2007
Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 3rd Jul 2009 22:12
Quote: "I would like to think the majority of people who use Darkbasic would be over 16"


I was 10 when I got DBC...

@ Seppuku Arts

Good point.

TheComet


Make the path of your enemies easier with Waypoint Pro!
Richard Davey
Retired Moderator
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Apr 2002
Location: On the Jupiter Probe
Posted: 3rd Jul 2009 22:27 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2009 22:28
DBC can still definitely do a few things that make it useful even today:

Top of my list is that it has proper sprite collision detection (DBP, last time I looked, most certainly didn't).

It has the fmod library built into it, so really decent replay of tracker tunes, etc. DBP doesn't (yes you can add it via a plugin, but I'm still not sure of the license limitations there should you go commercial)

Also, and this one is key, it's interpreted (it doesn't compile in the way DBP does before running). This means for some things it can be a lot faster to code, test and be back coding again, where-as DBP could still be on the "compiling" stage. Granted these cases are few, but for games the size of say the Star Wraith series, I'd bet it's a serious advantage to them.

Also, given todays hardware, stuff made in DBC runs like s**t off a shovel

Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 3rd Jul 2009 22:38
Totally agree Richard, I just bought it last week again, for my laptop as my main PC is failing miseribly right now. It's the pixel sprite collision that makes it so useful. I'm writing a 2D game creator, that gold mouse pointer and f12 to quit brings back a lot of memories.

For casual games I think it's matured into a real option, it'll run on practically anything and is real quick to develop in. Worth saying as well though that you can get DBC for free, by signing up to an advert system. I bought the £20, which comes with Darkmatter (dozens of nice models for DBC) and the memblock expansion stuff. It also has a massive collection of snippets... I've certainly found worse ways to spend £20.


Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
Kevin Picone
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posted: 3rd Jul 2009 22:56
Quote: "I'm writing a 2D game creator"


Isn't everyone ?

Bizar Guy
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Apr 2005
Location: Bostonland
Posted: 3rd Jul 2009 23:55 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2009 23:55
I don't know if it's still the case, but when I bought DBC I had zero programming experience, and only learned to code by using the example code, which there was a huge amount of. When I got DBpro later, I found no good examples the way I had right in DBC. I also didn't find the community until a good bit after I'd started coding. Really, if I'd gotten DBpro first, I might have given up learning to code. I'm still using DBC for my current project as converting 8-10000 lines of densely written code isn't all that simple, even for such similar languages.

Edit: oh, I think I started coding sometime between 2003-4

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Apr 2005
Location: The Fifth Plane of Oblivion
Posted: 3rd Jul 2009 23:57
That's a very good point. DBC comes with tonnes of examples that actually work and are pretty easy to modify. The sliding collision one especially I made several lame 3D Kirby games from I seem to remember.

n008
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Apr 2007
Location: Chernarus
Posted: 3rd Jul 2009 23:57
I learned to program in DarkBASIC with DBC, though I never bought it. I just used the trial version and then saw that DarkBASIC Professional was basically the same thing

But yeah, DBC comes with a TON of really good example code. DBPro, not so much... =/

"I have faith, that I shall win the race, even though I have no legs, and am tied to a tree." ~Mark75
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Apr 2005
Location: The Fifth Plane of Oblivion
Posted: 4th Jul 2009 00:02
Here's an idea; why not release all DBC example code for DBP? Most of it should work fine.

Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 4th Jul 2009 00:09
DBC loads stuff faster too...or at least I think, thought it has been a few years since I've played with it as I gave it away to a good friend of mine.

Though rightly said the examples with DBC were great - I think everything I made was built on top of those examples. I was kind of disappointed that DBP didn't have so many.

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Apr 2005
Location: The Fifth Plane of Oblivion
Posted: 4th Jul 2009 00:12
3DS files load much quicker in DBC than DBP for an unknown reason.

TheComet
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Oct 2007
Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 4th Jul 2009 00:13 Edited at: 4th Jul 2009 00:14
X files load a lot faster in DBC too...

I think it is because DBP somehow has to set up shading thingies... Sounds really noobish...


Make the path of your enemies easier with Waypoint Pro!
JLMoondog
Moderator
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Jan 2009
Location: Paradox
Posted: 4th Jul 2009 00:53
I wish I still had my DB disc...I started out with DB before DBP was even conceived. I think that was around 2003, whatever year I was a junior.

I think it's main seller still now is it's per-pixel collision. It uses an older DX version. I think I read somewhere that DX9 sprites are faked by using textured plans locked to the camera.

Good times.

Darkowen
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jan 2006
Location:
Posted: 4th Jul 2009 00:56
..hmmm well i assumed all of DBC functions would of been applied to DBP and more some.


Download the beta at http://www.evilpigeon.co.uk
xplosys
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Jan 2006
Playing: FPSC Multiplayer Games
Posted: 4th Jul 2009 01:25
I think TGC should send it to me so I can see if it's any good.

Brian.

Diggsey
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Apr 2006
Location: On this web page.
Posted: 4th Jul 2009 01:40
I never really understood the purpose of 'bobs' in DBC Especially seeing as they behaved completely differently when you built the game from when you test the game

Herakles
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Mar 2009
Location: Lost in my own head
Posted: 4th Jul 2009 03:31
This debate is getting REALLY old.

You can't think of DBC as seperate from DBPro. Classic is just an old version of Pro. If anything that was in Classic has been removed from Pro, it's because there's something else that was added in which does the same thing much more efficiently.

There's only one reason for them to continue selling this snapshot in the history of DarkBASIC: It's good for people with very old computers. But TGC don't have to continue developing it, because that's exactly what DBPro is: the continuation of the development of DBC.

Swordfight! My cheesy little first game!
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=147808&b=36
Darkowen
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jan 2006
Location:
Posted: 4th Jul 2009 15:11
My thoughts exactly


Download the beta at http://www.evilpigeon.co.uk
tha_rami
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Mar 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 5th Jul 2009 05:15
But incorrect thoughts, nevertheless.

Like said, there are pros and cons to both.


A mod has been erased by your signature because it was larger than 600x120
Grog Grueslayer
Valued Member
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th May 2005
Playing: Green Hell
Posted: 6th Jul 2009 02:16
Do people stop selling cars when they get old? If I helped make Darkbasic Classic I wouldn't stop selling it either. It was a massive achievement and anybody that took part it it's creation would want Classic to continue forever.

Besides... if TGC gave away Classic people would still complain.

Lost in Thought
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Feb 2004
Location: U.S.A. : Douglas, Georgia
Posted: 6th Jul 2009 16:20
Agreed that DBC still has a very valid place on the market for people who love the syntax yet want lower system specs. I however have another language I prefer for lower system spec software. PlayBASIC has a different syntax than DBC/DBP but it's speed and functionality for it's low system specs are off the chain And a good price too. It'll be the only thing I use most likely for any type of application software. It's all personal preference I guess. So really there is no debate. Just buy what you want. Everything has a trial.

AlexI
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 31st Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posted: 6th Jul 2009 20:17
Quote: "Why do they sell DBC?"


Money They are likley to make 2 sales out of someone

Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 7th Jul 2009 00:29
As I said before, you can get DBClassic for free, you need to sign up to some sort of offer system. It's not ideal, lets not even pretend that these deals are much use to anyone - but it gets you DBC for free, and it's better than other, less legal routes.

Incidently, I have to say that memblocks in DBC are a god send!, doing things like reading from the screen was always as slow as death, now it's really quick to make a memblock from an image or bitmap, do whatever 2D stuff needs doing then convert back. DBC was always limited for me, if I'd bothered to get DarkMatter and the expansions it would have kept me going for ages, would have been nice during that horrible 'waiting for DBPro' period of my life.


Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
Robert F
User Banned
Posted: 7th Jul 2009 01:14
Quote: "Do people stop selling cars when they get old?"


Actually yeah, they pretty much do. Thats beyond the point though. lol


Grog Grueslayer
Valued Member
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th May 2005
Playing: Green Hell
Posted: 7th Jul 2009 02:08
I meant Classic cars sold by people not companies.

dark coder
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2002
Location: Japan
Posted: 7th Jul 2009 08:08
Quote: "I meant Classic cars sold by people not companies."


TGC isn't a company? Normally analogies are actually... analogous to the other thing you're comparing it to .

Grog Grueslayer
Valued Member
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th May 2005
Playing: Green Hell
Posted: 7th Jul 2009 11:04
Hahaha... I'd try again but it's beyond hope now.

Travis Gatlin
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th May 2009
Location: Oxford, Alabama
Posted: 16th Jul 2009 00:08 Edited at: 16th Jul 2009 00:16
the reason why they still sell DBC is because it is cheaper and some people who just have a computer programing hobby dont want to spend alot on it,like me i just do it for a hobby and im not gonna spend alot on it,plus i need to buy other things (and building a new game development language is a pretty big deal i would be proud of it!)

the modern government tries to make time,into money that is why clock are not free! in theory time is actually money!
Darkowen
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jan 2006
Location:
Posted: 16th Jul 2009 10:22
They definetly should be proud of it but its not like im telling them to ditch the language, just that they have developed the language more for Darkbasic pro, and it might be cheaper but not by alot, we arnt talking hundreds of pounds, its only about £15 less.


Download the beta at http://www.evilpigeon.co.uk
Travis Gatlin
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th May 2009
Location: Oxford, Alabama
Posted: 18th Jul 2009 03:53
DBP is waaaaaay more expensive than DBC but why not buy dark studio? you get waaaay more for about 10 bucks more that DBP,PLUS!!
dark studio comes with DBP so why not buy dark studio?

the modern government tries to make time,into money that is why clock are not free! in theory time is actually money!
Kevin Picone
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posted: 18th Jul 2009 04:13
To some DBpro's extra functionality is way more appealing, but for some it's simply overwhelming. So it makes sense to keep making it available.

Turoid
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Nov 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posted: 19th Jul 2009 01:49
Quote: "I meant Classic cars sold by people not companies. "


And here is one who buys old cars.. haha! I have a classic mini cooper. It is my 3rd one already.. No modern car for me!

I agree with 'TheComet'. I feel the same about that. The only thing I'm missing very badly in DBC are 'structs'. Or in DBP called 'types'. Other than that it is a great package


Aaron Miller
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Feb 2006
Playing: osu!
Posted: 19th Jul 2009 02:26
Quote: "Also, and this one is key, it's interpreted (it doesn't compile in the way DBP does before running). This means for some things it can be a lot faster to code, test and be back coding again, where-as DBP could still be on the "compiling" stage. Granted these cases are few, but for games the size of say the Star Wraith series, I'd bet it's a serious advantage to them."

The machine code DBPro produces isn't even that good, I'd hate to see what kind of code it produces for it's virtual machine... The reason why the professional industry uses C++: It produces better code, faster with more flexibility. DBC nor DBP offers that. If you have a DBP statement, say: x=0+1+2+3, it'll actually encode that machine code:

Even BlitzBasic will optimize that to:


Not only that, but all the error handling code that DBP throws in there is absolutely horrible, and your code is appended to the EXE as a file, rather than actually existing in the EXE itself. I've done statements as simple as: position=start+rate*100 and it'd resort to using the stack to do computations. Not only that, you'd see statements like this produced:

The result? The processor wastes time running that code that does absolutely nothing. You might as well through a dozen NOP instructions into the assembly for fun!

As an additional note: DBP can't even output machine code for floating point commands. It has to call it's core DLL for FPU management. Even things as simple as adding or multiplying. Even though intrinsics such as SIN, COS, ATAN, etc, can easily be implemented as outputting to machine code, it isn't. Converting from an integer to a float requires a DLL call, and much more horrible stuff.

Absolutely nothing is optimized. Not even a simple optimization like converting a MOV <xxx>, 0 to an XOR <xxx>, <xxx> is implemented. And yes, I've looked at the output assembly, turned off safety code, and did everything else I could to produce "tight" code, but it doesn't output any better. The array handling code is even worse than anything else.

If interpretation is an advantage for you, then you're not doing things right. Under no circumstances should interpreted code be an advantage for a professional developer, with the single exception of a scripting language -- and even then, the scripting language is likely custom made, and builds to machine code on the fly.

Of course, that's looking at DBC and DBP as professional languages, while they're clearly only meant for novices in the field of programming, and in rare cases, prototyping. So, I suppose it's good for people who don't know how to program and can't expand.

Cheers,
-naota

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Apr 2005
Location: The Fifth Plane of Oblivion
Posted: 19th Jul 2009 02:42 Edited at: 19th Jul 2009 02:45
Quote: "If interpretation is an advantage for you, then you're not doing things right. Under no circumstances should interpreted code be an advantage for a professional developer, with the single exception of a scripting language -- and even then, the scripting language is likely custom made, and builds to machine code on the fly."


Interpreted code can be an advantage. Find me a C/++ debugger for the price of DB that works anywhere near as well. It can get close for free, but interpreted code is far easier to debug in a lot of cases. Often I've had debuggers say memcpy went wrong. As the debug memcpy is in a DLL, they say "The problem is in that DLL!"

Yeah... that's helpful... thanks.

Oh, and GDB's response to malloc( 0 ) doesn't even specify malloc; just a load of junk about RTP tables. It took me weeks to figure out where the problem lay because the uninterpreted code couldn't be understood by the debugger as well as interpreted would be. Run off the end of an array in C/++. The program just crashes. If you're lucky, you might know where the problem occurred through the debugger. Often, you only find out when the program tries write to the invalid entry, worse five entries off the end!

For beginner programmers, C/++ just can't simplify the cause of the problem or make it easy to understand the meaning of it because debuggers for C/++ don't know what you're trying to do. To them, it's pointers and memory, not arrays and 3D models which is what beginners want their errors relevant to.


I am beginning to learn now, it's taken me a year and a half but now I feel some confidence in my C programming skills.

An average guy/girl who wants to make 3D games in his/her spare time does not wish to invest the hundreds of hours needed to be able to write a piece of code and understand how it could go wrong and interpretation avoids the problem by bringing the error messages down to their level.

Kevin Picone
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posted: 19th Jul 2009 03:31
Quote: "professional developer"


Define professional. To me, quality programmers are those that can produce quality solutions, regardless of the environment.

Richard Davey
Retired Moderator
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Apr 2002
Location: On the Jupiter Probe
Posted: 19th Jul 2009 14:17
Quote: "The reason why the professional industry uses C++: It produces better code, faster with more flexibility."


C++ itself as a language has precious little to do with the quality of the machine code that is generated at compilation. You could create a C++ compiler as equally inefficient as DBP. The language is neither here nor there.

Quote: "So, I suppose it's good for people who don't know how to program and can't expand."


Get off your high horse. Language choice is irrelevant. End results are everything.

Emphasoft
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Jun 2007
Location: Deep Underneath the Center of the Earth
Posted: 19th Jul 2009 15:34
This is pretty late, but the reason 3ds files and x files load faster in dbc is because they aren't converted to .dbo. When you load a 3ds or x in dbp, it converts 3ds files to x, and then x to dbo (i think). I don't remember where I read it, but search dbo advantages and it should help.

Salvation and Sickness are in every heart. Death and Deliverance are in every hand.
-Orson Scott Card
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Apr 2005
Location: The Fifth Plane of Oblivion
Posted: 19th Jul 2009 21:57
Quote: "C++ itself as a language has precious little to do with the quality of the machine code that is generated at compilation. You could create a C++ compiler as equally inefficient as DBP. The language is neither here nor there."


This is very true. Guitar Hero III for PC is a good example of this; it runs like utter crap on most systems even going to the extreme of removing all visuals except the fretboard and replacing all of the note models with plains.

Aaron Miller
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Feb 2006
Playing: osu!
Posted: 22nd Jul 2009 22:02
Quote: "C++ itself as a language has precious little to do with the quality of the machine code that is generated at compilation. You could create a C++ compiler as equally inefficient as DBP. The language is neither here nor there."

I agree, but I haven't seen any compiler output code as horrible as DBP.

Quote: "Get off your high horse. Language choice is irrelevant. End results are everything."

Yes... And usually machine code will generate better results. Especially when an algorithm isn't being interpreted and being slowed down by the weight of additional, unnecessary instructions the processor has to execute.

Quote: "Interpreted code can be an advantage. Find me a C/++ debugger for the price of DB that works anywhere near as well. It can get close for free, but interpreted code is far easier to debug in a lot of cases. Often I've had debuggers say memcpy went wrong. As the debug memcpy is in a DLL, they say "The problem is in that DLL!""

To do any useful debugging, regardless of the debugger used, you should implement your own debugging library specific to your project. Also, there is such a thing as stack walking -- using this you can see exactly what functions were called with which parameters before the crash. This can help your track it down. So, in the case of your memcpy, you can see what function called the memcpy and with what values. GDB and GCC aren't the best tools to use either (in terms of efficiency.)

Quote: "Define professional. To me, quality programmers are those that can produce quality solutions, regardless of the environment."

I would define a professional as someone who gets paid for what they do, which would imply that they are producing quality results. But personally I would view it as someone who knows what they're doing and has the complete skill set and resources to implement the projects of their field; having enough insight to decide what tools are best for the job.

@everyone
Sorry for the bump! I didn't have enough time to post earlier, and didn't really have the time to post currently. (I'm late for something atm.)

Cheers,
-naota

Your signature has been erased by a mod because it's too large--- 800k !?

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2025-06-07 16:44:47
Your offset time is: 2025-06-07 16:44:47