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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / I newbie wants to in understandable words the power of DB.

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Rixarn
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Posted: 10th Sep 2002 22:45
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Hi all... im new to the world or programming, and to DB. I had coded but something minnimal in DB.

What i see are features the Compiler has but, since i dont know other compilers/languajes i cant compare. Now lets assume a group of professional programmers(or a gaming company) uses DBPro to make a game. Using DBPro the final game(lets say about 3 or 4 years in the work) how competitive will be to other games in the market?
(Speaking in a cold, objective way w/o favoritism to DBPRO)
Competitive speaking graphics, speed, sound etc.

Thanks for your time
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gbuilder
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Posted: 10th Sep 2002 23:06
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It's a little early to know yet how DBPro will stack up against C++ but all the early indications are that it will do the job necessary to make sellable professional programs.
The next two weeks should see an abundance of quick fire demos appear to be able to judge from.
The advantage of DBPro over C++ is that it is a 'game specific' language which means that programming time can be minimised.

gbuilder.

Life is a game.
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Rob K
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Posted: 10th Sep 2002 23:26
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Effectively the DarkBasic team have done all the hard work, leaving the development team to produce the end result and concentrate on the game.

Main advantages:

- Much faster to program: Easier to learn and the miles of code that go into producing one effect have been simplified into single commands.

- Highly compatible: DB Pro had already been tested on many machines and works fine

- Regularly updated: The DB Pro team fixes issues with the core, so if someone has problems you didn't even know about then they may be fixed

- Support for all the latest graphics features: Fully supports all the new features of DirectX 8.1, including all the new effects made possible by GeForce 3 GFX cards. So it is easily possible to make graphics as good as commercial games.

- Support for DLLs: If something you want is not available, you can write a DLL in C++ and use it in your DB Pro application to extend it.

- Support for popular formats: There is already support for all the major file formats you will need to use in a game. These include: .X and .3DS (3D Studio MAX) format for models, .BMP and other image formats, many music formats, support for playing CD music, support for DVD video, support for AVI. Support for BSP files.

- BSP Files: Rapid level design: DBPRO can easily load and use BSP files which are the level information files used by programs such as Quake 3 and Half-Life. There are many tools around to create such files, which are a little bit like simplified 3D design tools. Very quick and easy to produce.

- Large DBPRO community: There is a large DB (soon DBPRO) community that can help with any problems and developers who are far more focussed on creating games. There are few C++ game creating communities.

If you have any other questions or queries, just let us know.

If I were in your position, I certainly would use DBPRO. At only £55 or £70 full it is a lot cheaper than some C++ development environments.

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Rob K
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Posted: 10th Sep 2002 23:28
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The speed will probably be about the same as C++.

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Pickles
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Posted: 12th Sep 2002 20:31
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DPPRO will never be as fast as C.
C programming is the standard for professional game design.
C game engines are open source and free.(less then $55)
C games can be ported to other platforms.
Most C game engines come with better tools then DB or DBPro.

Don't get me wrong. DB and DBPro are great products and I use them for commercial purposes. But the fact of the matter is that professional game production requires much more then what DB has to offer. For example DBPro has the slowest BSP handler I have ever come across.
Compare a 3D shooter made with DB to one made with Reality Factory. Ask yourself;
What was the development time?
How many Bugs does it have?
How are they comparing in speed?
What was the total production cost?

There are a number of quality game development tools on the market ranging from free to $500. (ie. RealityFactory, 3DGamestudio, Blender, Fly3D etc.) If anyone is serious about producing commercial products then they should also remain subjective and keep an open mind. Don't get stuck on a single product. Expand your resources.

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Rob K
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Posted: 12th Sep 2002 21:00
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I agree with the last point, but my main plus for DBPro is that it is incredibly easy to make games in. Thus it is mainly aimed at creating shareware games.

However, it could easily make games of professional quality.

What was the development time - Faster in DBPro

How many bugs does it have - More in DBPro at the moment, but the product is very new, as Patch 1 shows, they are fixing things rapidly.

Speed - Faster in C++ (but not amazingly, I have tested the DBPro demo with a similar one made in C++ also for speed tests. The C++ one was 5% faster but the source code was much longer)

Total production cost - Depends, generally DBPro will be cheaper but there are free ones.

Overall, I would recommend DBPro regardless, as it is especially good at quickly proto-typing ideas. If you are serious enough to produce a commercial game (to be sold in the shops), you are serious enough to use C++.

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Pickles
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Posted: 13th Sep 2002 01:19
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Any of the Game Engines I mentioned above can turn out a game 100 x faster then DBPro. Making a game means a lot more work then coding. (Which is the easy work) All DB or DBPro does is add extensive coding to the list of things to do.

I am so sick of people who sleep with a copy od DB under the pillow.

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DeathShadow
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Posted: 13th Sep 2002 01:31
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FFS, pickles.
'Any of the Game Engines I mentioned above can turn out a game 100 x faster then DBPro. Making a game means a lot more work then coding. (Which is the easy work) All DB or DBPro does is add extensive coding to the list of things to do.'

Dark Basic is just Basic with various built in functions. You could write these functions yourself (in C++ or basic) and include only the ones you need in every game you make for the rest of time (or until someone kills you with your attitute) - This would be a few percent faster, but not 100x faster.

DB takes the boredom out of making games - you no longer have to program millions of functions to do stuff, and then debug it - it is already done!

And all a game is is code, with sound files, image files, 3d models, and video. The main bit is the code - all the rest can be 3 mins work if you really want!



And anyway, there is no real point in making a game if u use someone else's engine - look at things like Gunman. simply a crappy set of levels and a few weapons, using the half-life engine.

And if you h8 DB so much, wtf are u doing on this forum?

AthlonXP 2100+ (HeatPipe cooled), 512MB DDR, Geforce4Ti4400 128MB, 17" monitor, 5.1 sound, 192GB RAID Disk Space, 1MB/s cable, 400W, 16x48x DVD, 32x12x48 CDRW, 10/100 Ethernet,8 FANS!
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Chroma
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Posted: 13th Sep 2002 03:31
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Let's keep this place peaceful guys. I'd like to see things calm down around here. It's getting kinda bad.

Blimey Mate!
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 13th Sep 2002 03:41
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"DPPRO will never be as fast as C."

C will never be as fast as assembler.

"C programming is the standard for professional game design."

C++ is the standard. With in-line assembler for the really meaty parts.

"C game engines are open source and free.(less then $55)"

Game engines are just that - engines. If you use C to interface with them then so be it. The speed is in the engine, not the language of the interface. Use a crappy engine and you'll get a crappy game. Decent commercial quality game engines are not open source or free.

"C games can be ported to other platforms."

Only if the engine is available on that platform. Try porting a DirectX game to a Unix box for example, or OpenGL to a Mac. Without various emulators/convertors it's not so easy.

"Most C game engines come with better tools then DB or DBPro."

Use Hammer to create your BSP levels (if it's good enough for Valve, it's surely good enough for you). Use 3D Studio to make your models. Use Cubase/whatever for the music. Use Character Studio for the animation.

Show me some tools that come bundled with "free/cheap C game engines" that rival those. Good tools do not make a good compiler.

There are a number of quality game development tools on the market ranging from free to $500. (ie. RealityFactory, 3DGamestudio, Blender, Fly3D etc.)

Okay.. RealityFactory is an SDK, Blender3D is an SDK, Genesis3D is an SDK, Fly3D is an SDK.

None of these things are programming languages. They are not directly comparable to DBPro and without C++ knowledge are useless. That is not what DBPro is aimed at.

3DGameStudio is the only package you mention that can be compared to DBPro and even then only the C-script (or lower) versions of it. The decent version that would let you make a commercial game requires C++ or Delphi skills.

"If anyone is serious about producing commercial products then they should also remain subjective and keep an open mind. Don't get stuck on a single product. Expand your resources."

I would agree with this - if someone is serious about writing commercial games then they should learn C++, math and physics and do it very soon. If they already know C++ (and I mean know it well, we're not talking the ability to compile someone elses libraries here) then they should look at interfacing with the DirectX API directly for maximum speed (or whatever "game engine" bakes their noodle).

However the guy that started this thread is NEW to programming, new to game design and wants to start somewhere in which case you've shown me absolutely no evidence to prove that DBPro isn't going to be ideal for him.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Rixarn
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Posted: 13th Sep 2002 04:49
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Well, thanks for your answers, all of you. And thank you also rich, for what i see you´re keeping a close eye to your customers/future (probably ) customers.

If i am Correct, what i can understand is:
-With no knowledge of C++, advanced maths and physics the "powerfull" or "fasts" tools are useless for me not to mention the $ you need to buy those tools....

I can only dream about making games, isnt it?

I had used DB before, but only a little, the best thing I could do was to position 3d objects with the mouse pointer in a fixed plane...converting the distance between pixels in distance between objects and then positioning the object via coordinates. (The advance maths, formulas using Cos, Sin to do that are far away for me now...)

I want to learn, i REALLY like the idea of making a game.
But what are my chances of making one, a decent (not nearly commercial-professional quality) game?
even if i have limited knowledge of maths and physics, is DBPRo for me?

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Pickles
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Posted: 13th Sep 2002 07:10
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Name one game currently sold on the commercial market made with DB.

There are hundreds made by the other, "SDK's".

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Asheron
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Posted: 13th Sep 2002 07:15
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Yes DB1x or DBPRO are for you. They can easily be utilized into impresive games by experienced and begginer coders alike. Try picking up a c++ book and you'll see the contrast I would say that definantly they are for you. You are new to programming and you dont want to get sucked in over your head with c/c++.

Real time skinning for your models. PowerPaint3d coming soon.
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Rixarn
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Posted: 13th Sep 2002 07:25
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by the way, what does SDK means?

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Pickles
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Posted: 13th Sep 2002 07:35
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Reality Factory Game Engine for 3D Shooters.

1 - No coding required whatsoever.
2 - Has a simple scripting language if needed.
3 - Comes with all necesary tools. (including BSP compiler)
4 - Is free of charge and open source.
5 - Requires only Milkshape 3D ($20) to become a full fledged game creation suite.

Other freeware tools for 3D animation:
Lithunwrap 1.3 *****
Anim8or 0.8 ***
Gimp 1.2 for Win32 *****

SDK means Software Development Kit.

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Rob K
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Posted: 13th Sep 2002 09:40
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To answer your earlier question pickles, no DB game is currently commercially available mainly because DB was too slow and had compatability problems. This doesn't apply to DBPro which is much, much faster.

If you are REALLY serious then C++/DirectX is the only option. Having actually tried Reality Factory, I wasn't overly impressed and would use DBPro instead.

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Pickles
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Posted: 13th Sep 2002 10:05
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If you are REALLY serious, then spend $200 on 3DGameStudio.

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Stink2K
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Posted: 13th Sep 2002 10:18
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starwraith is a commercial game game in db
and they made another also. wouldnt be suprised if they come out with a 3rd made with dbpro. there is another game that is coming out also name "tito the bouncing alien" or something.

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Rob K
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Posted: 13th Sep 2002 16:21
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The ultimate answer is just to investigate your options. Download trial versions of all the packages (if available) and work out which one suits you best.

Pickles, I'll go along with you because I don't want to start an argument, it is pointless and it wouldn't achieve anything.

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Fireburst
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Posted: 13th Sep 2002 17:00
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Pickles, DBpro is mainly targeting a home user audience who can with time and effort knock out a nice game all by themselves.

To code a game using C would take considerably more skill, time, effort and would probably require a number of people to work on the project instead of just one. If you wanted to use an advanced engine which took advantage of some of DX8.1 eye candy then you would be looking at considerably more than $99. Lets just keep all this in perspective.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is.
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