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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / DarkBasic Pro reviewed in Game Developer magazine

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AlecM
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Posted: 26th Aug 2003 23:45
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Page 10 of september 2003 has a review for DBP in it. I can't seem to find a score but i will post the pros and cons.

Pros:
1. Simplifies access to all aspects of DirectX
2. Allows you to quickly get an Idea up and running
3. Once the framwork is in place designers can treat it just like scripting

Cons:
1. Requires CD or USB dongle to eb inserted in the machine at all times.
2. Can be clumsy to express some ideas due to lack of object-oriented features.
3. Lack of professional production features that could make it difficult to integrate in to a proffessional development environment.

Goto http://www.shellshockede.com
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AlecM
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Posted: 26th Aug 2003 23:47
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my mistake. I found the score.

DBP scored 4/5 which is listed as "Very Good" (with patch 4 too)

Goto http://www.shellshockede.com
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Dr OcCuLt
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Posted: 27th Aug 2003 01:50
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4 out of 5 is real "Very Good" from magazine for proffessional Developers.

the con number 1 is a bit of nit pinking a bit.but the last 2 are true.

--Dr 0--
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DrakeX
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Posted: 27th Aug 2003 07:08
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"Requires CD or USB dongle to eb inserted in the machine at all times"

they lie! they lie!

i don't see why they take $50 of peoples' money for the dongle when there is a very easy and perfectly legal workaround in the registry that takes 1 minute. no, 30 seconds. 15 seconds!!

stop looking at me!
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heartbone
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Posted: 27th Aug 2003 07:49
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Cons #1. bogus.
Cons #2, BS.
Cons #3, bogus.
But exactly what I would expect to see in a retail magazine named "Game Developer".

For appearances they had to say something critical. I'm surprised that they didn't complain about the lack of the make game object.

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
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David T
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Posted: 27th Aug 2003 16:46
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Quote: ""Requires CD or USB dongle to eb inserted in the machine at all times""


Well not at all times, I olny need it maybe once a week, if i'm developing and compiling every day.

There's no place like 127.0.0.1

There are 10 people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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the_winch
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Posted: 27th Aug 2003 21:19
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Imagine the trouble if every program used by the developer required a cd, In a big project with lots of people you would be losing an unacceptable ammount of man hours just changing cds.

Anyway it's proberly one of those useless industry magazines whos primary goal is to sell advertising space.
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David T
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Posted: 27th Aug 2003 21:37
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I can't agree more

There's no place like 127.0.0.1

There are 10 people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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AlecM
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Posted: 27th Aug 2003 22:55
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"Anyway it's proberly one of those useless industry magazines whos primary goal is to sell advertising space."

It’s funny to see a bunch of amateurs calling game developer magazine useless. I know people who have saved every issue from the last 8 years because there are some fantastic articles in it.

Goto http://www.shellshockede.com
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Master Gamer
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Posted: 27th Aug 2003 23:12 Edited at: 27th Aug 2003 23:13
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What's the name of the magazine? I foound a "review" in Gamepro. The title was Meet Your Maker, and it listed toolkits which you could make video games in easily, without knowing any code.

I have my own website and forum. If you'd like, check it out.
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doclar1
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Posted: 27th Aug 2003 23:46
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You can see the magazine here...

http://www.gdmag.com


Sometimes they do have some great articles, and supply some
interesting information.

----
Warm Regards,
Lawrence D.F.Sr.
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DMXtra
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 03:36 Edited at: 28th Aug 2003 03:38
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Thats great, DBPro got some good coverage from a major Game Developer magazine, 4/5 isn't bad at all. I will take that any day.

Number 2 con has a point, as far as organizaton goes, but thats something for the future.

You should frame that article for the TGC team

If I was making a language like DBPro, this is the kind of coverage that I would want. Nice going... shweeeeet!

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 05:03
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Cons:
Quote: "1. Requires CD or USB dongle to eb inserted in the machine at all times."


not all the time, and professionals are used to using dongles but for a programming language this is a little unacceptable

Quote: "2. Can be clumsy to express some ideas due to lack of object-oriented features."


couldn't agree more

Quote: "3. Lack of professional production features that could make it difficult to integrate in to a proffessional development environment."


this is more actually due to the IDE currently being used, the lack of CVS or SafeSource for professional programmers is a HUGE problem ... also the IDE itself having bugs doesn't bode well in a professional environment, as it is annoying to quite and end up finding out half you work hasn't been saved, not allowed to open more than a 2 instances (first can be opened without a project, second can be opened with a project), no room for multiple projects, in ability to compile DLL code or dbp version of a DLL which means everything must be encapsulated into a single executable rather than being able to be spread into bitesize sections.

there are many many more reasons why it isn't likely a professional house will ever truely choose DBP over C w/OpenGL or C++ w/DirectX
and the lack of being able to use ASM inline as well as being able to use C/C++ Libraries natively also doesn't help.

-- --

those point are actually why i wouldn't class DBP as a programming language as such yet, still more of a scripter language ... although it does export machine code, the fact that it cannot create self sufficient dependancies and must all be within a single encapsulation as well as not being able to natively take advantage of different CPU types really makes it a one trick pony, essentially making it truely only any good for creating games which don't require complex engines or relying heavily upon new technologies at all.

Although sure you can create applications it certainly isn't by far really the best language for achieveing them within.
Personally think that TGC could learn alot from PureBasic's design, and PureBasic could learn alot from DarkBasic's syntax & indepth 3d engine.
If they could combine what they both had we'd have a pretty remarkable BASIC language on our hand with easy to use syntax yet the depth that come with more seasoned languages like C.

-- --

its not to say that DBP won't be used professionally for actual games development, it's just i don't really see it being a choice if a development company has another option.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 12:12
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Dont forget that most of us are still using single processor computers - its a bit of a pain trying to get dual processors (plus the extra effort needed to use both).

Unfortunately its looking increasingly likely that the extra bits needed to fix the IDE wont be done (by Guy at any rate)...


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APEXnow
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 12:24
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Off topic, but if the interface for firing up the compiler, and how it interacts was documented, I would actually spend the time to write my own editor.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 15:53
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There are alternative editors in the works.

"Gentlemen, we have short-circuited the Universe!"
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Ian T
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 17:17
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I have to agree with all those Cons actually. The CD insertion thing is a bit of a pain. However, by the time patch 6-7 is out, I bet the other two will be null and void

--Mouse

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Dr OcCuLt
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 19:38 Edited at: 28th Aug 2003 19:40
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i do`t think so object-oriented wood be very hard to put in to a language that not baset on it.

you may have to wait till patch 10-11 or until next from of DB comes out.

--Dr 0--
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Guyon
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 20:52
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Any chance that one of the "alternative editors in the works" would be more visual?

I would love to make a text or image box on a back ground and have my test and pictures in the box.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 22:29
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Your thinking along the lines of a resource editor, I bet - have a word with RobK - see what he can do.


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David T
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 22:39 Edited at: 28th Aug 2003 22:39
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What would be nice would be classes We sort of got there with types, but maybe something like:



Sort of bulding on types, just a type with functions attached to it as well

Theres no place like 127.0.0.1
There are 10 people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't
Bus station = where bus stops. Train station = where train stops. Workstation = ?
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 22:41
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Classes are inherently OO though and DB isn't/won't be in this revision at least. I say if you're going to support OO then do it properly, totally and utterly. True polymorphism, inheritance, extensions, etc. The way C# does it, not the way VB hacked it on.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we have short-circuited the Universe!"
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David T
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 22:44
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(Quick reply! )

Would be possible for us to have functions within types like above in the near future? It'd make life a lot easier

Theres no place like 127.0.0.1
There are 10 people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't
Bus station = where bus stops. Train station = where train stops. Workstation = ?
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Bulleyes
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 09:37
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Actually, I think most developer don't required the full fledge OO language feature. For me, what I really need is able to encapsulate functions and data in a UDT. With this available, a comprehensive way of manipulating UDT is necessary as well, such as passing UDT into function (already available), return UDT out from function, and even pass by reference.

Again, this is just my suggestion. I would suggest DBpro put this in the future language enhancement after most critical bugs are squashed. Right now, I had my own workaround to make my program more OO like.

Bad Nose Entertainment - Where games are forged from the flames of talent and passion.

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UberTuba
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 11:43
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giving db oo would make it a far more proffesional language yes,
but would make it that much harder to use for people that havent
programmed before.DBpro is simple
you could look at a piece of dbpro code and guess what it does with
no programming experience.
with c++ you take a lot longer to learn the basics, and there are
far more niggles from being an older language (a==b)

the artist formally known as darkfluff
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ChipOne
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 02:02
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Quote: "The way C# does it, not the way VB hacked it on"


Rich, i hope you're meaning interface-based inheritance in VB6...VB.NET is great and completely OO. we use both extensively in the business apps we develop.

if you disagree, i'll take you to task in another thread.

-= i only do what my rice krispies tell me to do =-
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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 02:24
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David89:

Ok i'm curious. Mind explaining why Functions in UDT would be useful ?

Kevin Picone
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 02:36
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Richard Davey

Quote: "Classes are inherently OO though and DB isn't/won't be in this revision at least. I say if you're going to support OO then do it properly, totally and utterly. True polymorphism, inheritance, extensions, etc. The way C# does it, not the way VB hacked it on.
"


Surely you mean VB6 and lower! If you meant vb.NET in that comment then you know very little about VB.NET, and any of the .NET framework languages altogether, and should not speak.

-RUST-
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Rob K
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 03:21
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Quote: "Surely you mean VB6 and lower! If you meant vb.NET in that comment then you know very little about VB.NET, and any of the .NET framework languages altogether, and should not speak."


The term VB normally refers to VB6. Normally VB.NET is mentioned when referring to Visual Basic .NET.

As you claim to be in a knowing position - Could you clarify the differences between OOB in VB and C# / VB.NET? I found the Microsoft .NET intro docs a bit bewildering.


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Mattman
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 03:53
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I just got the hang of OO when i learned Java and VB. i like it

I think if there was to be a 3rd DB, add OOP!

I think it should be added with a patch even as it is DB "Pro", and professional languages usually use OO.

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Rob K
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 05:00
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You cannot just hack OO onto a language like that. Even if you only wanted it as an add-on, it would be a major change, and it can't and won't be done with DBPro.


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Mattman
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 06:20
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obviously. I just meant it as it would be nice if it was possible, to add it on.

Got a knack for finding secrets??? Jingot Racing --- A new brand of Racing --- Only from Nightwatch Studios

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 07:05
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Quote: "Ok i'm curious. Mind explaining why Functions in UDT would be useful ?"


perhaps he wants classes (an inheritance of an OO language)
personally i just want functions to export Structured Types and Arrays within Structured types ... once we have that i'll be happy with the level of OO we have.

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ifman1
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 14:36
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How about UDT's with methods... I would love to be able to have all my functions for a specific type, or class built into it. Would be great for creating my own model format.... yeah...


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Rob K
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 16:51
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Quote: "once we have that i'll be happy with the level of OO we have."


DBP doesn't have any OO features at all as yet. I wouldn't really call UDTs objects, they are just grouped data. You cannot perform any OO tasks on them.


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