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FPSC Classic Product Chat / TGC store media in commercial games

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chidem
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Posted: 14th Sep 2009 23:28
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Hi All

I know this has come up before but for the life of me I cannot find the appropriate threads. I am sure I read that before releasing a game commercially you must first email the creators of TGC media to inform them you are doing so (though where does it say this?). Is this the case? Has anyone some insight?

Pioneering - Website: http://www.huntersofkentucky.com
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Bigsnake
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 00:01
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No , You shouldnt have to email TGC and ask them if you can use stuff from the store, as long as you got it legally (Even if you bought it in something like ebay ) then you have all rights to use it

My FPSC Fansite - http://fpsc.freephpbb3.com/index.php
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Mugen
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 00:20
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I'm pretty sure you don't. By legally purchasing FPSCreator, you are also purchasing a license which grants you permission to sell any game you create with that software.

Mugen is the name pal, Ya got that?
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Thraxas
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 00:31
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YES you do have to contact the creators of the media you buy from the TGC store.

It tells you how to do it in the item license for the items you have bought from the store. The easiest way to see the item licenses is from within FPSC. Go to Help -> View Item Licenses.

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Scurvy Lobster
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 00:31
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Make sure to actually read the license files. They are in the FPSC folder.

Quote: "COMMERCIAL LICENCE OFFER
This document represents an irrevocable offer made by the Seller (as defined below) to the Customer (as defined below) to enter into a legally binding contract on the terms described below.

This offer is irrevocable and may be accepted at any time by the Customer notifying the Seller of its acceptance of the offer. Notification may be made by sending an email to the email address below with the full name of the Customer in the subject line followed by the words "accepts the commercial licence terms for ankh".

The email address is: xxxxx

Goes on..."


Running my latest game superbly on FPSC and Project Blue Mod.
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crumbaker
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 00:53 Edited at: 15th Sep 2009 01:03
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me giving you money means we have agreed to whatever terms you have put into the license. This is how it works everywhere else you buy models.

If I have to email the seller, then ask after I've given them money... that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Looks like I won't be buying anything from the store and I doubt many others would have already, had they known this either.

Now if you don't have to ask, you don't have to notify as well. Notify isn't something you can put into a contract. Why is this you ask? Simple, say a person decides to sue because they weren't notified that a person was using their model in a game. The judge asks if the person had permission. Well he doesn't have to ask he just has to notify me. The case wouldn't even be heard, due to implied permission. If you don't have to ask you don't have to notify. It's the same with using the word miscellaneous in a contract.

Sometimes I feel like this software is more of a toy then a real game engine. This type of stuff isn't seen in the professional world.
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Thraxas
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 00:58
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You're not asking after you have given them money. They can't say no, it's just the commercial license doesn't come into effect until you have emailed them. It's not difficult and won't take more than 20 seconds of your time.

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xplosys
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 01:28
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It just amazes me the number of lawyers and judges that are using this program, although many of them can't read well or understand big words.

Brian.

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chidem
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 01:28
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Thanks for the clarification Thraxas - knew I had read that somewhere. I do agree that it is a little inconvenient, crumbaker, but only a little - the models are, of course, all worth it!

That said, I do think this condition should be made more explicit by TGC - like I said, it's not unreasonable but I almost overlooked this. Though, like you said, I should have looked at the license. Not criticising, just making an observation.

Pioneering - Website: http://www.huntersofkentucky.com
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xplosys
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 01:33
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Some of the content sold on the TGC store is severely under-priced. Letting the creator know when his content is going commercial just puts a feather in his cap, so to speak, and allows him to add another "I did this" to his resume.

Any intelligent person who reads the license agreement and abides by it will send the email, and keep a copy in his or her records to avoid any issues down the road. The amount of time, effort and money you put into creating, deploying and selling a game demands that you take this small step.

Brian.

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crumbaker
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 02:05 Edited at: 15th Sep 2009 02:08
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my point is this doesn't happen anywhere else, and there's no reason for tgc to add this in, unless the seller specifically wants it in. I'm buying it I don't really owe the person anything. Free stuff is a whole other issue.

If anything it would make sense for you to have to credit the person in your game, I could understand that. The problem is I don't want to track down every seller and email them if I'm on the store buying multiple items from multiple people, it's a pointless nuisance.

I may complain quite a bit but I see a real future in this software if it's treated and used in the professional manner it should be. The gui is great as is the editor and the idea of the store. Little quirks like this no matter how benign hurt the image overall.
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xplosys
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 02:55
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Quote: "The problem is I don't want to track down every seller and email them if I'm on the store buying multiple items from multiple people, it's a pointless nuisance."


You don't have to track anyone down. Their contact info is in the license agreement.

Quote: "I may complain quite a bit but I see a real future in this software if it's treated and used in the professional manner it should be."


Just because you don't agree with the license agreement, doesn't mean that it's not professional. Everyone knows that if you don't agree with the license agreement, you don't use the software/content. It's always been that way.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but the sun-of-a-gun keeps getting up for more.

Brian.

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crumbaker
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 04:35
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maybe because this son of a gun is right. Name one other source for getting 3d models or any sort of software that asks you to do something like this.


It doesn't make any sense, and is a waste of time. Kind of like signing your name on your posts.
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xplosys
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 05:26
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You're right.

Brian.

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Silvester
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 07:25 Edited at: 15th Sep 2009 07:25
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Other 3D Media resources often let you accept user-determined licenses up front, OR let's the up loader agree with the default license of that site, which the down loader also has to agree with. So in theory you still have to 'accept' their license, it's just in the registration for instead of an e-mail. Since there's many items in here they probably left out a license agreement screen to reduce stress on the server(Downloading more data means more stress, in case anyone is going to be arguing on that.)


EDP Map Editor[2D]
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chidem
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 10:44
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Quote: "maybe because this son of a gun is right. Name one other source for getting 3d models or any sort of software that asks you to do something like this.


It doesn't make any sense, and is a waste of time. Kind of like signing your name on your posts. "


Crumbaker, it's nothing - half an hour of your day before your game goes live and, like Brian said, it's a nice feather in the cap of the medai creators and they really do deserve it as there are some amazing models out there for a tiny price

Pioneering - Website: http://www.huntersofkentucky.com
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Thraxas
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 11:23
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Quote: "The problem is I don't want to track down every seller and email them if I'm on the store buying multiple items from multiple people, it's a pointless nuisance."


All the licenses are stored in one folder which is 2 clicks away while you're in FPSC itself.

If you're making a commercial quality game then obviously you would have spent a fair amount of time creating it. Sending a few emails before its release shouldn't be too much of a problem.

It's a shame you won't be buying anything from the store because of this, as there is some fantastic quality media for extremely cheap prices.

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xplosys
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 15:57
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Once you dispel all of the misconceptions....

Quote: "me giving you money means we have agreed to whatever terms you have put into the license."


His first statement, and very true. The problem is that he never read the license agreement. If he had, he certainly would not have used this argument.

Quote: "If I have to email the seller, then ask after I've given them money... that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard."


Once again, he has not read the license. You don't have to ask. You have an irrevocable offer. You only have to inform.

Quote: "my point is this doesn't happen anywhere else, and there's no reason for tgc to add this in, unless the seller specifically wants it in."


The license agreement is between you and the artist. It has nothing to do with TGC.

...then all that's left is his opinion that informing the artist that his content is about to be used in a commercial title is not professional and too much trouble. Opinions are not right or wrong, they are just opinions. If that's what he believes, then he's right.

Brian.

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Errant AI
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 18:11
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I agree it's a pain in the butt and I don't like how it's implemented (There should just be an "I agree to blablabla" check-box when you download something, IMO) but I'm sure there are legal reasons for this.

One of the possible issues is that you need to be 18 to even be able to accept the commercial offer. Another is (maybe it's mentioned in the license offer doc and I don't recall) is that it doesn't really outline what a commercial project is. I think the commercial threshold for X10 is like 250,000 USD in sales or something like that (might be confused with another game engine). So, maybe that pretty much rules out anyone working with FPSC... I dunno.

I know my GCS media has been used in many compos and I have thousands of sales but to date I've only been notified by two or maybe three developers and none of them have followed the guidelines for notification. That tells me that there's a flaw in the implementation of the license acceptance procedure.

I'd like to see the system changed because it's a waste of my time when well-meaning developers contact me for "permission" and I have to explain the license and hand-hold them through the process.
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Cyborg ART
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 18:19
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I agree with Errant AI...

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Slow Programmer
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 21:43
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I have bought a few things from the online store, but am only using it for my own game that will never be sold so I have never worried about the license. A couple of questions comes to mind after reading this thread though. Can I read the license before I buy the model? If not can I get a refund on the points if I don't agree with the license?
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Kravenwolf
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 23:25 Edited at: 15th Sep 2009 23:29
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Quote: "It doesn't make any sense, and is a waste of time. "


Quote: "It's not difficult and won't take more than 20 seconds of your time."


Though I do agree with Errant here in some points, if you're willing to spend months and months (even years) creating a commercial game, it certainly wouldn't kill you to spend twenty minutes emailing the artists.


Quote: "Kind of like signing your name on your posts."


That doesn't even take two seconds (and is irrelevant anyway)...how much spare time do you want to have on your hands?


Quote: " Name one other source for getting 3d models or any sort of software that asks you to do something like this."


Name one other 3D modeling source that offers high quality media for pennies on the dollar. Errant and Bond1 could be selling their media on Turbosquid (before the...incident) or elsewhere for $50.00-$150.00 each, but everyone here gets to sidestep those commercial prices and pay only $3.00-$5.00 per model. And it seems all you have to be willing to do in exchange is send out a few emails if you ever want to sell your game. To me, this seems more than worth the twenty minutes it would take to notify the authors.


Quote: "Can I read the license before I buy the model? If not can I get a refund on the points if I don't agree with the license? "


The licenses are all the same.


Kravenwolf

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 23:42 Edited at: 15th Sep 2009 23:53
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Quote: "The easiest way to see the item licenses is from within FPSC. Go to Help -> View Item Licenses."

Nice info Thraxas, and even better feature.

Quote: "All the licenses are stored in one folder which is 2 clicks away while you're in FPSC itself."

Yeah, I found the hard copy by navigation but I'll try the editor option next time I look at them.

Quote: "If I have to email the seller, then ask after I've given them money... that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard."

On the commercial releases, and yes it makes perfect sense.
If you created models that a developer was going to be releasing in a commercial game, then wouldn't you want to know?
Saying "my models have appeared in games like AAAtitleOne and AAAtitleTwo" sounds much better than saying "I'm not sure which games my models are in".
It gives the artist a chance to get recognition for all of their hard work, so they can go farther in their endeavor.

Quote: "my point is this doesn't happen anywhere else, and there's no reason for tgc to add this in, unless the seller specifically wants it in."

TGC is the seller, but I understand you were pointing at the creator not the distributor.
If the artist doesn't agree with TGC's policy, then they have the option to decline the deal. (just like users can with the license)
If you don't want to send an email (less effort than this arguement) then don't use the media in a commercial project.


EDIT
Quote: "Letting the creator know when his content is going commercial just puts a feather in his cap, so to speak, and allows him to add another "I did this" to his resume."

I must have overlooked this, because I said the same thing basically, but your way sounds much better.

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crumbaker
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 00:52 Edited at: 16th Sep 2009 01:02
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ok I'm done arguing it just seems pointless to me and has no basis legally.

What happened at turbosquid? I was thinking about trying to sell my models there.
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Kravenwolf
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 01:05
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Quote: "For those of you who have either been in the dark, or are unaffected; there is growing concern over the largest online vendor of 3D stock media: Turbosquid. It seems that TS has decided they want to quash any and all competition with their latest move....called "SquidGuild". As of September 1st (2009), all non-"Guild" members will have their rates reduced from an already low 50%...to a mere 40%; unless you choose to go exclusive with Turbosquid. If you go with the exclusive deal, you can net a cool 60%....when you reach a lifetime sale-level of $10,000!


What does exclusivity mean for you?

What does "exclusivity" involve? For starters, you can't sell your work on any other site but Turbosquid. Other items of interest are:

- You must pull down any and all work that you are selling on other sites.

- You can sell any work that TurboSquid deems "unworthy" for showing on TS (no criteria set forth on that one).

- Any account you have on another vendor site (using "rejected" content) must be under a different name...Turbosquid doesn't want you using the same brand as you do on their site.

- You are free to quit the "guild" at any time, but you must wait 30 days to be able to post on any other site (I've heard rumors of backdoor deals that may keep you locked in for a full 12 months); after which, you cannot sign back up for another 90 days.

- If you have a personal site to sell your work (that is also sold on Turbosquid), and it is created after August 2009...you must either take it down, or empty it of exclusive Turbosquid (that's right...it's pretty much theirs now...even for a full 30 days after you quit) content. [ ... ]"


Kravenwolf

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crumbaker
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 01:43
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hmm interesting, so if you don't go guild you can still sell the models that are on turbosquid anywhere you like, but are reduced to 40%? Am I reading that right?
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