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Geek Culture / The door shocker!

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TheComet
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2009 14:55 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2009 14:57
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Yes, I have the door shocker! It's funny when you hear your brother touch the door and the charge zaps through his hand... Until I got shocked when trying to add a discharge button so people can enter without being shocked. It is quite dangerous, I think it could kill someone if you passed it through your heart (one finger on one plate, other finger on the other plate).

Specs:

Runs on 2x 1.5-Volt AA batteries
charges a CBB21 capacitor (0.33 micro farad) up to 600 Volts.
Stays charged for up to 2 hours

You can probably calculate how many watts it releases, but I have no knowledge on how that works...

When I touched that thing, it zapped me and I could smell the hair burnt on my fingers. I wonder if you can get rid of the hair on your legs like that?

Here are some pictures of it (The last and the first are the most interesting):

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh100/TheComet92/HPIM3839.jpg
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh100/TheComet92/HPIM3829.jpg
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh100/TheComet92/HPIM3835.jpg
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh100/TheComet92/HPIM3836.jpg


Who else does crazy things like this?

TheComet


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2009 15:00 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2009 15:01
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It's called electrolysis, I believe, hair removal through electrical stimulation. It burns out not only the hair but also the root so it ain't comin' back.

This is dangerous to people with pacemakers. It's something of an irresponsible prank if it's enough to burn your hair.

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2009 15:14
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The insulation you've used on the handle looks awfully....... suspect.

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lazerus
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2009 15:28
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Its not bad.

but try using just tinfoil around the handle to compleltly hide it.

Add a Warning sign on the door, people will think its a joke.

"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes, That way, i wouldn't have your problems"
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TheComet
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2009 18:52
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Quote: "It's something of an irresponsible prank if it's enough to burn your hair."


I totally agree. I am adding a much smaller capacitor to store less current. Hopefully it won't be as strong any more...

Quote: "The insulation you've used on the handle looks awfully....... suspect."


I couldn't find anything else other than a pink condom... (It's actually a balloon).

At night you don't see it, that's good for burglars.

@Lazerus

If I only use tin foil without insulation, it will cause a short circuit with the doorknob. As to the warning sign, what do you think?

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh100/TheComet92/HPIM3840.jpg

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lazerus
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2009 18:58
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not so, use masking tape and carefully place the tinfoil over it

try this one,

http://www.rainbowsafety.co.uk/Images/Dynamic/Product/Zoom/1697_633677160414837500.jpg

"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes, That way, i wouldn't have your problems"
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Diggsey
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Posted: 4th Oct 2009 13:32
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You could put a wire along the back of the handle, with half the insulation cut off to reveal the wire (on the side not touching the handle)

You could connect one terminal to this wire, and the other to the door handle itself (as long as it conducts) and you have an invisible door shocker The wire could go through the keyhole, and the handle could be attached from the other side of the door (it would have to go through the keyhole, but just touch the other side, not actually come out), so you would only have to hide one small wire. You could paint it the same colour as the door, and it would be nearly invisible.


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Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Oct 2009 14:26
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Killed anyone with it yet???
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TheComet
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Posted: 4th Oct 2009 15:48
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@Diggsey

Nice idea, I might even consider doing that! The only problem is that the doorknob on the other side will be charged, and it only takes me to touch something wrong and it will zap me again...

The other thing I can do is ground one wire, and stick the live wire on to the door. So if anyone touches it, and they are grounded, it will be frying time!


@Benjamin

The only thing I've killed with it was one of those big noisy flies...


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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 4th Oct 2009 16:49
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While you're at it you could mix up some gunpowder, cordite or whatever you prefer, and wrap it round a very fine wire instead of the wire you've been describing. The heat generated when someone grabs the door handle just might be sufficient to achieve detonation.

I suggest you do some experimentation and let us know the results.
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Phaelax
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Posted: 4th Oct 2009 22:24
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Quote: "Runs on 2x 1.5-Volt AA batteries
charges a CBB21 capacitor (0.33 micro farad) up to 600 Volts.
Stays charged for up to 2 hours
"


A single AA battery can produce enough power to kill someone. Connect two wires to the capicator inside a disposable camera and have them stick out. Charge the flash to build up the juice in the cap. Then when something connects the two leads the energy is released. (so stick someone with it like a taser) It can release from 100-300Ma, and from what I hear 100Ma is enough to potentially kill someone.

Oh the things you learn from watching Manswers!

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 4th Oct 2009 22:48
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Quote: "It can release from 100-300Ma"


For how long? It probably takes time to actually kill. I don't intend to do any tests to find out though.
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lazerus
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Posted: 5th Oct 2009 00:05
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I powered my mini railgun from 10 disposable camera capcitors. Reached extremly high voltages. Worked till i overchraged it.

Blew up quite nicly

"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes, That way, i wouldn't have your problems"
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TheComet
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Posted: 5th Oct 2009 00:30
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Quote: "For how long?"


I don't think time matters. It's the power flowing through you. So U (Volts)* I (Amps) = P (Watts). I don't know how many watts it takes to kill, but I know that it's the watts. For example, lightning may have up to 70'000'000 Volts, but very little Amps, almost nothing actually. Multiplied together it only gives you a very small number. No wonder only 1 out of 10 people die when being struck by lightning.

When adding time, you are calculating the performance, not the power.



I never thought I could draw so much power out of two tiny batteries. It really amazes me...

@lazerus

How high in voltage did you go? If you're not sure, you can always measure how far your sparks jump and calculate : Voltage=distance (in mm)*1000

TheComet

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 5th Oct 2009 00:46
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Quote: "I never thought I could draw so much power out of two tiny batteries. It really amazes me..."


My father builds and flies remote control aircraft. A plane recently had a receiver failure and piledrove into the floor, wiping out everything from the nose back to the wing. Thankfully, everything expensive was close to the center of gravity, just two inches back. The li-ion battery, on the other hand, was not. The impact bent it past the perpendicular and shards of wood pierced one of the cells, causing it to rupture. Now here's the thing.

It still has enough power to make a loud snap and a visible spark when the connectors are held 1.5cm away from each other.

The amount of power a battery really contains is amazing. You look at them, and it's impossible to imagine the millions of tiny charges held within, on tap easily.

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lazerus
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Posted: 5th Oct 2009 01:16
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The coment, it was at least 10,000V with less than 12amps.

Based on the minium charge for it to fire. Considering i over charged it, about 16kv-20kv You have to love the physics department, they leant me thier transformers, on the condition they could watch me fire it.

It worked. I increaded the power in increments, fourth increment it blew along with sending a 0.2g graphite bar 26.4 meters.

As for the designs well they asked for a set, so i gave them mine. Im like a child you see, once i grow bored of it, i move on. It loses its intrest, so i keep on looking for the new target/goal/reach.

Thats what makes my life so fun ^_^

"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes, That way, i wouldn't have your problems"
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Phaelax
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Posted: 5th Oct 2009 01:37
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It's the amps that kill you more so than voltage.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 5th Oct 2009 14:37
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Quote: "It's the amps that kill you more so than voltage."


Yes, that is well established. What isn't clear is how long that current needs to flow for serious damage to be done. A quick search on Google failed to reveal a convincing consensus.

Anyone have an authoritative answer to this?
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 5th Oct 2009 14:41
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Lots.

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 5th Oct 2009 18:57
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Quote: "Anyone have an authoritative answer to this? "


No.

Mnemonix
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 5th Oct 2009 19:32
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Well, you can be first in line for testing if you don't mind. We want to find out.

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 5th Oct 2009 21:14
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Ok

But I want compensation for this, consisting of 1 shrubbery.

Mnemonix
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David R
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Posted: 5th Oct 2009 22:09 Edited at: 5th Oct 2009 22:12
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This is a pretty stupid 'prank', but in general fairly safe (as far as electric shocks are concerned) - purely because the average person has a resistance of about 12,000 ohms (for dry skin) meaning the current is practically negligible

EDIT:
Quote: "charges a CBB21 capacitor (0.33 micro farad) up to 600 Volts."


I take back what I said: I missed the capacitor part. 600V via a human @ 12KOhm resistance means an optimum of about 500mA. That's enough to induce v-fib (this is an incredibly flawed simplistic calculation, but even >300mA is enough to do it too)

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 5th Oct 2009 23:37
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Quote: "But I want compensation for this, consisting of 1 shrubbery."

It!

This is actually a brilliant idea for a home security system - anyone trying to get into the house gets fried.

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TheComet
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Posted: 5th Oct 2009 23:40 Edited at: 6th Oct 2009 11:58
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@David R

Please don't make me look for links and formulas...

Yes, 12 KOhms for an average person from head to toe. But this shocker passes it through the hand = much less danger. Now I am using a smaller Capacitor (0.1 Micro Farad), which squashes the chance of danger or death. There are still 600V passing through, but only a few mAmps, maybe even less.

Also, the resistance of a human can vary between 100'000 Ohms and 100 Ohms according to skin dampness (as you mentioned), air dampness, blood pressure, blood glucose, salt on skin, body height, calories currently in the body and many other things. It is impossible to die by passing this through your hand, even the first one with the big capacitor won't do the job, so don't worry.

I did some researching, and I hope you will do some as well before you start saying that I am causing ventricular fibrillations to innocent humans.

http://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=6793

Quote: "600V via a human @ 12KOhm resistance means an optimum of about 500mA."


Lol, 600V*500mA, that's 300 Watts. You will fry yourself by touching that...

600/12000 is 500mA, but you are forgetting what the capacitor can actually store. I will be using the big one (0.33 Micro Farads) for the following calculations. You may know this formula:



C=0.000033 Farad
V=600 Volts

U=(0.000033*600*600)/2 = 5.94 Watts/second (or 5.94 Joules).

In one second, 600V and 9.9mA flow through your hand at the resistance 5.94Ohms. That's 5.94 Joules of energy. As I so read in the following link, around 50 joules will kill a human when passed through the heart. Remember this is going through your hand, not your heart.

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1996-12/849483556.Me.r.html

Knowledge is power.

@ Green Gandalf

As mentioned above, about 50 joules will do the job. You can break this number up into 4 values : Voltage, Amps, Resistance and Time. But remember that the Watts and Amps also need to be over a specific value before damage is applied.

The longer you apply the voltage, the more cells you destroy.

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David R
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Posted: 6th Oct 2009 00:06 Edited at: 6th Oct 2009 00:07
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Quote: "It is impossible to die by passing this through your hand,"

Quote: "Remember this is going through your hand, not your heart."


You realise that you don't need to apply a current directly to your heart in order for it to cross your heart/related nerves? It depends entirely on the 'route' taken, which can be practically random/indeterminable (and is affected by heart beat etc.)

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TheComet
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Posted: 6th Oct 2009 00:30 Edited at: 6th Oct 2009 00:32
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Quote: "You realise that you don't need to apply a current directly to your heart in order for it to cross your heart/related nerves? It depends entirely on the 'route' taken, which can be practically random/indeterminable (and is affected by heart beat etc.)"


Yep, I realize that. But are you trying to tell me that passing through your hand is just as dangerous as passing through your heart? That is wrong. This is why you have the "one hand trick" when playing with high voltages. You screw and touch everything with your right hand, and put your left hand into your pocket. If a shock occurs, the electricity will flow through your right hand down to your legs where you are grounded, avoiding the heart as much as possible. A shock through your heart can be very dangerous.

Also, I don't know if you have looked at the images, but the electricity can only flow through your hand, not through your body. I have four plates, switching each from + to - (1. plate = +, 2. plate = -, 3. plate = +, 4. plate = -). The electricity wants to get from - to +, and since electricity is "lazy", it is going to take the shortest and easiest route, which is from a negative plate to a positive plate through your hand. There is no other path it will take. The heart rate is only affected by adrenaline released in this case.

When working with AC (alternating current), it's a different story. AC does not have a polarity (+, -), but it does have a "live" (L) wire, and a "neutral" (N) wire. Most sockets also come with a "Ground" (G) wire.

The live wire changes polarity from +230V to -230V (110 in America and UK, I think) at 50Hz, the neutral wire stays at 0 Volts. So if you touch the live wire, you're a dead man. If you touch the neutral or ground wire, you're OK. This doesn't mean you can go touching the neutral wire without fear, because there have been cases where the electrician has installed the wires incorrectly, and people have killed themselves by touching it.

In this case, the electricity will flow through the shortest way possible to the ground or neutral wire, so it isn't going in random directions, it's picking the shortest path.

All in all, AC will flow into the ground or into the neutral, and DC will only flow from - to +, and my door can not kill anyone.

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fik
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Posted: 6th Oct 2009 02:38
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You certainly prove the saying 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing'
But then you thought that was the answer from your first post
Quote: "It is quite dangerous, I think it could kill someone "


Then you set it up yo get your brother!!
Glad your not mine.
Oh and i'm sure a judge will take your post experiment research into account.
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monotonic
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Posted: 6th Oct 2009 05:10
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Quote: "I don't think time matters. It's the power flowing through you. So U (Volts)* I (Amps) = P (Watts)"


Time does matter, p =Vi only gives you the instantaneous power. Also, a high potential difference can produce a high current depending upon the resistance of the material it passes through. V = iR, therefore i = V/R, so if R is low and V is high you have a high current, the limiting factor is the charge.

01100001 01101110 01101111 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010
01110000 01101111 01101001 01101110 01110100 01101100 01100101 01110011
01110011 01110011 01101001 01100111
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Mnemonix
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Posted: 6th Oct 2009 10:39
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Quote: "It!"


Don't say that word!

Mnemonix
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TheComet
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Posted: 6th Oct 2009 11:57
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@ fik

You are right, I should have done these calculations before I test it. It's just that I didn't think I could get so much power out of 2 AA batteries, and store it in such a small capacitor. Anyway, my brother thought it was really cool and he actually wanted me to film him while he touches it again and put it on youtube.

@ monotonic

Time does matter, but what matters even more when working with capacitors is the charge, because time, resistance, amps and voltage is part of the charge.

According to to the calculations above, the new capacitor can only hold 0.18 joules of energy (600V, 0.3mA, 0.18Ohms in 1 second). And I assure you, that hardly even shocks you... (tested it on myself). 50 joules can kill, and I'm now using 0.18 joules.


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monotonic
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Posted: 6th Oct 2009 13:12
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That's what I said, but charge is directly linked to time, particularily when it comes to charging a capacitor. You seem to be just saying various quantities and hoping they mean something. Resistance only has any meaning when you discharge/charge a cap. The internal resistance (strictly speaking it doesn't have an internal resistance, but it helps theoretically to think along those lines) of a cap in a DC circuit is infinite, hence no current will flow through. But in an AC circuit as the frequency approaches infinite the impedance tends to zero.

I studied electronic engineering 08/09 (dropped out now studying physics) and I can't hardly remember a thing about what I was told it was only a few frikin months

01100001 01101110 01101111 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010
01110000 01101111 01101001 01101110 01110100 01101100 01100101 01110011
01110011 01110011 01101001 01100111
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TheComet
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Posted: 6th Oct 2009 14:17 Edited at: 6th Oct 2009 14:17
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Well, thanks monotonic for expanding my knowledge a bit!

Quote: "You seem to be just saying various quantities and hoping they mean something."


I'm saying what makes sense to me, but I haven't studied capacitors deeply yet. I agree that I don't fully understand how joules are converted into volts, amps, resistance and time.

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monotonic
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Posted: 6th Oct 2009 14:43
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Okay, I wasn't being sarcastic then I just meant that some of those things are irrelevant to what you're doing. If you're brother is going to let you shock him, I suggest putting several capacitors in parallel, he'll get a nice surprise. He'll thank you for it in the future.

01100001 01101110 01101111 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010
01110000 01101111 01101001 01101110 01110100 01101100 01100101 01110011
01110011 01110011 01101001 01100111
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 6th Oct 2009 22:47
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Looks like light is slowly dawning on this thread.

monotonic summed up the time thing nicely.
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