Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / CoZ's: 'Humane' CQC system

Author
Message
creator of zombies
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Feb 2006
Location: UK: West Wales
Posted: 15th Sep 2009 23:13 Edited at: 16th Sep 2009 23:59
CoZ's HumaneSystem


Welcome All!. This is my post covering my more humane version of my CQC system. As Keith C stated in my previous self defence topic, this is not the place where I shall be describing moves regarding kill chokes or strikes, so If you are expecting brtality, look elsewhere.
In this post, I shall be covering:
*The main aspects of what exactly happens in a real self defence situation.
*What to do if your jumped and how to react accordingly
*How to counter a lapel grab
*How to counter a bear hug/A rear grab
*Basic striking principles.


I'm going to attempt to keep this thread and it's contents as humane as posible. I shall not be handing out instructions on how seriously injure your opponent. I also want to point out, that a confrontation should always be avoided If possible!. If you can see an escape route...Run!. This should only be used as a last resort.
However, If you would like a more complete version of this course, please email me. I am also hoping to set up some live training video's over the next couple of months.
Right then....forget any martial arts moves you have seen, I'm just going to teach you what works.

About Me
I have trained in Aikido, Wadu Ruy Karate and Muai thai for several years, as well as being trained in Unarmed combatatives. What I shall be outlining today is a mixture of VERY simple techniques taken from a mixture of Aikido, Muai thai and a few unarmed combat moves thrown in (I'm goiing to stay away from unarmed combat in the forum course, because it's considered too brutal for this audience). All of the information listed here has been used in real life situations, and has proven to be 100% effective.

[1]: What Happens in a real self defence situation?
This is a question that I have had many people ask me over the years. Some ask what the best course of action is when they encounter their appointment with unexspected violence.
Most students are lead to believe that a physical confrontation will start with both parties adopting a fighting stance at over an arms length distance away from each other. In reality, If you are walking home from work, and someone jumps out at you, even if you know hundreds of stances, you probably wont have time to adopt any of them. In this case, simply rase your hands to about head level to protect yourself, then immediately go on the offensive. (I shall cover striking principles later on)
If you do have time to adopt a stance, your stance should that of a basic Muai thai stance. Stand with your feet roughlt shoulder width apart, with your weaker leg slightly infront. Then extend your arms outwards at a 45 degree angle, whilst remembering to keep your hands open (All effective combat is conducted with open palms). Your rear hand should be back covering your chin, whilst your lead hand is out in front. Keep your feet firm on the ground, but be careful not to become ridgid. Do not however bounce up and down like a kid on a bounce castle because a well trained fighter will sweep your feet from under you.

[2]How to excape from a bear Hug
For a non lethal method, this works wonders. If you are grabbed around the waist or midsection from behind, and have been lifted off the floor...Simply conduct a running motion whilst in mid air. This may sound stupid, but whilst running in this position, your feet will strike your opponents knees or groin section. If your elbows arent pinned, your arms with strike your opponents sternum and solar plexus causing him to release his grip either way.
Once the grip has loosened, you can deploy your elbows as strikes to the jaw, or simply run.

[3]Countering a Lapel grab
If you are grabbed by the lapel by one or both hands, simply push back sharply on your opponents chin using one of your free hands. This will force his head back, causing him to fall, or at least opening up his body to strikes etc. This moves works on the tested principle that: "Where the head goes, the body will follow".

[4]What to do if your attacked my more than one person.. Ill use 2 in this case.
Firstly, it's vital to note that you should remain switched on at all times, and always be aware of whats going on around you, especially in areas of which there are an increased risk of attack. If you are not aware of whats going on around you, by the time something bad happens, it will be too late.
This would be considered as a last resort, and only if there is no escape route. Firstly, walk up to the most aggressive of the two with a calm mannor and body language and ask him a question such as "How are your lot doing these days". The stranger the question, the more time it will buy you. Iv'e also found out that it's also effective to simulate the motion of writing or something similar with one of your free hands whilst asking the sentence. The attacker (and he will..trust me), pause for a seccond or two whilst he thinks about what the hell you just said. As soon as this happens lash out.
If he's in your face, use your elbows to swing a few strikes into his jaw. It's important to keep your arm relaxed because tense muscles move more slowly. Speed is the key..rather than brute power here. Also, always remember the double tap rule. One shot causes damage, two shots causes double the damage. Always strike twice or more if you have time. Im not going to go into too much detail here because I dont want the thread to get locked, but if the attacker lifts his hands to cover his face, whip your elbow or fist up into the centre of his chest to hit the solar plexus.
When he begins to go down (and he will)STOP!, You dont want to kill him. At this point, his friend will either: run, or will want to seriously grind your face on the floor.
Now, look the next guy in the eye and say something like "Hospital! Now!". Of course that isnt true, but they dont know that. At this point, it's safter to just leg it since the other attacker will most probably be concerned for his fellow friend.
[Im going to stop here. I can't really explain much more without it getting nasty]

[5] Striking Principles

At clost range, you can use elbow strikes which are the most effective. If you are at a futher distance, then you can use any part of your forearm to strike, or use your feet to target the groin area. The most important aspect is to NEVER stop striking until your opponent goes down. Once this happens, you can then run!.

And There you go!..., the beginning of a Humane self defence system that wont get you killed, or kill your attacker.

In the next post, I shall be covering:
*The arm bar
*The unbendable arm
*Ground fighting
*Nerve shock techniques
*Effective techniques to subdue an aggressive attacker to avoid a confrontation in the first place.

Until then..Stay safe

CoZ





-Demon Sun: Lead Developer-
Dead Man's Cradle: Lead Developer
Juzi
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Mar 2007
Location: Finland
Posted: 15th Sep 2009 23:31
That "say something weird" trick is really clever! I think I'm actually going to use it in some situations. How does this sound: "Is your mother's car tired?"

Revelation leading to my psychosis and inspiration.
creator of zombies
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Feb 2006
Location: UK: West Wales
Posted: 16th Sep 2009 00:04
@Juzi: Thanks for the feedback! Yep, that would work...the more off topic the better.

Keep your comments coming! I'd like to know what you guys think about me developing this futher etc

CoZ

-Demon Sun: Lead Developer-
Dead Man's Cradle: Lead Developer
Storm4
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Dec 2008
Location:
Posted: 16th Sep 2009 00:08
CoZ, I'm confused. I thought you made a post somewhere here that you were taking a long break from the forums of TGC. Just wondering what is going on.

On Topic: this sounds like a good idea. I'll watch this.

www.storm4.webs.com
lazerus
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Apr 2008
Location:
Posted: 16th Sep 2009 00:15
That is a very intresting tactic.

I always screw around with my friends by doing stuff like that. I never thought of using it in this way. I normally do it to distract them while in the dinner line. Especially if i want the last sandwich.

Very informative.

Id rather incapacitate them, a quite strike to the stomach area winds them, they croutch/fetal posistion from that you can ethier knock them out, or injure them. Though i really dont recommend it, due to its agressivness it should be only used in case of your life being in danger.

While there clutching thier stomach, they are very open. Bring your knee up against the chin and the shock should keep them imobilised. This method took me a while to correct, as it can casue damage to yourself if not done right.

If a Mod finds this ill appropriate please edit freely, I cant see this really being a problem.

____
-Laz



"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes..."
http://lazerus-reborn.deviantart.com/
Image All
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Dec 2005
Location: Home
Posted: 16th Sep 2009 00:25
I'm curious about the source of these techniques, are they related to W. E. Fairnbairn's tactics at all?


Remember those old guys? They made epic renders, I think one of them was called DaVinci, and all they used was MS Paint. Sometimes it's just skill....
Sid Sinister
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jul 2005
Location:
Posted: 16th Sep 2009 00:48
Great read and great advice. I am a red belt in Tang Soo Doo, but haven't been in it for several years. Your post was a great refresher! I look forward to your future posts!

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
Current Project: http://strewnfield.wordpress.com/ (Last updated 06/11/09)
Drew Cameron
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Jan 2004
Location: Scotland
Posted: 16th Sep 2009 02:13
I hate to be a weiner, but people who think they are good at fighting or try to do fancy stuff always end getting served in my humble experience.

The "say something weird" advice is good though, the rest is pretty obvious. It is refreshing to see you acknolwedge the fact that fight moves you learn in classes etc are mostly useless in real situations.

creator of zombies
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Feb 2006
Location: UK: West Wales
Posted: 16th Sep 2009 09:35 Edited at: 16th Sep 2009 09:36
@Storm4: Well, in essence I am taking a break. Uni doesn't demand me to be active 24 hours a day so I always get a chance to get online and post something.

Quote: "I'm curious about the source of these techniques, are they related to W. E. Fairnbairn's tactics at all?"

Not directly. I was taught my Unarmed combatatives by Ex SAS combatatives instrustors a few years back.
The problem is that the last time I made a thread on teaching only Unarmed combat in this forum, Keith C locked it because it was too brutal. If anyone however, wishes to have a complete crash course on unarmed combat etc then they can email me.
Sure, I could of listed more brutal ways of dealing with this stuff, but this forum is mainly populated by youngsters, So it would be inappropriate.

@Drew Cameron: Thanks. Iv'e tried to keep this as humane as possible due to the youngsters, although I do have a very brutal version of this course which would be inappriate mention here. I might throw in a few moves at the end of this forum course just for information only (although I wont be telling you how to do them a such)

Stay tuned

CoZ


-Demon Sun: Lead Developer-
Dead Man's Cradle: Lead Developer
Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 16th Sep 2009 15:17
I thought it read fine. Nothing sounded like bad advice. It all sounds like it's work reasonably well, which makes a nice change. Normally it's impractical rubbish.

I'm glad you mentioned to strike first, as that, in my opinion, is the hardest part. Find yourself in a confrontation, and you'll most likely want to do absolutely ANYTHING to avoid fighting (because you'll be scared), but you have to be honest with yourself. If you know you're going to get beaten down, then you have to get in there first, and like you said, never stop attacking until they are out of commission.

djmaster
User Banned
Posted: 16th Sep 2009 18:09
Hmm gotta try that tommorow.

[href]http://sites.google.com/site/chargedstudios/home[href]
"Im British you muppet!"-Psycho
creator of zombies
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Feb 2006
Location: UK: West Wales
Posted: 16th Sep 2009 19:12 Edited at: 17th Sep 2009 00:01
Part 2:How to drop the attacker before he drops you

Iv'e decided to change the contents of this chapter completely and cover the rest at a later date due to frankly,I'm now going to teach you what they dont teach you in the martial arts. If you are attacked by someone who's bigger,stronger or well armed and trained, there is a only a handfull of simple techniques that willguarantee he is first to hit the deck (And No, this doesn't mean you are going to kill them). I shall howevr mention that for the perpose of the forum course, I shall be leaving out the kill strikes.
Right then, lets get started!

What they dont teach you in the Martial arts
Before I start, I would like to mention that I'm not going to bash martial arts into the ground (due to I have undertaken many myself), but with the exception of Muai thai, Mostly all TMA's (Traditional Martial Arts) etc will not work effectively in a high pressure, stress street fight situation when your adrenaline is surging, and your heart is beating rapidly. The reason for this is the fact that when the "Fight or Flight" system kicks in, your fine motor skills go out the window, your breathing becomes short and rapid, and lack of oxygen causes tunnel vision. Add this together with the fact that most martial arts techniques are taught in a safe, controled enviroment (A dojo), and with a co-operating attacker, where which your complex, technical moves will work wonders. But out there, I can almost guarantee your fancy wrist locks will get you your backside handed to you.
I know like many (and myself a few years back), martial arts can make you feel invincible, but you have to face the harsh fact that your complex techniques you learn in a dojo will not work on the street, and this is coming from a guy who's dedicated alot of his life to several styles of MA. Remember: Simple = Effective. The techniques Im teaching you are simple, quick, (sometimes Brutal) and effective. I have used the below (and above) principles in real street or self defence situations.

What they DONT teach you!
*In 99% of self defence situations where the attacker uses his hands etc, the rule is: The CLOSER you are, theSAFER you are. Now this doesnt mean go and hug the guy (this is suicide if he has a knife in his hand), but the closer you are inside his personal space when attacking the better. You can then deploy your elbows to his jaw or temple, or edge of hand strikes to his neck. If you want to keep your distance, a quick whipped kick to the groin with surfice. You can then move in with your other attacks etc.
In the event of a knife, there are 2 things you can do. The first is always the best...RUN!. The seccond, and this is only is your in a dire emergency, pick up anything such as backpack if available, and use it as a shield for his knife stabs. If you dont have a bag, then throw dirt or stones at his eyes to distract and blind the attacker, or use anything you have on you such as an umbrella or a pen (Key's etc) to strike the eyes or throat. It's worth noting at this point that if you happen to have a newspaper, and you have a few moments, fold the newspaper up as tightly as posible, and as small as possible. If you swing in at someones head, it will cause a suprising amount of damage. If you dont have time to do this, throw the newspaper at his face as a distraction. This will give you time to make your escape or plan your next attack.

* If your going to hit someone at close quaters, ALWAYS hold them in place ( place one of your hands on the back of their neck etc). This will make sure the attacker cant get away, and it also makes your strike to the chin etc with a palm strike or fist alot more effective, and will nearly always guarantee a KO, or at least a knock down. Rememer to really move in close to him when doing this. This closes any distance he has to attack you with his other hand. The reason this isn't taught in MA it's because it's too dangerous for the sport.
*You have all heard the term below the belt, and this is one of the most effective techniques you can use to break a hold or during close quarters fighting. A light slap upwards etc to the groin, will be enough to stop or slow an attacker so you can run, or plan your next move.

* The eyes are also an effective target, and a finger jab to the eyes will allow you to make your escape etc.

Thats all for now. Expect more this evening....Let me know what you guys think

CoZ

-Demon Sun: Lead Developer-
Dead Man's Cradle: Lead Developer
djmaster
User Banned
Posted: 16th Sep 2009 20:20
Its good,excellent to kick some ass.

[href]http://sites.google.com/site/chargedstudios/home[href]
"Im British you muppet!"-Psycho
Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 16th Sep 2009 21:17
More good stuff. The only thing I question is holding the attacker's head in place. Surely you need to maximize how much his head moves to cause a KO? KO is caused by the brain impacting against the skull, which only occurs with sudden velocity change of the head. Best to get his head waggling about in a highly dramatic manner!

creator of zombies
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Feb 2006
Location: UK: West Wales
Posted: 16th Sep 2009 23:54
Quote: "KO is caused by the brain impacting against the skull,"

Incorrect, as the most effective way of causing a KO is sending shockwaves up the jaw bone to the back of the brain which paralyzes the heart and lungs, for just long enough to cause unconciousness. That is why we hold the attackers head to place to ensure It works first blow.

CoZ

-Demon Sun: Lead Developer-
Dead Man's Cradle: Lead Developer
lazerus
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Apr 2008
Location:
Posted: 17th Sep 2009 00:03
Thats why kneeing them in the jaw works so well.

"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes..."
http://lazerus-reborn.deviantart.com/
Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 17th Sep 2009 01:20
I'm not sure if I believe that. I believe twisting of the brain stem has something to do with it also. But the reason why boxers do a large amount of training on their neck muscles is to reduce movement of the head when they get hit, which reduces trauma to the brain. While I'm sure you know what you're talking about, so do I.

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Apr 2005
Location: The Fifth Plane of Oblivion
Posted: 17th Sep 2009 01:30 Edited at: 17th Sep 2009 01:33
Quote: "which reduces trauma to the brain."


Wouldn't rolling with the punch work best for reducing impact trauma?

Edit: did a little research:

Quote: "You should not roll with a punch if it is directed at your head, as this can lead to serious injury and head whipping. Instead, move your head toward the punch."


Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 17th Sep 2009 02:11
I'm keeping that as a quote, there maybe a situation where it'll come in handy, "now, when I attack, don't block, just move your head towards my fist, you'll sustain less damage."

I know there are people out there gullible enough.

AdrianoJones Wannabe
15
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Jul 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posted: 17th Sep 2009 02:24
This seems like an interesting thread.
-Adrian

I love Taylor Swift. She's awesome.
Hey guys! Help me! Join the creative design forums! http://creativedesign.candorweb.com/index.php
Sid Sinister
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jul 2005
Location:
Posted: 17th Sep 2009 06:29 Edited at: 17th Sep 2009 06:30
Quote: "What they dont teach you in the Martial arts"


Covered here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKmUsVeKp1o

Great info, thanks again.

That whole move your head towards the punch thing actually sounds legit. That's the whole reason why airbags work. Momentum = Speed of object x Mass of object (the air bag reduces the speed). Same thing with a punch I guess, but it's definitely not going to feel nice. It's weird to think about leaning into a punch because it's so against our reflexes.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
Current Project: http://strewnfield.wordpress.com/ (Last updated 06/11/09)
creator of zombies
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Feb 2006
Location: UK: West Wales
Posted: 17th Sep 2009 09:38 Edited at: 17th Sep 2009 09:39
Right, this moving your head towards the punch is the most rediculous theory I have heard. There is a reason that In the defence for a double handed push, we scoop the hands downwars to make sure the head continues to travel forward with the momentum of the push. Then If you strike the guy in the chin he will go down due to his own momentum traveling toward the punch, added together with the momentum from your own punch will cause devestating damage to the jaw, thus sending shockwaves up the jaw to the back of the brain causing unconciousness.
And it's the same for the posting (thats what you call holding the guy in place). You are not looking for a large swing on the punch, you just want the impact on the chin (or the button as boxers call it) that will send these shockwaves up the jaw. By holding the attacker in place, you will cause these shockwaves, and cause his head to snap back, possibly resulting in a neck fracture also. But mainly, this technique always results in a KO (It's used in Unarmed combatatives, and has work for me countless times)
The main difference between unarmed combat and MA, is that in Unarmed combat, you are always in close to your opponent, striking with your elbows, fists, and so on to the jaw, eyes or neck etc. It's fast, explosive, and very violent. Put simply, it's fighting/melee combat without weapons. This system has kept me alive in mnay situations, and made sure that the fight ends as quickly as possible due to the opponent is unable to continue, due to Pain or unconciousness etc.

Keep the comments coming!

CoZ

-Demon Sun: Lead Developer-
Dead Man's Cradle: Lead Developer
Sid Sinister
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jul 2005
Location:
Posted: 17th Sep 2009 09:54
Well! Since you put it like that, I guess it sounds like a bad idea after all

Quote: "It's fast, explosive, and very violent."


Reminds me of the Bourne movies. Or the result of too many burritos. Are fights scenes in the most movies still mostly impractical? Obviously it's choreographed, but is it choreographed right? I think a lot of people, kids especially, see that and want to get into Martial Arts because they want to rape face like Jason Bourne. Wrong way to come at it.

More on topic, you should create some youtube video's demonstrating some of this stuff.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
Current Project: http://strewnfield.wordpress.com/ (Last updated 06/11/09)
creator of zombies
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Feb 2006
Location: UK: West Wales
Posted: 17th Sep 2009 09:59
@Sid Sinister: What you see in the films is completely fake, and will not work in the street. The film fight scenes are all done with attackers who know wharts coming, and it doesnt take into accound the affect of adrenaline.

Quote: "you should create some youtube video's demonstrating some of this stuff."

I will when I get hold of a video camera

CoZ

-Demon Sun: Lead Developer-
Dead Man's Cradle: Lead Developer
Butter fingers
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2006
Location: Mecca
Posted: 17th Sep 2009 15:01
CoZ, it sounds like you're in Mortal Combat, not West Wales! I would have to question how you have ended up in so many street fights?!

I want robotic legs.
Sid Sinister
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jul 2005
Location:
Posted: 17th Sep 2009 18:11
He walks down alleys with $20 bills hanging from his back pocket of course!

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
Current Project: http://strewnfield.wordpress.com/ (Last updated 06/11/09)
Butter fingers
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2006
Location: Mecca
Posted: 17th Sep 2009 18:55
so do strippers when they finish work.

I want robotic legs.
creator of zombies
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Feb 2006
Location: UK: West Wales
Posted: 17th Sep 2009 19:49
@Butter fingers:
Quote: "I would have to question how you have ended up in so many street fights?!
"

Most area's in West wales have a terrible reputation for underage drinking (like the rest of the UK), but the various nightclubs and "Welsh only" pubs are the worst. Pretty much all of the confrontations have been down to the other party being intoxicated, or just plain ignorrent because I wasnt born in wales (even though I can speak fluent Welsh).

I would also like to mention that If any of you guys have a particular attack that scares you or something you personally want to go through and explain a defence for then feel free to ask. I would be glad to hear from you.

CoZ

-Demon Sun: Lead Developer-
Dead Man's Cradle: Lead Developer
Sid Sinister
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jul 2005
Location:
Posted: 17th Sep 2009 21:06
I have one for you to talk to me about, and it comes with a funny story.

It was my first week of freshman year of High School. My friends from middle school and I are sitting around a table just looking around and observing our surrounding. New school, new environment, we just want to know how things work here. Well, this wigger (a white... yeah... erm, gangster?) comes up to our table and says to my friends and I "You guys better stop checking out my girls." I replied, "What? Um, where not checking anyone out, we are new here and just looking around." He said a a few other things then sat down. He then sent his friend over to tell us again to stop doing it, to which we again replied we weren't.

Obviously they were looking for a fight. That's clear.

Well, the first guy that came over starts yelling at us from across the lunch room and throwing french fries (of which I ate some, annoyed at this point). I knew he was yelling at us, but he wasn't looking at us. So I yelled back to him, "If your going to yell at us, at least look at us."

WELL! It turns out, the guy had a lazy eye LOL (Didn't realize this...). So yeah... that pretty much sent him over the edge and he came over and I pretty much got rocked. He had the upper hand right away because I was so pinned into my surroundings. There were dozens of people around me and chairs everywhere and I was pinned to my seat. When he came over, he basically took my head and slammed it into the table and then pulled my hair back to do it again. He then took my head and threw me onto the ground, but my butt was still in the chair (So I'm practically upside down). More pain ensued.

My question to you: I don't sit in crowded lunch rooms anymore because I'm out of High School, but looking back, what could I have done with the surroundings I had? My friends were useless, just sitting there watching (I think they were more stunned than anything).

At any rate, it makes a hilarious story now. He got suspended, and then the next fight he was in he got kicked out of school.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
Current Project: http://strewnfield.wordpress.com/ (Last updated 06/11/09)
creator of zombies
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Feb 2006
Location: UK: West Wales
Posted: 17th Sep 2009 22:16 Edited at: 17th Sep 2009 22:20
@Sid Sinister: You where correct in attempting to diffuse the situation to start with, but as soon as you knew they where looking for a fight (which would basicly mean that one can't be avoided very easily), and the seccond guy started yelling, you should immidiately of got up out of your seat with a calm body language and attitude and stood up. This firstly, gets rid of any advantage the attacker had over you and puts you on level terms.
Depending on how close he is to you, you can do either of these techniques.
*Walk calmly over to him, and say "Sorry, how are your lot doing these days...", and make a writing gesture with either hand. While his figuring out what you just said, you can swing your elbow into his jaw two, or three times, followed by a elbow or an upwards 45 degree angled strike punch to the solar plexus. Alternately, thrust your right or left hand onto his chin, pushing it back whilst clawing his eyes. When he's tilted backwards, you can either deliever a groin slap with your spare hand, or punch the solar plexus. This guy by now will either be stooped over in pain, or would of fallen on the floor. If he's stooped over, drive you knee up into his chin or face [I cant mention the other strike that can be used here, on the forum course because it's lethal.]

By now, his friend will have got up to help, so if the first attacker can still support himself, use him as a shield for the other attacker, whilst using the same techniques described above. If there are any lunchtray's or forks available to hand, use the improvised weapons anyway you wish. Remember, it's you or him

However, If when you stand up from your seat, the first attacker stands up immidiately, and you believe the element of suprise wont work, ALWAYS take the attack to them, in the quickest, most brutaly effective way possible. When he walks (or runs) towards you, adopt the stance I mentioned (keeping open palms). As he comes closer, you can either throw something of your table to distract him, then attack. Or deliever a kick to the groin, and attack.
And now your spoilt for choice, because you can also wait till he gets slightly closer, and administer a finger stike to the eyes or elbows to the jaw or throat, while thrusting your hand into his face.
If you see a punch coming in, immidiately grab his arm as its pulled back, and palm strike the guy in the chin whilst keeping hold of his arm as a post.

Tips
* Take slow deep breaths. This will help your accuracy and your vision. Dont worry what your attackers think.

*Before a confrontation begins, you have to be prepared mentaly as well as physicsly. The attacker has to already be defeated in your mind. Thinking "Ah crap What do I do, Im gonna die!" means you have already lost, and will loose.

*Speed is more important than power. Hit with maximum force, but keep your muscles relaxed as you whip your arms out. This will ensure the move faster. Tense muscles move slower. An elbow strike will still cause alot of damage, even if the force is weakened.

*You have to forgot about maybe getting hit. Dont't go in there expecting to get hit and battered, but what Im saying is: Unarmed combat doesnt make you invincible. It's quite possible that a punch or two will get through and hit you, but think about it like this. What will look better: You who is still standing, but you have a slightly sore nose or shoulder etc. Or the guy who's laying on the floor unconcious with a possible neck fracture.

How's that Sid Sinister?

CoZ


-Demon Sun: Lead Developer-
Dead Man's Cradle: Lead Developer
BearCDP
15
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Sep 2009
Location: NYC
Posted: 18th Sep 2009 01:19 Edited at: 18th Sep 2009 01:21
I've been lurking for a couple days, and couldn't help but ask, what if a gun gets pulled out on you? I've never been in any fights myself, but I figure this is more likely than any other scenario to happen because

(a) I live in Manhattan, and on the rather rare chance that someone does get mugged, the mugger probably has a gun--real/fake loaded/unloaded, doesn't matter--and the muggee is probably a college student (like me) because they figure if we can afford to go to school in New York then there's a chance we're clueless and dumb enough to walk around with a ton of cash.

(b) I'm a big guy. So unless the mugger is big, I figure he'll tend take his chances with someone else if he's unarmed.

(c) When I'm not at school I'm in Arizona, where gun control doesn't exist </hyperbole>
Thraxas
Retired Moderator
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Feb 2006
Location: The Avenging Axe, Turai
Posted: 18th Sep 2009 01:58
If someone pulls a gun on you, you just give them what they're asking for. If they want your wallet, give them your wallet. If they want your watch, you give them your watch etc...

Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 18th Sep 2009 01:58 Edited at: 18th Sep 2009 02:00
Quote: "what if a gun gets pulled out on you?"


You wouldn't be able to tell from a movie, but if you're running away from someone FAST, it's incredibly difficult for him to shoot you as you move. Odds are he's not really going to shoot you unless you try to hurt him, so if you have a feeling that you are going to be hurt or tortured, your best bet may be just to run. Will he really shoot you in an open area?

EDIT:

But as Thraxas said, if he is right next to you and asking for your wallet, your best bet is probably to hand it over. If he's some distance from you and coming at you and he has a gun, it might not be a bad idea to run (if you're a good runner). At least that's what I would do!


Senior Web Developer - Nokia
BearCDP
15
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Sep 2009
Location: NYC
Posted: 18th Sep 2009 02:10
Quote: "But as Thraxas said, if he is right next to you and asking for your wallet, your best bet is probably to hand it over. If he's some distance from you and coming at you and he has a gun, it might not be a bad idea to run (if you're a good runner). At least that's what I would do!"


I figured as much. One more reason why I wear unassuming clothes and limit the amount of cash & cards I have with me.
Butter fingers
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2006
Location: Mecca
Posted: 18th Sep 2009 02:43
OK CoZ, I've heard that wales can be pretty rough. Here'sa good one for you.

as you may or may not have read, gangs in london have been quite prolific recently, generally the deal is, some poor shrimp gets beaten to death by about 7 guys, and then stabbed. You're alone at night and confronted by a gang of 7 guys. They could have a knife, you don't know. What do you do? Oh, and I don't know if you work out, but lets pretend for the sake of realism, you have the physicallity of the average programmer.

Oh, and you didn't really mention it above, but, don't go throwing your arms out when you punch... haymakers leave you open for too long. As you said you need speed and accuracy more than power, but also you want to keep your arms pretty close in..A hadouken doesn't go a miss if you've learned how to do them...

I want robotic legs.
creator of zombies
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Feb 2006
Location: UK: West Wales
Posted: 18th Sep 2009 09:59
Quote: "what if a gun gets pulled out on you?"

The are a few simple gun disarming techniques that I have used in practice, but because I have never used one of the techniques in a real confrontation, I'm not going to mention them, because I'm not sure if they work effectively. And I don't want to put anyones life on the line by teaching something that hasnt been tested to work.
The best advice I can give is hand over what he's asking for. A wallet, watch or car keys isn't worth loosing your life over.

@Butter fingers: Hmm, to be completely honest, there isn't much you can do. All the combat training and experience in the world would not get you out of that, due to the number of opponents. As my combatatives instructor used to say: "Never use force unless your sure you can win". The only technique I can offer in this situation is to run to a well lit area, making as much noise as possible to attract attention.
All combat systems, and unarmed combat etc will work effectively up to 2 - 3 opponents (This system does anyway).
The good news is the 99% of attacks or confrontations you will ever get into in a pub, club or on the street whilst walking home from work etc, will be from 1 attacker alone, sometimes 2.

More chapters coming this evening. I shall be covering "How to beat the adrenaline dump"

CoZ

-Demon Sun: Lead Developer-
Dead Man's Cradle: Lead Developer
Toasty Fresh
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jun 2007
Location: In my office, making poly-eating models.
Posted: 18th Sep 2009 10:34
Quote: "A wallet, watch or car keys isn't worth loosing your life over."


Damn straight. I'd give anything to keep living. Seriously.
Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 18th Sep 2009 15:43
To be honest, I dont think giving someone advice to attack first in a crowded lunch room is a good idea. Even if it's a justified preemptive attack, you're going to get expelled. This isn't the movies!

Drew Cameron
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Jan 2004
Location: Scotland
Posted: 18th Sep 2009 17:43 Edited at: 18th Sep 2009 17:44
Quote: "This isn't the movies!"


Exactly.

I understand self defense etc, but I quite honestly think, in a way, teaching a lot of people these self defense moves in questionable. I can see plenty of skinny little kids suddenly thinking they are untouchable because they "know how to defend themselves" and getting absolutely decked when they try and do some fancy counter move or fight back instead of just handing over a watch or whatever.

On the other hand, it makes people feel more safe and sometimes you may need to use these moves.

I guess the coin flips both ways. All I'm saying is most people should just run away or comply lest they be decimated. I think the principle of your teachings should always clearly be either run or do as they wish before using anything above.

Ron Erickson
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Dec 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Posted: 18th Sep 2009 19:01
Quote: "To be honest, I dont think giving someone advice to attack first in a crowded lunch room is a good idea. Even if it's a justified preemptive attack, you're going to get expelled. This isn't the movies!"


I agree completely.
A fight should always be avoided if possible. The best thing to do in the "lunch room" situation is to get yourself into a position where you are not trapped. Move over by a teacher. Something. If the person comes after you, then defend yourself if you have to.

The same thing is true for the "getting attacked by a gang of 7". The first thing that you should do is avoid putting yourself in the situation in the first place. Should you really be out on the streets ALONE at night? If you have no choice and do find a gang of people coming upon you, then you should do all you can to buy time. Try to keep from letting yourself be cornered. Try to keep yourself from being sorrounded. Awareness to your sorroundings can help you avoid the fight in the first place. Always look for an "exit strategy" if you are in a place that you should not be. This should be done before the danger arrives.

Fighting moves/techniques are nice to know, but generally it all goes out the window once you are in a "real" fight. The fastest, strongest person usually "wins" anyway. Just because you know how to fight doesn't mean the other person doesn't know too. The most effective things to learn are usually ground grappling techniques. Most fights usually end up on the ground and if you have some idea of what you are doing, you can usually keep yourself (and your opponent) from getting too hurt before help arrives and things get broke up.

By far the MOST effective fighting technique is to find ways to avoid the fight. If you can pull off that "move" you will NEVER lose and NEVER get hurt.

Ron


a.k.a WOLF!
creator of zombies
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Feb 2006
Location: UK: West Wales
Posted: 18th Sep 2009 19:21 Edited at: 18th Sep 2009 19:25
Quote: "I dont think giving someone advice to attack first in a crowded lunch room is a good idea. "

Then you will be on the back foot, and have your backside handed to you If you don't. If you allow your opponent to strike first, you will immidiately be at a disadvantage once hit. Get in there first once he invades your personal space, and is of a threatening nature. (But always try to avoid a fight if possible!
The problem with teaching this system, or any other unarmed combatatives to people such as yourselfs, is that you think, and fight with morals. Most of the advice above I have heard over the years come from people who have never or properly experienced a proper street fight, whilst you adrenaline is pumping and your heart is racing. You have never had someone threaten to stick a half broken bottle in your face, or had to fight someone twice your size and strength. I have had to deal with all of the above.
I don't teach 'flashy' moves or counters, I'm just teaching what has worked for me 100% of the time during my encounters. Of course, I'm not suggesting you walk into a pub, and lamp the first guy who spills your drink. What I'm saying is if you ever find yourself in a situation where your life is on the line, or someone attempts to attack you, then use the above.
And incase your wondering, I have a flawless record with the law, and have never been cautioned, or been in trouble for using any of the techniques mentioned above when I needed to.
However, If you want to learn thousands of complex, flashy martial arts moves that look good, but will get you killed, or seriously injured on the street....go ahead.

I teach what works,not what Iv'e heard.

CoZ

(And incase your wondering)
-Sources-
*9 years in Martial arts training (Including Muai thai, Brazilian Ju-jitsu,Wadu Ruy karate, Judo and aikido)
*1st Dan black belt (Wadu Ruy Karate)
*Unarmed combatatives training.

-Demon Sun: Lead Developer-
Dead Man's Cradle: Lead Developer
Sid Sinister
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jul 2005
Location:
Posted: 18th Sep 2009 23:04
Thanks for the tips.

Yeah, avoiding the fight is definitely the path I take first. I don't like fights and I go out of my way to avoid them.

I don't know how it is in your public school system, but even if you defend yourself (which constitutes even raising your arms in defense), you get suspended. I think that rule is absolutely retarded, and even dangerous. Luckily, when I was in High School, my Dad told me to ignore it and he wouldn't get mad if I was suspended defending myself, as long as I didn't start it.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
Current Project: http://strewnfield.wordpress.com/ (Last updated 06/11/09)
Toasty Fresh
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jun 2007
Location: In my office, making poly-eating models.
Posted: 19th Sep 2009 01:26
Quote: "but even if you defend yourself (which constitutes even raising your arms in defense), you get suspended."


Stuff that. Which is better? A week off of school (albeit a rather boring one) or massive internal bleeding?
jasonhtml
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2004
Location: OC, California, USA
Posted: 19th Sep 2009 02:09
Quote: "but even if you defend yourself (which constitutes even raising your arms in defense), you get suspended. I think that rule is absolutely retarded, and even dangerous. Luckily, when I was in High School, my Dad told me to ignore it and he wouldn't get mad if I was suspended defending myself, as long as I didn't start it."


i agree this is a stupid rule in school. however, many people can get out of this situation by PROVING they didn't start it (ex: security recordings, eye-witnesses, ect.). even though the written rule is that everyone involved in a fight gets punished, proving you didn't start it often gets you out of trouble. however, if you did manage to injure your attacker significantly, then it may be harder to get out of trouble. the best way to get out is to go straight to the prinicipal, and if required, up the food chain even more.

also, i too have a hypothetical situation:

lets say you are alone and get jumped by 3 people. due to them surprising you, they get the first hit. now you are hurt/stumbling and they are ALL in your personal space. how would you get out of this situation? running is impossible since they are practically right on top of you, and keeping all 3 of them from holding you down sounds like quite a challenge...

what would be the best way to get out of this situation? also assume that you aren't in amazing physical condition, just average.

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Apr 2005
Location: The Fifth Plane of Oblivion
Posted: 19th Sep 2009 02:13
Quote: "what would be the best way to get out of this situation?"


An AK-47.

puppyofkosh
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Jan 2007
Location:
Posted: 19th Sep 2009 05:27
Quote: "An AK-47."

Or a well targeted air strike.
Thraxas
Retired Moderator
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Feb 2006
Location: The Avenging Axe, Turai
Posted: 19th Sep 2009 05:34
Quote: "Then you will be on the back foot, and have your backside handed to you If you don't. If you allow your opponent to strike first, you will immidiately be at a disadvantage once hit."


Quote: "And incase your wondering, I have a flawless record with the law, and have never been cautioned, or been in trouble for using any of the techniques mentioned above when I needed to."


If you strike first then you cannot claim you did it in self defense. The police are very clear on that. One of my best friends was threatened by 3 people. HE hit one first, then got beaten to a pulp by the 3 guys, the police arrived arrested them all. They all got off because he hit one of them first. His action escalated the situation from non-violent to violent. I don't think 'teaching' anyone to hit first is a good idea.

If I was you and lived in what seems to be such a dangerous area I would move

Kravenwolf
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Apr 2009
Location: Silent Hill
Posted: 19th Sep 2009 07:32
Quote: ""I dont think giving someone advice to attack first in a crowded lunch room is a good idea. ""


Quote: "Then you will be on the back foot, and have your backside handed to you If you don't. "


I completely disagree. Encouraging someone to always take the first strike and thereby START a fight in the first place rather than do everything they can to avoid a confrontation does not make for a lesson in self-defense; and in the laws eyes, it makes you look like the attacker.


Quote: "I was pinned to my seat. When he came over, he basically took my head and slammed it into the table and then pulled my hair back to do it again. "


Quote: "*Walk calmly over to him, and say "Sorry, how are your lot doing these days...", and make a writing gesture with either hand. While his figuring out what you just said, you can swing your elbow into his jaw two, or three times, followed by a elbow or an upwards 45 degree angled strike punch to the solar plexus. "


Though I don't at all disapprove with the martial arts techniques you're trying to share with everyone here, encouraging all of the kids on these forums to walk up to a school bully and punch him in the face as brutally as they can isn't a good influence to be setting. And in this case, telling one kid to walk up to a group or two or three others and attack one of them doesn't usually turn out too well after the first strike, when everyone else at the table retaliates.


COZ, I mean no disrespect to you at all, and I'm not trying to undermine your fighting logic, but there is a major difference between standing up to a high school bully in a classroom, and this:

Quote: "lets say you are alone and get jumped by 3 people."


...when your life is really in danger. In this case, you have no choice but to fight, and the best thing to do would in fact be to initiate lethal strikes, eye gouges, even a kick to the groin; anything you can do to get away. You don't need to incapacitate the entire group to make an opening for a getaway. Live today—fight tomorrow.

Anyway, as I said, I'm not at all questioning you martial arts skills, but having a background myself, I just felt the need to stop in and say to anyone here that’s unclear there is a time and a place to use these techniques; and school isn't one of them.


Kravenwolf

creator of zombies
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Feb 2006
Location: UK: West Wales
Posted: 19th Sep 2009 11:39 Edited at: 19th Sep 2009 11:42
Quote: "what would be the best way to get out of this situation? "

To not let it get that far in the first place. You should be switched on at all times, in order to stay out of that enviroment.

Quote: "the best thing to do would in fact be to initiate lethal strikes, eye gouges, even a kick to the groin;"

exactly, but According to Keith C, I'm not allowed to post such material as that here. If I had my way, I'd just teach techniques that would damage the attacker so badly he cant continue because he's either Incapitated, unconcious or dead, for use ONLY when your life is on the line. Unarmed combatatives isn't meant to be pretty, or have morals. It's used in the military and special forces because it's Fast, Effective and Violent.

Quote: "I'm not at all questioning you martial arts skills"

This is in no way martial arts. Traditional MA will get you seriously hurt on the street.

Quote: "and in the laws eyes, it makes you look like the attacker. "

It's not attacking first, it's a pre-empetive strike. Some one walking up to you and grabbing or pushing you without your 'consent' so to speak is reason enough to get in first. I am in no way telling people to just wipe the floor with some innocent guy who happens to look at you funny. You should always do anything to get out of a fight. You should attempt to diffuse the situation, but IF there is no other alternative, then go in 100%.
Remember: Go in 100%, or go out 100%.

I hope that's made matters clear. Obviously you wouldnt use all of this stuff in school, but during my time in secondary school, I have used many of these techniques in unavoidable confrontations (along with some more brutal ones), and have never got suspended, punished or arrested. And the "self defence" rule was the same in my school.

I love by the motto: "It's better to be judged by twelve, than to be carried by six"

CoZ

-Demon Sun: Lead Developer-
Dead Man's Cradle: Lead Developer
djmaster
User Banned
Posted: 19th Sep 2009 12:28
I say,always carry a bat or lead pipe with you,a nice smack in the head works usually

[href]http://sites.google.com/site/chargedstudios/home[href]
"Im British you muppet!"-Psycho

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2025-06-03 03:04:19
Your offset time is: 2025-06-03 03:04:19