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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Can a decent game be done with FPSC?

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The Storyteller 01
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Posted: 8th Oct 2009 13:29 Edited at: 8th Oct 2009 13:38
I am sure one can do decent (not great but decent) games with FPSC as long as one sticks with using the editors strength and avoids its weaknesses.

I have been modding for NWN and NWN2 for years and although there are 100ds of mods and PWs done with the respect editors, they have their limits. I also know most mods for Oblivion, Gothic and Stalker and although these are top-games the variety of what a talented modder can do, is also not breathtaking.

FPSC X9 is an easy to use editor that makes the building itself so simple that one can actually *waste* lots of time to work on the story, balancing encounters and so on. Also testing is so fast, that the frustrating bughunting after finishing the game is reduced to a minimum.

Strengths and how to use them:
- lighting: be it a desert village at midday or a dark cellar after the fall, thats where FPSC games can indeed compete with pro stuff.
- physics: destroying things that are blocking a path, blowing up fuel barrels to hurt enemies, stacking boxes on top of each other to climb up somewhere. so easy to do, yet so effective.
- pathing: the waypoint system is so simple, flexible and reliable to use that one can achieve anything from (seemingly) randomness roaming to patroling with ease.
- cutscenes: one cant do lip synch conversations but (provided you have fraps or something like it), cutcenes where the PC is walking into a room (gun in hand optional) or guards are entering a building or where you see a secret door opening, are a matter of minutes.
- building: its not just advertising it really IS fast, so the levels should be large. and the level grid is so freaking big that there simply HAS to be room enough for an alternate route or some dead ends.
- level depth: there are ready-made easy-to-use gantries, stairs, elevators, even teleporters (and simple stuff to walk over a gap or chasm). Only using these makes the game really 3D and the levels appealing.

Weaknesses and how to avoid them
- no inventory: even the best mod wont give us an RPG inventory. sticking with ammo/batteries/health will have to do
- no real AI: combats will never be a challenge from a tactical pov. ammo shortage, stationary enemy snipers and fighting large numbers will make it challenging though.
- lack of media: there is not enough media to cater all genres. its no use trying to build a Jurassic Park or Star Wars game, sticking to SF, Horror and WW2 will have to do.

So looking at the list above which games can be re-done in decent way and which cant?
Doom3 can be done, Cronicles of Riddick cannot.
Dark Messias of M&M can be done, Oblivion cannot.
Resident Evil can be done, Stalker cannot.

The list is debatable of course.

And there are games that look like they are perfect for FPSC but still pose problems. Like Tomb Raider - jumping and climbing arent real strenghts of FPSC (and not half the fun in FP) while swimming is simply impossible (unmodded).

On the other hand even something like Myst can be done with a little effort in level building. FPSC allready includes triggers and switches - and no one ever said, that weapons&monsters are mandatory.

Looking forward to your opinion.

In case you find my grammar and spelling weird ---> native German speaker ^^
Scurvy Lobster
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Posted: 8th Oct 2009 13:41
My opinion is that this is thread number 1.000.000 million on this subject and therefore: YOU'RE WINNER!



Sorry if I seem harsh but there are running threads at the moment heavily debating this and we will probably have a few more new ones before this week is over.



Running my latest game superbly on FPSC and Project Blue Mod.
DestroyerHive
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Posted: 8th Oct 2009 13:42
nice explanation storyteller!

Anderson's Legacy of Chtulhu got published and sold in stores.
(my all time favorite) Hardcore Zombies, because it doesn't feel like FPSC, it feels like a published game

If every millisecond in your life was 10 problems in the world, you'd be immortal
The Storyteller 01
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Posted: 8th Oct 2009 13:45
Quote: "My opinion is that this is thread number 1.000.000 million on this subject and therefore: YOU'RE WINNER!"

How many store points did I win?

In case you find my grammar and spelling weird ---> native German speaker ^^
Scurvy Lobster
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Posted: 8th Oct 2009 13:50
Sorry, the 1 mill. isn't for use in the TGC store. They only work when spend on Ferraris

Running my latest game superbly on FPSC and Project Blue Mod.
Marc Steene
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Posted: 8th Oct 2009 16:53
Uhoh, another debating thread. It is what you make of it, there is no discussion to be had.

Quote: "Can a decent game be done with FPSC?

I am sure one can do decent (not great but decent) games with FPSC"


You just answered your own question. Of course decent games can be made, because we have evidence of them. Eldora to name one. Look at the BOTB thread.

Migration Discussion Thread: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=142497&b=21
Piracy Discussion Thread:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=142774&b=21
Jingle Fett
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Posted: 8th Oct 2009 19:31
Eh...
I think a decent game COULD be made, but it'd be extremely difficult. If you want to be current gen, X10 is where you'd have to go, but unfortunately it is too unreliable until TGC gets it's act together. Either that or X9 with a big mod.

One of my favorite examples of a good game that could be recreated in FPSC (except for a few gameplay mechanics) would be Prey. Straight up FPS action
Graphics-wise, you could get close to Riddick Dark Athena (no moti0on blur or anyf that stuff though). You could also get something similar to L4D if you really tried too (no smokers or hunters, but Boomers, Tanks and Witches should be doable). X10 has what it takes to at least be close to those games, but unfortunately the editor is so unstable there's not much point in trying; you'll inevitably get an error that will kill it.

Kravenwolf
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Posted: 8th Oct 2009 23:23 Edited at: 8th Oct 2009 23:35
The problem with everyone saying FPS Creator can't be used to make a decent commercial game has absolutely nothing to do with the engine, but the developer's limitations, as well at their outragous expectations. You can easliy make a successful, commercial game with this engine; but you have to be realistic about it. You will not make a game that outsells Fallout 3. A $50.00 engine just isn't capable of that. (Would a $200,000 Ferrari lose a street race against a $400 Pento? The Pento just doesn't have the right hardware )But as I plan to prove, you can make a game with similar graphics and gameplay features to an early Playstation 2 title.


Quote: "one cant do lip synch conversations "


Yes, you can. You would synch the character's lips in a modeling/animation program to the audio file, and then export the character into FPS Creator.

Quote: "lack of media"


Learn to model


In my honest opinion, no. I don't think that someone who doesn't have any skills outside of dragging and dropping media into the editor will do very well acheiving a commercial-quality title. (not trying to sound rude, just being honest). But, I absolutely think that someone, or a small group of people, that know how to model, animate, program, etc, can make a commercial, 'decent' game with this engine.


Kravenwolf

The Storyteller 01
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Posted: 8th Oct 2009 23:55 Edited at: 8th Oct 2009 23:56
Quote: "In my honest opinion, no. I don't think that someone who doesn't have any skills outside of dragging and dropping media into the editor will do very well acheiving a commercial-quality title. (not trying to sound rude, just being honest). But, I absolutely think that someone, or a small group of people, that know how to model, animate, program, etc, can make a commercial, 'decent' game with this engine.
"

I think exactly the opposite.

Imo its a waste of time and resources to include features in a game that are not allready included in the engine capabilities or the media.

If one sticks to work with what is provided, and uses the time to invent a motivating story, takes care of details (like huds p.e.) and bughunts, it wil be decent enough to be enjoyed by the players (which is everything I ever want from a game, be it player or developer).

But (per example)creating 2nd class media or record crude voice overs just to make the game different will rather ruin it than enhance it.

Everytime I see a thread starting with....
"I am developing a superduper game, but I need someone to do a certain weapon/character/script for me because this one is the heart of the game"
....I dont know if to laugh or cry.

One can build a complete stock-level with only one weapon, one character and one segment, which will still be entertaining.

In case you find my grammar and spelling weird ---> native German speaker ^^
DestroyerHive
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 00:30
Quote: "One can build a complete stock-level with only one weapon, one character and one segment, which will still be entertaining."

how so?

Quote: "Imo its a waste of time and resources to include features in a game that are not allready included in the engine capabilities or the media."

play HCZ you will eat those words.

Also, Bond1 and errant AI make excellent models, that make even Halo 1 look (bad)! (I'm not insulting Halo, I'm a huuuuuge fan)

If every millisecond in your life was 10 problems in the world, you'd be immortal
Plystire
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 00:42
@Storyteller:

I think your name says it all. It seems that all you look for in a game is a sotry behind everything, and if it has a great story, you could care less if you were playing a game that was composed entirely of characters made up of PONG paddles.

Your opinion is always closely-knit and I see little point in attempting to convince you otherwise. I could go into "Well, it doesn't matter what the developer cares about or even wants... when it comes to commercial, it's not what YOU want, it's about what the customer wants" but I don't see it having any effect here, mainly because everyone here makes the games that they enjoy making/playing themselves. I don't want to scare you off, but to make a game that the customer wants, you will have to do a lot of boring, monotonous, and tedious tasks to get it done..... within 3 years time.


The one and only,


Kravenwolf
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 00:44 Edited at: 9th Oct 2009 00:54
Quote: "
Imo its a waste of time and resources to include features in a game that are not allready included in the engine capabilities or the media."


Exactly my point when I said it's up the developer, and not the engine. An inventory system, better AI (darkAI), everything, it's all possible, but the developer has to have the talent, the time, and the determination to make them all happen.


Quote: "If one sticks to work with what is provided, and uses the time to invent a motivating story, takes care of details (like huds p.e.) and bughunts, it wil be decent enough to be enjoyed by the players (which is everything I ever want from a game, be it player or developer)."


Imagine for a moment, how successful Resident Evil, Call of Duty, HALO, and all of those other titles would have been if they all used the same stock WW2 characters and segments, and only changed their storylines and health HUDS.

Resident Evil: "Fight zombies in a WW2 bunker."
HALO: "Fight aliens on a different planet in a WW2 bunker."
Call of Duty: "Fight Nazis in a WW2 bunker."

My point is, no. If 100 people on the forums started making 'decent' games, and for some reason, limited themselves to using the same media, and only changing the background of the story, the games would get very repetitive and dull.


The problem that I've seen with most people using FPS Creator that believe they can make the next Fallout game or the next Left for Dead, is they can't seem to get out of the 'FPS Creator' mindset. Real world game companies (aside from having a large budget, and several developers backed with years of experience), all design the media, engine, gameplay, characters, everything...around the game's story. In FPS Creator it seems to be the other way around. People try to tweak their storyline to fit in with the little available media, and point and shoot gameplay it comes with. Which is why most of all that we see from those who cannot model are WIPS with dark corridors and cellars with a few of bond1's zombies running into walls trying to reach the player.

It doens't matter what the circumstance is, someone that can create their own media and tweaks to the engine will always have a more appealing game than someone that is restricted to playing around with what they find in the Model packs.


Kravenwolf

Bugsy
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 01:19 Edited at: 9th Oct 2009 01:56
I say this to MOST of these threads- cos I like them

when 90+ % of people buy an FPS game- what is the first thing that they will look for? the first thing that will make them have fun? unlike me, my friends dont marvel at the character models in the game, they dont compliment the realistic shaders used, they don't gasp at beautiful pieces of level arcitecture. no- they shoot some bad guys.

90 percent of the FPS market wont CARE if they are fighting aliens in a world war 2 bunker, or a non-textured BOX for all it matters- as long as there is a LOT of aliens to fight- fighting gets the most gameplay hours. FPSC would be able to make hit list titles if it would allow for more enemies- seriously. I mean- I've had a level with 10 people in it TEN!!! that (in a commercialgame) would be a joke!

(and yet it lags to 12 FPS sometimes averaging 14 maxing 16)

FIGHTING keeps the player bust and active- the designer cant expect a player to walk through a level with no enemies or gunplay just to look at the level design. that wont sell- it takes FIGHTING! DX

an example- I showed jake (my friend- the traditional bloodthirsty FPS player) a few games made here. first I showed him the game .Calibre- what is the first thing he says? no, he doesnt mention the level design, not the levels, not the model detail- but: "where are the [Mod Edit: There is a policy of no swearing even if some are covered with stars.] enemies?"

then I showed him the EAI task force 341 character fighting video- no entities at all- no level design- just a bunch of enemies to shoot. he, needless to say, loved it. thought it was "beast" and that it looked like a "real game"


you see what I mean here?


so all in all- my question is- what does it take, to have a large number of enemies in FPSC games? a powerful engine mod? a good computer? what?

answer please because I dont know.
General Jackson
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 01:25
Graphics can be awesome, but for the most part I agree with bugsy.
When I play COD2, I'm not even looking at the graphics, im trying to stay alive. (not that COD2 has awesome graphics, but they are good)

Bugsy
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 01:29
thank you- yet once again- jake could be fighting nazis in a white box and not care at all.
Kravenwolf
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 01:29 Edited at: 9th Oct 2009 01:32
Quote: "90 percent of the FPS market wont CARE if they are fighting aliens in a world war 2 bunker, or a non-textured BOX for all it matters- as long as there is a LOT of aliens to fight- fighting gets the most gameplay hours. "


If this were the case, Froggy Shootout should have sold just as well as Left 4 Dead. Level design, gameplay features and graphics aside, both had several enemies the player could shoot.

EDIT: I do get what you're trying to say and I agree shooting enemies is a key factor, but level design and graphics should not be overlooked, and are just as important in what makes a title sell on the market.


Kravenwolf

Bugsy
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 01:36
to the 10 percent- I made a joke and put a chateau prefab and 4 badguys to shoot- this is what you asked for i said

now he wants cover... wait- what do you want me to put for cover then?

a crate.

oh, and

1: my question was never answered
2: L4D had far more enemies to shoot than froggy shootout. not to mention, better blood.
The Storyteller 01
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 01:37 Edited at: 9th Oct 2009 01:42
Well...

"Automatic Update" DID use 99% stock plus custom huds.

...it looked terrific and was a pleasure to play.

PS: I didnt mean one shouldnt use Model Packs or store stuff. What I mean is, that no one has to make custom models or write a dozen new scripts to produce a decent FPSC game.

In case you find my grammar and spelling weird ---> native German speaker ^^
Bugsy
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 01:41
I didnt play it- were there LOTS OF FIGHTING!!!!!! DX!!
Kravenwolf
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 01:43 Edited at: 9th Oct 2009 01:45
Quote: "1: my question was never answered
2: L4D had far more enemies to shoot than froggy shootout. not to mention, better blood. "



1. Yes and yes.

2. ::Insert AAA game title with same amount of enemies as in Froggy Shootout here::, now compare. And better blood is a graphical feature...


Quote: ""Automatic Update" DID use 99% stock plus custom huds."


*Sigh* ::Main point goes over everyone's heads::. I give up


Kravenwolf


The Storyteller 01
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 01:51
What IS the main point?

That one can't create an enjoyable FPSC game unless being a modelling artist, scripter and voice actor?

In case you find my grammar and spelling weird ---> native German speaker ^^
Bugsy
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 01:52 Edited at: 9th Oct 2009 01:53
no one cant create one without HAVING all of these people


@kravenwolf

exactly- there ARE no AAA game titles with the same amount of enemies as froggy shootout. (they'd prolly be DDD)

if any random noob put a bunch of errant AI characters, and a bunch of errant AI guns in a stock room with some crates- it'd get a higher rating by most mainstream FPS players than would a game like... oh any random puzzle game in the WIP board.
The Storyteller 01
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 01:57
I am not sure about that. Competition winners at least tend to be games with some degree of story, puzzles and atmosphere.

In case you find my grammar and spelling weird ---> native German speaker ^^
Kravenwolf
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 01:59 Edited at: 9th Oct 2009 02:32
Quote: "What IS the main point?

That one can't create an enjoyable FPSC game unless being a modelling artist, scripter and voice actor?"


Not an enjoyable one, but a successful one in the industry (as I have stated several times in my previous posts). I still don't believe that you can throw together media from a bunch of model packs, use nothing but stock FPSC scripts, and create a game rivalry with a decent-selling commercial title that was not made in FPSC. You have to put in an effort. You have to create your own content, and you have to tweak the engine for your game. NOT the other way around.

If drag and drop in FPSC was all the effort it took to make money in this industry, then everyone here that uses this software should have already been making as much money as Treyarch by now. Heck, Treyarch would have stopped making their own engine, next-gen characters and levels, and the next Call of Duty would have been made in FPS Creator with a few model packs and a lot of stock WW2 enemies as Bugsy mentioned. I don't know how else to get my point across other than refering back to my points in my previous posts...maybe Ply was right

But, I would not at all mind if you were to give it a shot regardless, and prove me wrong. And I don't beleive I ever said FPSC games are striaght dookie without such, and some I've played here are, in fact, enjoyable.


EDIT:

Quote: "exactly- there ARE no AAA game titles with the same amount of enemies as froggy shootout."


b]Silent Hill[/b]one of the best selling horror games ever created. It relies on the pycological aspects of fear. Creepy level design, lighting, sounds, etc. Not just a lot of 'shooting enemies' in that game. Your move.


Kravenwolf

Bugsy
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 02:01
FPS games- COD4- lots of enemies
R6V2- lots of enemies
L4D - lots of lots of enemies
MW2 - gonna have lots of enemies (and will win contests)
Bugsy
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 02:22
silent hill was FPS?
The Storyteller 01
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 02:31 Edited at: 9th Oct 2009 02:40
We probably have a misunderstanding here. I think I didnt make myself clear enough how I define a "decent game"

I am not taling about earning enough money to quit the daytime job with it. And I am not talking about making Bioware say: "Why didnt WE make this game???"

I am just talking about making a game, giving it for free here and having decent people say: "If you have paypal I donate cause I did actually enjoy playing it."

Nothing more.

And a game with custom stuff will only be more appealing if the custom stuff has the same quality as the ones I can buy.

FPSC + Model Packs + free media available HAS to be enough.

MY point is that I would LOVE to create a Tomb Raider game but I have no Lara model - and if I had she still couldn't swim, climb and backflip. Now I COULD start making a model and create my own animations , scripts etc. etc. - but putting months of work into it just to STILL have a *crippled* TR clone wouldnt make sense, at least to me.

As I said its no use trying to recreate Stalker but I could still make a scary post-apocalyptic shooter thats enjoyable for people like us. Using the engine to its best is a challenge of it's own

@Kravenwolf: Your points are mostly valid, you are just thinking a level ahead compared to me.

In case you find my grammar and spelling weird ---> native German speaker ^^
Kravenwolf
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 02:40 Edited at: 9th Oct 2009 02:41
Well, yes I think we do have a misunderstanding. So many threads like these asking about commercial quality standards, I guess I overlooked something.

Absolutely. It's more than possible to create an FPSC game that is enjoyable to other users here. Just look on the WIP board. It's easy to recognize the WIPS that stand out from the rest (::cough::cough:: ) ://end arrogance. And it's easy to tell the difference from the ones that were thrown together in an hour, and those that have been a WIP for several months.

Though, I will not retract what I said earlier. Knowing how to model, animate, progam, etc will only make your games more appealing to everyone here. It would seem that someone that is so dedicated to this hobby would be more than willing to take 30 minutes a day to learn how to model, to learn how to script...to make their games more unique. I did


Kravenwolf

dark peanut
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 02:41 Edited at: 9th Oct 2009 02:43
Woohoo another one of these threads where I get to poltely agree and disagree with others!!!

All jokes aside:
Don't want to argue this that much so here goes,
1. I completely agree with Kravenwolf's stand on media. Go look at some of his screenshots and then look at something done by someone who doesn't know how to model/script/texture at all. The point is Kravewolf's games are excellent because they are (I'm pretty darn sure) %99 models made by him. I say %99 because he uses EAI weapons

2. Kravenwolf you have piqued my interest to the max. Absolutely cannot wait to see what kind of game you hae in the works.

3. Lets just drop this whole subject and get back to the fun-ness of creating games!! I'm absolutely sure Lee and company didn't create FPSC so that a bunch of people could sit around arguing with huge posts that run for several pages about whether or not yu can achieve commerial quality with it!!

Quick re-cap for those wo don't like reading lots of stuff: custom everything maximizes the gameplay experience %500 and sets your game apart from others(most of the time). I'm interested in Kravenwolf's new game. Drop it please so we can get back to having fun with the software we love.

Till the next one of these threads pops up all

DANG IT!! Everyone really needs to stop resolving their issues while I'm writing

dark peanut

Check out my Ultimate Competition Entry here: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=153854&b=25 Ultimatum: The Final Deadline

KeithC
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 05:35
I still love playing Call of Duty 1 Multiplayer. Some things can last for a LONG time.

General Jackson
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Posted: 9th Oct 2009 06:00
I actually like older games like cod1, cod2 MOHAA, and so on better than modern games

Nomad Soul
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Posted: 10th Oct 2009 00:18
FPSC is capable of a successful commercial game.

Its the amount of time required to put something of that quality together and maintain that level of quality throughout the game.

We've all seen that FPSC can deliver on the graphics front and gameplay / performance front with mods.

Most people just want to get something out there with average quality for people to enjoy rather than showcasing something which is intended to be sold.

Also most people here are working on games by themselves and don't have a skilled team of professionals taking some of the workload so its a slow process to put something really special together.
The Storyteller 01
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Posted: 10th Oct 2009 00:38
There is one game in the BotB thread that i replayed yesterday.

It had ONLY custom weapons with custom hands - the later looked terrible.
It had ONLY custom creatures - which had terrible textures
But it included a regular darkgrey stone staircase in otherwise brownish segments.

Would it be a better-looking game with MP weapons/hands? YES
Would it be a better-looking game with stock creatures? YES
Would it have been worth the effort to retexture the stairs? YES

Thats an example for what I mean. Using custom media only benefits the game if the quality is at least equal to what you can buy.

My "Black Beast Tavern" was meant to be for my own Fantasy Game but honestly it didnt end up like I Imagined it to be. So instead of keeping it and use it *exclusively* in my game I rather released it and buy/make something more suitable to my vision. Or I cancel the tavern scene alltogether.

The door I retextured however, is according to what Kravenwolf is saying (I think). It would be absolutely senseless doing a Fantasy Game and using the stock WW2 doors, therefore I had to make some myself (it was before MP35 came out)

Thats what I am trying to communicate with this thread. Not to waste time and talent on things that dont actually make ones games look better (or more original). As a player I would always rate quality over originality

In case you find my grammar and spelling weird ---> native German speaker ^^

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