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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Greed or Laziness

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Armageddon Games
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 10:36
Hi all i bet you all know what the topic here is about (figureatively speaking)

as you all know there are three kinds of people here in this community at TGC

The Contributers
The Giver's -- Free Stuff

then the takers-- greedy little parasites that take take take and never congratulate the maker.

I felt the need to post this topic because i want to see if anyone agrees with me

why should we -- we as in contributing people without cost for product keep giving away free stuff when nobody takes the time to leave feedback at all

i had posted a few free songs that i had spent hours working on to give away for free- (no longer available here)

after about an hour or so i saw the views go up and the comments stay the same -- 4 of my own

when i came back after eating dinner i saw that the viewcount had risen to 519--

still no comments

meaning probably 300+ of that 516 downloaded

and i bet everyone who readds this can understand how i felt

angry -- taken advantage of (kindness) and discouraged to release any more free stuff-- this is the third time this had happened to me

and again i am posting this not as a complaint-- but to see if anyone has any views on this or to share their experience on similar events.

thanks

Uncle Sam
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 10:39
Meh, in the end it pretty much doesn't matter, because stealers rarely ever finish a project....come to think of it, no one does.

Armageddon Games
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 10:46
understandable but i have a project here that has been in development for a few months now that i am just now getting around to posting on the forum
it was going to be a secret but hey no fame no game

but the fact of stealers-- the selfishness and greed angers me-- i hate people who take without consideration of response to the party responsible of creating the item or "thing"


thanks for you feedback Uncle Sam

Uncle Sam
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 10:48
Hehe, no problem, although it was more sarcasm. But on a more serious note, I think you're right. It bugs me too.

Armageddon Games
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 10:55
yeah but like you said theres not much anyone can do about it-- but this-- an idea for the forum

only for uploads-- as a mandatory thing --you cant download the file without leaving a comment-- like it wont let you-- as a little bit of a forum manner teaching tool-- you know?

but thatll be the day right?

ionstream
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 12:01
I can't honestly say I agree with you, you did make it for free and unless you made it clear that you want recognition, nobody really did anything wrong. I made a free plugin for Milkshape once, not a whole lot of people downloaded it and nobody said anything, but it was cool knowing that I helped in some small way. Too bad it kinda sucked and didn't work on Vista for some reason, something about Python libraries.

And are you entirely sure that people actually downloaded it, or are you just guessing from the views?

Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 12:05
I see it from the programming side helping people with code. Yeah, there are people out there that just take code and never show their appreciation but the people that do give thanks for getting help outnumber those that don't.

One of the things you have to learn is never let anybody make you jaded. You did have fun making the music regardless if you hear anybodies opinion of the music or not. Yes, it would be nice to hear other peoples opinion... but the only opinion that really matters is your own. And I'm sure you like the music you created.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 14:47 Edited at: 16th Sep 2009 15:16
Quote: "why should we -- we as in contributing people without cost for product keep giving away free stuff when nobody takes the time to leave feedback at all

i had posted a few free songs that i had spent hours working on to give away for free-"


It's been rare for me to offer freebies, but I have free tutorials dotted around and blog articles. But I didn't put them up there to reassure my own greahtness, but to be helpful, to put them there to be used. I know people have used them and I've had some comments on some of my stuff. Though I've never had a comment on a blog article, just people reading them. As long as people read them, I'm don't feel as though I'm wasting time.

But surely if somebody is using your content, that's compliment enough, I mean people like your work so much that they want to use it in their own projects. I know people have viewed my tutorials and read my blog articles, so I know they're being used and am happy that they may have helped somebody.

And yes, I do use free stuff...after all, there's some good free stuff, and well there's no point trying to be a Jack of All trades, I'm terrible at making textures, but I don't have the time to learn that on top of all of the stuff I've learned/been learning. Hence the phrase: "track of all trades, master of none", it's better to master something than to learn all of the skills you need to make a game (so team up, buy or borrow content). Hence my skills lie in 3D modelling, writing, game design and basic game making. Music, textures, 2D art, shader programing, certain types of programming etc. are areas I'll settle for borrowing materials or settling for the terrible job I do. And I can't always leave a comment and I'll keep names so I can give credit and I make sure I know what grounds people are giving content away free on. (For example, my texture libraries are labelled by creator, but most of them come from 3D magazines)

So it's neither laziness nor greed.

At least that's my take on it.

Van B
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 15:10
I find that often it's best to upload something then forget about it until someone who can make good use of it comes along.

I mean I was pretty surprised a week or so ago, when I noticed someone using an old GTA, DBClassic snippet of mine from about 7 years ago. It's cool that something I threw together can help people get started even after all this time. So although you might not have a decent reply in the same day, you just don't know who will find your music and put it to use.

Thing is though, people don't want to use all the same music which I think can put people off the idea of even downloading free songs. I think that musicians here are a vital resource but uploading free songs is not what people find useful - joining an almost complete game project to add the music however would be a great way to get your music out there. Developers aren't ideal when it comes to this stuff - there are people who can do a lot of aspects of development, code, graphics etc etc, but music creation seems to be a totally seperate skill that tends not to mix too often. Some developers are somewhat arrogant and might assume that they can do a good job, but really it would be better for a muso to take over.

This is how I found someone to make the music for my game Bruce. I mentioned in my tutorial series that I was looking for some oriental music, not the sort of thing that should be so difficult to find. Then waited, and nobody responded. So I was looking at some old YouTube videos of the original game, and someone had added a remake of the games theme, perfect. So I found the tune and contacted the author, who is now doing all the musics and working on some atmospheric effects for it. Turns out he made the song for a game that never got completed, and is happy to help out a game that is sure to be released.

So I suggest that people use the music and sound forum to show their work and get feedback, but if you want to provide music for a game, then there are lots of people who need music for their game. Searching through downloads on the off chance that the music will suit the game, be good enough, will loop if it needs to, will not wash out the sound effects... all that stuff factors in to reasons not to even download a tune. Perhaps musicians should make youtube videos of their tracks, like a medlay sort of thing so people can hear what your doing right away, without downloading anything.


Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
IanM
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 16:14
Quote: "I felt the need to post this topic because i want to see if anyone agrees with me

why should we -- we as in contributing people without cost for product keep giving away free stuff when nobody takes the time to leave feedback at all"

I don't agree. I give because I can and I want to.

If people want to thank me, that's fine, but I don't require it - enough people DO contribute to let me know my efforts are welcome, and that's good enough for me.

Jeku
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 18:02
But it looks like you just waited a few hours? Wait a few days instead and see what happens.

Also, I'm one of those guys who reads a block of threads, sometimes without downloading the things that are being offered, but it still counts as a "view". I might be in the minority but maybe there are others like me?


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Tom J
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 18:31
Quote: "I might be in the minority but maybe there are others like me?"


I tend to check out WIPs (I never visit the music section) but not download because I speed through everything, only the things which interest/impress me get further attention typically.

For music though, a link to youtube takes less time than a download, so I may click on it then, and comment.

Quote: "the takers-- greedy little parasites that take take take and never congratulate the maker."


There's a dozen reasons why people may not comment on your thing. Try not to generalise people into 3 categories
Sid Sinister
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 18:33
Quote: "Meh, in the end it pretty much doesn't matter, because stealers rarely ever finish a project....come to think of it, no one does. "


And then there's Bill Gates...

If I was to offer something for free, sure, it would be nice to get a thank you, but I don't expect it. It's like, what are you in it for? The praise or the betterment (wow, can't believe that's a word) of the community? For me, just making something of use to someone is enough praise for me. The same goes for advice on these forums. Do you know how much a programmer costs? Yet we see dozens of people give advice on a consistent basis here. That takes time, talent and treasure. But they wouldn't be here if it they we in it for the praise or money.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 19:54
I'm a leech.
If it's free, I will take it. I mean, if I wasn't supposed to it wouldn't be free.

IanM
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 20:27
Quote: "but maybe there are others like me?"

Me too.

In fact, I tend to lurk quite a bit. Unlike some of the more prolific posters here, I only post when I have something to say

Armageddon Games
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 22:36
yeah but take a minute to fully understand my point

lets say you spend about 4 hours on a project much like my own-- 4-5 hoursd is about how long it takes me to fully complete and perfect a track professionally

and then i upload it thinking hey maybe people will like this

and some time goes by and i see the views go up but no comments-- it kind of discourages me and angers me quite a abit

the point being -- hard work and good work deserves a little bit of respect or feedback in some manner

Plystire
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 23:12
Well, the urge for the people of this forum seems to be more inclined towards "Oh, a download! *click*" as opposed to "Oh, they put up a download, I wonder what it's about. *read* ... *click*"

There have been a number of occassions where I release a demo with an explanation, and a request for C&C or just general feedback. I've had people come back and say "Sorry, I didn't take a screenshot, I just saw DEMO and started downloading." It's almost like a slap in the face to grab the download without even reading the post it came on.

Comparatively, the amount of people who leave you comments and constructive crits is marginally low, especially for me. The amount of people who actually post something about the project are in the low percentage of the amount of people who downloaded it. I know where you're coming from.


If only more people understood the value of comments and constructive crits.


The one and only,


Kevin Picone
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 23:13
I think we can all understand your frustration, but I'd question the logic in using the views counter as some indication of popularity. Since the thread views are not unique here, so the same users might well be inflating the views count of any post.

Personally, what I find is that the ratio of the Downloads to views is probably more like %5->%10 of the unique visitors. From that pool less than %5 respond.

zeroSlave
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 23:19
Quote: "lets say you spend about 4 hours on a project much like my own-- 4-5 hoursd is about how long it takes me to fully complete and perfect a track professionally

and then i upload it thinking hey maybe people will like this"


Give someone a game that you think they will like for christmas, and they might say thank you. Give them the game that was on their wish list, and they'll be more likely to jump up and down and scream that they love you.

If you are looking for recognition of success, try to accommodate other's desires. However, if you want to make something that you like, you shouldn't expect another person's approval.

Quote: "and some time goes by and i see the views go up but no comments-- it kind of discourages me and angers me quite a abit"


If you like it, that should be enough to encourage you to continue. Don't rely on others for motivation, and you shouldn't get angry because no one seems too concerned to leave a message. My two cents.

There's something in this room that makes you can't speak well.
Kravenwolf
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Posted: 16th Sep 2009 23:33
Quote: "but I'd question the logic in using the views counter as some indication of popularity."


Agreed. Just because people view your post doesn't mean they download what's there. I myself, look at almost every free media thread that pops up in the media board, but I rarely ever download what's there, only because I feel more preferenced to create my own media for my games. But I still like seeing what other people come up with. I even check back in that thread a few times a week to see if anything else has been added.

However, if you really want to see how many downloads your music receives versus the number of views your post gets, you can always upload your files to filefront, or any other hosting website that keeps track of the number of downloads, and post the link in your thread. You'll see the 10% margin of downloads to views that Kevin mentioned isn't really that far off.

Another thing to consider is your product. It would seem that music in general isn't as popular as models on the FPSC boards. I've seen several 'Free Music' posts that only receive 3 or 4 comments, whereas media topics (weather free or not) seem to become a hot topic in three days.

In the very least, if you wanted to require everyone that downloads your file to leave you a comment, the only thing you could really do for that is state in your thread the music file is free, but you require an email request for you to send them the file.


Kravenwolf

Dreamsenshi
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Posted: 17th Sep 2009 00:30 Edited at: 17th Sep 2009 02:49
In the same line of thought as Tom J, Ian M, Kravenwolf, and a few others who have already posted, it does seem like there are definitely different ways to perceive this situation.

For example, I use RSS feeds to check on what's going on in the forum. If I didn't, I wouldn't be able to keep up. If I see something of interest, I make a note to myself to look at it in more detail later. So, even after viewing your post, I didn't download the song yet and therefore had no comment to make. I want to give something the time it deserves before analyzing it or saying something carelessly, especially since I compose music myself! I bet tons of people on here use RSS feeds; one of the greatest things since the start of the internet. Many of them probably look in at everything but don't necessarily get involved because it may not be of interest to them after a quick look.

I am sure there are also people who lack social skill, some of which are probably people who don't even weigh the pros and cons of commenting on someone's free items because it simply doesn't occur to them; I've been a dumb person in the past who has done something completely and socially unacceptable but didn't know it until I got verbally ganked afterward. But, there are also people who would have taken the time to comment, thank, and so forth if they had the time to. I mean, I haven't been here that long, but I can already tell that the regulars here seem to be nice enough, even when somewhat unfiltered with their frustrations.

The point is that there's going to be some of all kinds of people and it's impossible to stop people being how they are. Having been in similar shoes to yours at a point many years before, Armaggedon, I think the question isn't necessarily how to fix the problem with other people but to ask yourself if it's worth the stress of giving away items for free. If it makes you feel used, maybe you should charge for it, even if it's a very small amount. I mean, even if you force people to comment, the comments may not live up to your expectations or hopes either and you could walk away still feeling used. I can already see in my mind's eye people making a short a comment as possible just to download faster. :}

Edit: An additional thought... If it's music, what would people have to say about the song other than thanks before downloading it? :}

Your error is my treasure. =^--^=
That C++ Nerd
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Posted: 17th Sep 2009 02:45 Edited at: 17th Sep 2009 02:45
Giving and taking is all a part of a community system. Where would anyone be if people stopped giving? To me, it seems like good nature is a domino effect. If you give to hundreds of people, there has to be at least one person who is affected, and thus gives themselves.

Perfect example: the torrent system. There will always be leeches, but someone has to step up to the plate and commit a good deed (the seeders). If all of the givers stop giving, the masses feel the repercussions, and no one receives~~~ Bad Energy

Your signature has been erased by a mod because it's too big--- 300k!?
Lucifer
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Posted: 17th Sep 2009 21:10 Edited at: 17th Sep 2009 21:18
I completely disagree with you, Armageddon Games. I completely Agree with Seppuku Arts.

Just knowing someone downloaded my song, or even just listened to it all the way through is good enough for me, knowing that it's out there and it might help someone or inspire someone is always good enough for me. And you'll usually get some feedback, two or three comments is the usual for me i think, and i'm very happy with that, of course i was also very happy when i recieved a very generous donation from some very nice people i like very much!

I'd say your attitude is very immature and childish.

lazerus
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Posted: 17th Sep 2009 21:25
I cannot see the morale difference between them. Each results in the same outcome. Whether the person simply did not care or the person is self encolsed in thier own world. Ethier way the uploader wanted recognition of thier media and unsurprisingly it turned out that the prose of complete strangers scattered around the world had neither the time or effort to voice. Such is the way of open sharing gratification. No matter the arugement they cannot win against a shadow. Scream at it untill your voice fails but it will not move.

It seems that i came out harsh, but you cant really look at it differently. Even a thriving community like ours has its fair due of shadows. This in light, I do try my best at commenting on as many of these threads with words encouragement, or suggestions to better it. But you can't rely on a person with no emotional ties to come parading in with words of wisdom.
Life is far from that, too far for my comfort.

Epiphanies strike us at the strangest of times, i like this side of me.

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BearCDP
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Posted: 17th Sep 2009 21:36
^What everyone else said

Also, some people are just curious about what other people have produced, and have no interest in actually using your media. Then there are other content creators who are lurking your threads because they like scoping out competition.
Armageddon Games
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Posted: 18th Sep 2009 04:18
Quote: "I'd say your attitude is very immature and childish."


well you know what --- you try making a few tracks and spending more than 3 hours perfecting it and then everyone freeloads without c&c

lets see how you feel since you think your all high and mighty.

Lucifer
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Posted: 18th Sep 2009 05:42 Edited at: 18th Sep 2009 05:43
Quote: "well you know what --- you try making a few tracks and spending more than 3 hours perfecting it and then everyone freeloads without c&c

lets see how you feel since you think your all high and mighty."


Haha, oooo 3 hours, that sounds like forever doesn't it? -

I've worked on songs that took 2 weeks to a month to finish, and some of them i just uploaded straight to my soundclick page for everyone to use for free without making a post about it demanding attention and praise like you seemed to do in yours. So yeah.. that kind of defeats your whole point about how i would feel.

And yes, your attitude is very immature and childish, you're begging for attention, and if you don't receive any sooner rather than later you'll get upset, like in the post you made in the fpsc media forum witch was probably the root of this thread .

flashing snall
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Posted: 18th Sep 2009 05:51
Im a leech, but Id like to think I give feedback. One time I even made an account on newgrounds/audio just to praise this one guy who made an awesome track.

ionstream
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Posted: 18th Sep 2009 06:11 Edited at: 18th Sep 2009 11:07
Quote: "you try making a few tracks and spending more than 3 hours perfecting it and then everyone freeloads without c&c"


Dude first of all, 3 hours is nothing. Most music creators will spend at the very least a few days to create the song, but many will spend months perfecting it. Second of all, you don't even know that anyone has "freeloaded" off of you, its entirely guesswork on your part.

Edit. Bit harsh.

Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 18th Sep 2009 13:34
Quote: "why should we -- we as in contributing people without cost for product keep giving away free stuff when nobody takes the time to leave feedback at all"


Don't?

I'm with IanM; I give because I want to. If I want criticism then I'll post it as a WIP.
Insert Name Here
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Posted: 18th Sep 2009 19:16
Amendment to my previous post:

If it's really good I'll probably say, or if it's only slightly bad and I think I can help. Any other time I'll ignore it - there's a whole lot of rubbish out there.

Mahoney
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Posted: 18th Sep 2009 19:39
Quote: "I'd say your attitude is very immature and childish."


Yo, Lucifer, I hear ya, and I'mma let you finish, but Armageddon Games has one of the best attitudes of all time.

/obnoxious behavior

I have little to give to this thread in the way of debate and opinion, so I thought I could at least lighten the mood.

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dark coder
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Posted: 19th Sep 2009 04:08
I agree with the above posts, also I'm not sure how you get a figure of 300+ downloads from 516 views unless you tracked the downloads yourself. Expecting people to congratulate you is probably worse than having someone blindly take all media they can as it shows you're doing this for the wrong reasons. It almost makes it sound like you only post the media for free to get an ego stroking and that that's the only reason why anyone would release things for free. You shouldn't expect people to congratulate you simply because of your intentions, for all I know I may think your work sucks and that refraining from posting helps you save face.

TheComet
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Posted: 19th Sep 2009 09:55
Dark Coder makes a good point. I usually only give feedback in threads that show impressive work. I'm not saying your songs suck, I haven't heard them, just that this could be one reason for the lack of posts.

But that is not the only factor, it could be everyone is very busy and downloaded it to listen to later, and forgot to give feedback. Maybe your song was so amazing that everyone was just carried away with listening to it...

TheComet


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Armageddon Games
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Posted: 21st Sep 2009 18:42
well im not too worried about it to be honest-- i was just posting this not to start anything but to see other's views and opinions-- and it worked-- i thank you all for your time to reply here-- and just so everyone knows i have posted my full album for free in the models and media board for anyone wanting to check it out
12 songs and 1 bonus track for horror games

this is about a years work that i am proud of-- and i dont need an ego boost-- lol i honestly think everone's ego needs a deflation hereand there right?

but alltogether-- this was meant to be a peaceful share opinions and views post i didnt mean for it to turn in to a flame war -- but i am glad it was controlled and ended quickly-- i love the community here and i love giving free stuff away-- but its always good to hear about it to know whether or not people like or dislike it -- just so you know where to improve if needed

but again thanks for all the feedback it helps otheers including me understand the way some of the community here thinks and responds to certain obstacles and events

DJ Almix
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Posted: 21st Sep 2009 20:41
Quote: "but alltogether-- this was meant to be a peaceful share opinions and views post i didnt mean for it to turn in to a flame war -- but i am glad it was controlled and ended quickly-- i love the community here and i love giving free stuff away-- but its always good to hear about it to know whether or not people like or dislike it -- just so you know where to improve if needed "


True, but some people just like to disregard a free and very well done thing that is given. It's like on YouTube.com where the views never match up with the comments. I have a video with 150,000 views, but only about 85 comments (most of them I have to remove because there rude). I like it when people give appreation and creatice it in a mature way, but there could be other reasons then just I want to take this and not even talk to the author.

Drew Cameron
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2009 04:22
Expect a certain conversion rate in views>comments. I usually expect 1,000 views to one incidence of feedback.

Fallout
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2009 17:19
You'll never get thanks for music unless the project is finished. Music is a finishing touch. If people download it, they're probably just checking it out to see if it's any good. Then, unless it's awesome, you won't get any feedback. I've been releasing music onto the internet for 10 years, and it's always been a fraction (1 in 100 at the most) that give feedback - only the people that really love the music. Normally it's along the lines of "I love your tunes", meaning their feedback is as a result of listening to maybe 10 songs, and they've built up the interest and desire to chat to me.

So basically, you have unreasonable expectations. If you thanked people for everything you downloaded or checked out, you'd be sending 100 emails everytime you logged onto YouTube.

Armageddon Games
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Posted: 25th Sep 2009 17:32 Edited at: 25th Sep 2009 17:33
Quote: " I've been releasing music onto the internet for 10 years"


well bully for you--

I have been producing music for over 15 years-- i am 22 next month

and you know -- i think your statements are invalid along with your horrible opinion, so if you could kindly bug someone else for a bit -- I would appreciate it.

I am a grown man, Respect it or leave it.

and dont even try to bring "he just wants attention" into this

because believe me ...

I get more attention here in my hometown of 13,000 people + and on the internet than i know what to do with

so im not too worried about a few kids here and there saying hey this is nice or hey where can i download

i guess i was attemtping to try and bring back forum respect and manners. that apparently nobody has here.

but say what you want-- do what you want--

it wont matter to me-- i know my experience and my talent

how about you?

i kind of doubt you do- since a so called "Fellow" musician with a whole of "10" years "OOOHHH" is trying to order me around like a new guy in a jail cell.

hold your tongue and think of what your saying before you make yourself look like a total idiot next time because thats all your doing.

Armageddon Games
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Location: Im In my Little bubble, Find your own...
Posted: 25th Sep 2009 17:35
And as for finishing touch-- There really isnt one in music-- since you can always alter and re arrange your sound

nice try though with the "sounding smart" idea

Jeku
Moderator
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Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 25th Sep 2009 18:05
@Armageddon Games -

Quote: "hold your tongue and think of what your saying before you make yourself look like a total idiot next time because thats all your doing."


The only one who looks that way is you from what I can tell of your attitude. You're just asking for flame bait.


Senior Web Developer - Nokia
Jeku
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Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 25th Sep 2009 18:06
Flame

This thread has been locked due to the unmanageable number of flame responses. Please refer to section 3.11 - 3.12 of the Acceptable Usage Policy for full details:

http://www.thegamecreators.com/?gf=aup#forum

AUP Section 3.17 ...Moderators shall, at their discretion, determine what constitutes a violation of theses terms, along with generally accepted nettiqute standards, and can take action against those who violate these rules.

If you contributed to the reason for locking, you may now find yourself on moderation, or in extreme cases a ban.


Senior Web Developer - Nokia

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