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Geek Culture / Judge orders Microsoft to stop selling MS word.

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Omega gamer 89
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 03:37
Its true! Microsoft has been ordered to stop selling, demonstrating, or marketing Microsoft Word, due a patent infringement involving XML!
Linkage.
Crazy. huh?

I have a devious mind.
ionstream
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 03:50
I'm at a loss for Word.

Eh? Come on thats funny .

That1Smart Guy
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 04:02
rofl, is this true?

if it is, then are they making a new word processor?

BMacZero
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 04:05
What? First the EU bans IE, now this?

Not that I have any special affection for MS, but still...



Sid Sinister
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 04:16
This will get over turned. Sounds like politics to me.

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Jeku
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 04:29
Word is a MS flagship product. They will still sell it if they pay the penalties to the Toronto company.


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Omega gamer 89
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 04:31
The article said something about them building a work-around so that it doesn't use the infringing items.

I have a devious mind.
Zuka
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 05:00 Edited at: 13th Aug 2009 14:32
That's [no]. Honestly. Hundreds of applications use XML. They're just trying to get money because MS uses it, so they see them as a prime target. I bet they didn't even make it, they're probably lying about making XML.

Hopefully this "i4i" company gets whats coming to them.

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puppyofkosh
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 05:15
This is a bit unfair IMO. That and the whole IE thing.
Mahoney
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 05:21
Quote: "That's bulls**t. Honestly. Hundreds of applications use XML. They're just trying to get money because MS uses it, so they see them as a prime target. I bet they didn't even make it, they're probably lying about making XML."


I think it's about the way they implement it specifically, not the use in general.

Quote: "if it is, then are they making a new word processor?"


Obviously not. Either they will remove the infringing code/technology, or, as Jeku said, pay their dues to the original patent holder.

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That1Smart Guy
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 05:52
MS Word is like the only word processor ive ever used, xcept notepad I guess a little

Mahoney
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 06:32
Quote: "MS Word is like the only word processor ive ever used, xcept notepad I guess a little"


Then you need to get OpenOffice.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 06:48
Something to do with building an index table for the xml tags or whatever. Still, I highly doubt MS has implemented XML in such a way that nobody else has ever done. I think it's become rather lame that everyone insists on saving their files in XML formats anyway. Just increases file size.

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Jeku
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 07:11
Quote: "I think it's become rather lame that everyone insists on saving their files in XML formats anyway."


The point of XML is that it's open, and it can be read by other programs. I would reckon XML is the greatest way to save all different kinds of data.


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MIDN90
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 07:39
Quote: "Crazy. huh?"


Not as crazy as this.
Van B
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 09:35
What's crazy about that?

I think the customer in that case is 100% in the right - serve McDonalds right for trying to brush the incident off, while some poor woman goes through skin grafts they offer her 5% of her hospital bill in compensation. The more lawsuits won like that, the less likely big corporations are to disregard the suffering that they are responsible for.


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Darth Vader
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 10:15
Quote: "I think the customer in that case is 100% in the right - serve McDonalds right for trying to brush the incident off, while some poor woman goes through skin grafts they offer her 5% of her hospital bill in compensation. The more lawsuits won like that, the less likely big corporations are to disregard the suffering that they are responsible for."
+1

Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 10:33
I don't see it as a bad thing. That's why people patent stuff... to keep other people from stealing their ideas/products. I just wish they'd stop patenting Human gene sequences since companies didn't invent Humans.


@ MIDN90:

No, that's not crazy but this is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Pants

It's the court case about a Judge that took his pants to a dry cleaner and they lost them for several days. They offered him his pants when they found them and instead he claimed those were not his pants. He sued them for 67 million for inconvenience, mental anguish, and attorney fees even though he was his own lawyer.

But you know what they say... "People that represent themselves have a fool for a client."

Happy Cheesecake
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 11:24
This is tragic! Mr.Paperclip will have no more new friends until this is resolved! ...Horrible

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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 11:32
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lazerus
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 12:12
Quote: "she had suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent.[11] She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. Two years of treatment followed."


Macdonalds case,

No your complelty right she cried wolf just to get her name in the news...



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David R
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 13:30 Edited at: 13th Aug 2009 13:39
Quote: "They will still sell it if they pay the penalties to the Toronto company."


I believe they already lost the opportunity to settle, which is why the judge has done this

Overall, I think it's damn good. MS have been building up their own patent repertoire and have already been trying to use these tactics on not only the Linux community, but other smaller corporations too. So finally, a taste of their own medicine

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HowDo
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 13:40
so MS will now have to do what it say in the ULA, which it will not be able to do due to cost of doing it.

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Diggsey
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 13:49
Why don't MS just BUY the company that owns the patent

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 16:13
The coffee cup case is because the coffee was 'too' hot, I mean, I had a pot noodle for lunch, I used a kettle to boil it, if I spilled the pot noodle all over me it wouldn't have been as severe as that case was, or if I spilled a cup of tea or coffee. She was severely burned and she shouldn't have been, hence the case.


If it's patented in that way, then there's nothing MS can do to change that and it's not ridiculous. A patent is there so that when you invest in your product or business you're not going to suffer a loss because of imitators or those who use their design without an agreement then they should be able to settle for money, after all it could be potential money they could be earning with their own technology. Also, investors may not invest in a company if their product is not patented for similar reasons. And no, I don't watch too much Dragon's Den.

Mnemonix
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 16:46
Dragons Den rocks!

Mnemonix
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 16:59
Indeed, I've been tempted to pitch of my chav fuelled electric generator on there, but I don't think they'd take me too seriously on there...even if it's environmentally friendly.

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 17:30
Quote: "Why don't MS just BUY the company that owns the patent"


And then dismantle it, I suppose? Who bought the company that made Truespace and why?
David R
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 17:51 Edited at: 13th Aug 2009 17:52
Quote: "Who bought the company that made Truespace and why? "


I believe MS wanted their tech for the 3D world mapping thing (Virtual Earth)

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Satchmo
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 17:56 Edited at: 13th Aug 2009 17:57
Quote: "And then dismantle it, I suppose?"


Well, if you can't beat em' Buy em.

Quote: "Overall, I think it's damn good. MS have been building up their own patent repertoire and have already been trying to use these tactics on not only the Linux community, but other smaller corporations too. So finally, a taste of their own medicine "


I'm not saying they haven't but do you have an example?

IanM
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Posted: 13th Aug 2009 20:10
Quote: "I'm not saying they haven't but do you have an example?"

FUD regarding the 'Linux patents' that's been going on for years, and the recent TomTom case.

There are also semi-official rumours of forced licensing to avoid being sued, hidden by non-disclosure agreements.

This latest patent isn't about XML - it's about the way that microsoft have allowed people to include 'custom data schemas' within word. More details ... http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=3712

Jeku
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 01:51
Quote: "Why don't MS just BUY the company that owns the patent"


The company probably intends to be bought out by MS


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MIDN90
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 05:33
Quote: "I think the customer in that case is 100% in the right - serve McDonalds right for trying to brush the incident off, while some poor woman goes through skin grafts they offer her 5% of her hospital bill in compensation. The more lawsuits won like that, the less likely big corporations are to disregard the suffering that they are responsible for."


It would have never happened if she didn't put the Styrofoam cup between her knees and then trying to pull the top off with one hand, I mean, have you ever had any type of cup between your knees? Try it, and see how you manage to have it balanced. I'm sorry that she was burned, but it could have easily been avoided. Regardless of whether or not McDonalds was trying to brush it off, they have other matters than one freak accident.
GameDaddy
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 06:50 Edited at: 14th Aug 2009 06:58
It was way more than one accident. Having had coffee that is much too hot and being rendered temporarily speech impaired by coffee that was served too hot, I cheered when this woman was awarded.

It's not her individual case I was cheering about, it's the fact that due to that instance, McDonalds changed their procedures, first to implement procedures regulate the extreme temperature of their coffee to something more reasonable. Then they changed the specs on the coffee machines they purchased so thet didn't have to constantly monitor the temperature the coffee was being served at, although they do routinely test it now to make sure the coffee machines don't malfunction.

@MIDN90... in what way is permitting any vendor to serve a product that can actually harm customers good?

In Microsoft's case, I think i4i is just gold digging. When you do a contract for Microsoft, you sign the rights over, and when you design using MS software, there's a license that is included with that design software. The East Texas court that pushed that court order through the system, is notorious for exploiting loopholes in the arcane U.S. Patent system. In a similar related thread, Microsoft recently open-sourced hundreds of thousands of lines of code related to Microsoft Linux drivers and other software designed to support open source hardware and open source software.
Jeku
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 08:40
Quote: "In a similar related thread, Microsoft recently open-sourced hundreds of thousands of lines of code related to Microsoft Linux drivers and other software designed to support open source hardware and open source software."


They only did that because they were required to by the GPL


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MIDN90
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 09:00
Quote: "@MIDN90... in what way is permitting any vendor to serve a product that can actually harm customers good?"


If you buy fireworks and choose to not handle it carefully and you get injured, who's fault is it? Same goes for coffee.
xplosys
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 15:34
Quote: "If you buy fireworks and choose to not handle it carefully and you get injured, who's fault is it?"


How would I know.... I'm not a lawyer.

Brian.

Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 15:35
Quote: "If you buy fireworks and choose to not handle it carefully and you get injured, who's fault is it? Same goes for coffee. "


Of course, because coffee is inherently dangerous.
Beast E Gargoyle
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 15:48
Well, the case is very sane compared to alot of the court cases today. On example that I just recently heard of a little daughter sued her father for $50,000 for not letting her get a summertime Barbie while they were shopping.

Heck, I work at wal-mart which has no backbone and they paid a customer his full money back when he brought in 2 bags of just wings (the bones of what was left after sucking on them) and said his dinner was sub-par and he deserved all his money back. Well, the manager gave him his money and said I hope to see you here again soon.

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xplosys
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 15:54
Patent infringement and liability law are two different animals, and the arguments really don't apply.

The problem with liability cases is mainly two-fold.

First, liability insurance is seen as a kind of nuisance fee. You just buy the insurance because you know you'll be sued by idiots and you want the insurance company to handle that for you.

Second..... Lawyers. If "DO NOT PLACE HOT COFFEE CUP BETWEEN KNEES AND ATTEMPT TO REMOVE COVER WITH ONE HAND!" wasn't printed on the cup in big, bold, red letters, then they have a case.

I think (I'm not a lawyer and my experience with patent law is limited) that patent law is much more precise, and that infringement is more clearly defined. It's a matter of proving that someone did use your property and not who is at fault or even if they used it in a reasonable manner.

Brian.

djmaster
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 16:23
I dont really care cause I have Office 2003 and its much more effecient for me cause the new interface confuses me.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 17:45
Quote: "Quote: "@MIDN90... in what way is permitting any vendor to serve a product that can actually harm customers good?"

If you buy fireworks and choose to not handle it carefully and you get injured, who's fault is it? Same goes for coffee. "



Coffee isn't meant to be dangerously hot. My sister just made herself a coffee, if I put my finger in it, it will be very hot, but it won't get scolded and I won't have to go to hospital and the skin on my finger won't be scarred or disfigured.

The problem with that case is NOT that she was able to spill hot coffee over herself, but that the coffee itself was DANGEROUSLY hot. Coffee isn't meant to be dangerously hot...just hot.

MIDN90
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 20:02
Quote: "Coffee isn't meant to be dangerously hot. My sister just made herself a coffee, if I put my finger in it, it will be very hot, but it won't get scolded and I won't have to go to hospital and the skin on my finger won't be scarred or disfigured.

The problem with that case is NOT that she was able to spill hot coffee over herself, but that the coffee itself was DANGEROUSLY hot. Coffee isn't meant to be dangerously hot...just hot."


If McDonalds wants to serve scalding dangerous coffee, then that's their choice. No one forced her to go to McDonalds. And second, fireworks aren't meant to be dangerous, yet they still can be.
Mahoney
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 20:11
Quote: "If McDonalds wants to serve scalding dangerous coffee, then that's their choice. No one forced her to go to McDonalds. And second, fireworks aren't meant to be dangerous, yet they still can be."


Are you serious?

She had third (almost fourth) degree burns!

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David R
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 20:12
Quote: "If McDonalds wants to serve scalding dangerous coffee, then that's their choice. No one forced her to go to McDonalds."


That argument doesn't work - because as a consumer, you don't know the practices which they use internally, nor do you expect them to be dangerous (and in this case, I doubt the woman knew the coffee would be dangerously hot when she ordered it)

If we follow your logic, imagine the implications for food poisoning, for example ("If they want to serve dangerous food, that's their choice. No-one forced them to eat it")

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FredP
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 20:17
Everybody knows coffee is hot.Doesn't matter how hot.If I burn myself with coffee (and I have) it's my own stupidity.

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MIDN90
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 20:30
Quote: "If we follow your logic, imagine the implications for food poisoning, for example ("If they want to serve dangerous food, that's their choice. No-one forced them to eat it")"


Food poisoning is completely irrelevant to hot coffee. They have letter grades they give to the restaurants based on food quality. Meaning A is the best, and anything lower means you may want to avoid the food there. The letter grade is always in plain view and from there it's the customers choice to go there or not.
Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 20:41
Quote: "Second..... Lawyers. If "DO NOT PLACE HOT COFFEE CUP BETWEEN KNEES AND ATTEMPT TO REMOVE COVER WITH ONE HAND!" wasn't printed on the cup in big, bold, red letters, then they have a case."


After that lawsuit McDonalds do cover themselves for anybody that wants to try to sue them for hot coffee again. Every drive-through window has a sticker on it that says "Warning: Coffee is hot!". So now if they sell hot lava in a cup again they can point to the sign and say "You can't sue us... you were warned.".

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 20:53
Sorry, but I'm going to have to say that it's a foolish answer.

So I take it, it's the lady's fault because she wanted to eat at McDonalds, bought a coffee, unknowing of its dangerous temperature, spills it by accident, severely scolds herself, worse than any 'normal' cup of coffee would, so much so that it required hospital treatment. It's her fault because McDonalds can serve their food and drink to what standard their wish without consequence, even if it's dangerous to their customers? If she doesn't like dangerously cups of coffee, then she shouldn't have bought a coffee from McDonalds in the first place.

You see no problem with that?

Food poisoning is still relevant, you may get a food rating in the US, but not everywhere has a rating visible to customers in the UK, some restuarant wills put on a sign how its rated - like the AA ratings. But even so, the rating is still irrelevant, because regardless of a food rating, they could still give somebody dangerous food and if the customer suffers badly as a result they can get into trouble.

The logic still applies. It's not even normal for McDonalds to serve coffee like that.

Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Aug 2009 21:00
Quote: "Food poisoning is completely irrelevant to hot coffee. They have letter grades they give to the restaurants based on food quality. Meaning A is the best, and anything lower means you may want to avoid the food there. The letter grade is always in plain view and from there it's the customers choice to go there or not."


Somehow I don't think restaurants are graded on how likely you are to get food poisoning there. If the practices are not up to standards they will get in trouble.

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