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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Does DBPro have a future ?

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Pete
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 16:36
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It's almost one year since DBPro was released, and it's not yet a fully functional programming language. For every patch that is released they fix 50 bugs and create 100 bugs, and if you do the math on that equation you will get to the conclusion that it's never going to get any better than it is right now. So my question to all of the community is.....Does DBPro have a future ?
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Dave J
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 16:37
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And if you do the Math and learn to count then you'll get the real figures and not some made off the top of your head. They fix a lot more bugs then they create, a LOT more.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Chenak
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 16:40
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I think it does, once all the bugs have been fixed anyway, now u5 is out alot of of the bugs have been fixed though there are still a few major ones which should be fixed by u6 (hopefully).

Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny...
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Darkflame
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 16:41
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indeed, Patch5 seems to fix all the major ones.

Theres stil plenty to fix, but the vaste majoirty have gone now.

As for the future, they should do a few more major patchs over the next year, then perhapes release a new version with more features.
(obviously, there should be an "upgrade" version for those that already have DBp)

"The man who says it cannot be done is generally interrupted by someone doing it." ~ Elbert Hubbard
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APEXnow
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 16:50
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I think that it needs to be clarified that a majority of the reported bugs are infact issues related to either misunderstood program code due to lack of experience in the language, or issues related to either Service packs, OS problems or incorrect video driver version installations. I've been using DBPro since the beginning of the year, in that time, I've only had issues with the BSP part of the system, and some (Type declaration) issues. But that's it. Also, each patch or update will fix a majority of the bugs but can you honestly say that you use every aspect of the language that has a bug... I don't think so.

My issue at the moment is not the language or the compiler, but the editor itself, and this isn't even a TGC issue.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 16:55
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Name 50 bugs that 4.1 *introduced*.. please.. go ahead and try.

I'm not going to say all DBPro faults are "user error" because they are not. There are bugs still in, some significant, some not so significant and they WILL be addressed in the coming months. We've released new upgrades regularly since launch that both extended the language and fixed it. If the likes of Paul can write something as technically accurate and impressive as 3D Mahjong and if the Purples Team can write a demo as decent as Evolution - where are all the bugs that stopped that happening?

The Alienware compo will prove this point yet again.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we have short-circuited the Universe!"
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Ian T
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 17:13
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Aye... Every competition in the past has turned up dozens of excellent programs seemingly out of the nowhere, and this is the biggest one yet... I think we'll be seeing a lot of talented programmers' creations with DBpro come into existence over the following months.

--Mouse

Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball
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Preston C
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 17:38
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That means my contest entry will prove I'm talented?

*Halleluja Chorus starts singing in the background*



Hell Begins September 2nd at 7:30 AM. Yep, schools starting soon.
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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 18:09
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Quote: "That means my contest entry will prove I'm talented?"


no just that dbpro doesn't have as many bugs as pete says it does
j/k
whens the newsletter out guys?
actually i just had a thought! do i need to sign up for the newsletter again since the site was revamped? am i missing the compo!


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 18:16
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although yeah DBPs patchs have all introduced a handful of bugs each, at the same time each patch has squashed around 50-60 bugs each.

They've also added features each patch, unlike DarkBASIC 1.02 -> 1.06 original where in that first year period it was simply bug fixxes Pro have been constantly upgrading and changing.
you've not had the exact same features from patch to patch, and the current version has the most stable core yet ... although the more advanced features still have alot to be desired - the bugs that have actually prevented us from doing things suchas the double float precision bug and such are now gone.

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Toothpick
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 18:47
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Pete, you forgot to put on your flame proof vest!
Dbp keeps on getting better with every patch, it will be
around for a long time.

A decent programmer can code around bugs anyway.
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Preston C
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 19:00
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Raven, I've wanted to ask you this for a while, do you work at blizzard or something? Seeing blizzard as your site link got me thinking that.



Hell Begins September 2nd at 7:30 AM. Yep, schools starting soon.
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 23:25
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I reckon we've got another year or so of DBPro before all the bugs are completely eradicated and the feature set is complete. At that time it is most likely we'll all be waiting for Advanced DarkBASIC Professional 2 Revisited Special Edition X Remixed the Sequel.

Afterall these years writting DBPro 'upgrades' for free, TGC are going to want to hit us with a fresh income at some point. That's economics, and to be honest more or less justified provided DBPro is indeed finished properly first.

DBPro is not about to die under it's bugs. Especially considering the demand for this genre of software versus what is currently a lacklustre competition.

I believe also the quantity of support tools for DarkBASIC is going to grow rapidly over the next year, we will probably be ending 2004 with two or three times as many supporting products - both from TGC and from 3rd party developers.

I think this because over the last few months (since the retro competition) we've seen the user base drastically change, not in terms of who is active, but in terms of the quality and technical competence of what is being delivered. Whilst there is always fresh blood to the community, I think the old hands are starting to deliver on the promises of DBPro with some very high quality dev tools, Blue being one such example and EvolutionX is another promising one, there will be more i'm sure.

Once the better tools start arriving, our games will get better. Once the games get better, more users will arrive. When more users arrive better tools start....

Pneumatic Dryll
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BatVink
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Posted: 28th Aug 2003 23:55
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Lets look at the bigger picture...

DB Pro runs over Windows...bug city! Every Windows developer is fighting an uphill battle when the operating system is so buggy. Pete, have you asked Bill Gates if he has a future?

Anyone ever bought bug-free software? Guess not. OK...anyone bought buggy software that is patched as frequently as DB Pro. I guess not too. I'm impressed by the dedication of the company to update the product as soon as they have a reasonable amount of fixes to warrant an update, regardless of the fact that another one is inevitable.

So...you got your other software patches...any new functionality? Guess not! Every new piece of functionality is a freebie, they don't have to give it to you.

Yes...I'm flaming! Only someone with no concept of building and supporting a fully fledged application could come out with such a statement. Suck it and see! Let he who is without defect in build throw the first stone!

Good work Rich, Lee and the rest of the gang. I think it is most apt that Pete's byline is "member".

StevieVee
http://facepaint.me.uk/catalog/default.php
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DMXtra
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 00:53
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DBPro does have a present and has a future.

Bugs are being fixed in each patch and things are getting stable with each release.

Ugprade 5 was a big move, see you have DirectX 9.0b, then you have video card drivers that need to be updated for DirectX 9.

For example... Geforce 4 MX does not support pixel shaders. This is a problem because people will have this video card and expect shaders to work, this is NOT the fault of DBPro, but of Nvidia and their hardware.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
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Dreamora
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 02:11
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Major Problems that aren't solved till know: not one of the highlevel cardtricks works till now (ok the FX shader system, but it's only working on some levels since it accepts FX files with failures as can be proofed through Effect Edit - DX9 SDK).
I'm talking of shading, cubemapping and reflection which only works of DBP wants too work *at least till 4.1 - don't have any one who wants to test this things for me *
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 03:10
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Shading, Bump Mapping, Cube Mapping, Sphere Mapping, Reflections have all worked in 4.1 and continue to work in 5.0. I'm not entirely sure where the misconception arose from that they don't.

More accurate would be something like "most people still don't realise what a normals map is, try to bump map with any old tga, finds it doesn't work and blames it on a bug".

Same goes for the other "card tricks", each requires a special way of doing something.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we have short-circuited the Universe!"
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Codger
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 04:23
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Please accept the "bugs" as positive, bugs come from change and languages whether computer or natural must be in a state of evolution. When change does not take place you will see not the perfect static utopia but entropy. English is evolving although not a perfect state as unpleasant nuances are always occurring, but the change however unpleasant is far better than the static that is Greek.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 06:04
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yeah but Rich to be fair there was no help on using them... they simply said to use and then listed the syntax with a small description like "bump mapping can add realism to your models but making part of it stand out" (not an actual quote just something like what is said)

that said the DBP bump mapping isn't even close to what can be achieved like the ATi normal mapper now that is one stunning peice of code for anyone who can get thier hands on it

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Falelorn
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 06:18
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Of course DBPro has a future, I followed DBPro for about 6 months, and I havnt seen 50 fixes / 100 new bugs. Thats absolute BS.

In a year, im sure we will start seeing very good games, and more people getting into Pro.
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Bulleyes
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 08:42
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I would say a software will always have future as long as the company is still developing it and most importantly supporting it. I agreed what Steevie said,

Quote: "I'm impressed by the dedication of the company to update the product as soon as they have a reasonable amount of fixes to warrant an update, "


If you think that DBpro is very buggy and you had no faith in it, try to pick some other 3-D engine, you will realize that there will be even bugs in it. You will be even more frustrated when the company doesn't respond to the bugs as promptly as you expect. What I treasure the way that DBS works is they allow close communication between the DBpro users and the DBS team as well. By this way, we know the current bugs and the implementation plan. This might allow you to better plan your project.

Secondly, another great thing about DBpro is the community support. I am impressed by the community of DBpro users developing a lot of 3rd party tools to further enhance the language, and best of all, some are given for free. For myself, I am currently exploring the FX system and hopefully I can come out with a library of cool FX to share it with all DBpro programmers out there. I am obliged to those ppl out there that had been helping me to get started with DBpro since I bought it a year ago.

My last word, give DBpro some time. No software is bugs free. Those bugs can be annoying, but usually, based on my experience, 90% there is always ways to workaround with it. Plus with the close collaboration of DBpro users and the DBS team via the bugs forum, we can speed up the bugs squashing process even faster. At the meantime, try to master the ins and outs of DBpro, and by the time it is matured, you are ready to rock, compare to those that are still hesitating onto which 3-D engine should use.

Cheers!

Bad Nose Entertainment - Where games are forged from the flames of talent and passion.

http://www.badnose.com/
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DMXtra
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 12:17
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For the few bugs that Patch 5 introduced, they are being taken care of at the moment and will be released very soon.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
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APEXnow
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 12:36
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Lee,

I can honestly say that I really feel for you mate. I was chuffed to monkeys when you sorted out that texture/lightmap issue a couple of weeks back for me, since then I've managed to get all the stuff I'm working on up to speed and are making good headway. I just can't fathom as to why so many people are having trouble with one thing or another. Like I said above, alot of the issues are unrelated to DarkBASIC Professional, so it must be frustrating having to deal with issues that boil down to something like a driver update or just misunderstood coding.

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M00NSHiNE
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 13:13
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Aye, I agree, The entire team deserve credit on what is probably the most ground breaking software production since sliced bread 3d.

Little do many people know, virtually every software program etc ever written has its bugs - and lets not forget how big and advanced DBPro is - just think how lucky we are to get so much support from the game creators. Few companies offer such regular updates/bug fixes - the team's working around the clock to help us.

Im getting pro soon and im not going to let bugs or things like that put me off getting what is the fasterst and easiest 3d programming tool i can think of.

The entire GC team deserves a pat on the back and our support - only that will give them the power to fight the bugs!!!
PEOPLE!!! HUNT THE BUGS!!! AND DESTROY THE BUGS!!!

"It's amazin' what you can do with a computer and access to t'internet"
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Ermes
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 14:32
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glory glory aleluiah , glory glory aleluiah.....

Free Download for a Free World
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MicroMan
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 17:05
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Quote: "
I am currently exploring the FX system and hopefully I can come out with a library of cool FX to share it with all DBpro programmers out there. I am obliged to those ppl out there that had been helping me to get started with DBpro since I bought it a year ago.
"


Yes, me too. I have a good AI Engine here that I'm considering DB:ing. It's written in a combination of C-Script and C++.

It's got:

* An internal script language interpreter. That means you can write your own movements and behaviour scripts.
* FSM and (some!) FuSM implementation
* It sports a very devious state known as STALK
* Boredome. The computer opponent goes out searching for the player, unless the particular object doesn't have other duties like guarding a place or going on a regular patrol.

I just need to learn DBPro a lot better before I attempt to port it. I am also considering writing a separate application in VB for making the scripts for the AI-engine.

Or, the alternative is to make a DLL out of it, but then you probably won't be able to affect the OBJECTS directly, and the AI-engine uses object oriented code to a large degree....

-----
They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
-----
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M00NSHiNE
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Posted: 29th Aug 2003 19:52
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AI is something that all DB programmers strive for - this script would be something everyone would look forward to. Hope you are successful in porting it. And if youve managed to do that in c-script/c++, then "learning dbpro a lot better" should be a cinch!!

Good luck.

"It's amazin' what you can do with a computer and access to t'internet"
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