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Geek Culture / a fun question i would like all to answer:D

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Quik
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 18:05
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so, me and my friends have been speculating, since scientists and such believe that when you fall from a taaaaaaaalll building, its not the impacts wich kills you, but chock, now lets say we would test this on a person, HOW would you test it? the person cannot die by the impact anyhow (this means, he cannot smack into the ground and die) AND, you may only use things that EXIST (no lazer guns here)


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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 18:27
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It's not the impact but the shock?
Surely it's the impact which causes the shock anyway, so moot point?

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Quik
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 18:32
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argh! you killed the idea at an instant X3


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Venge
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 18:44
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Quote: "It's not the impact but the shock?"


No, he said chock:

They stop your car from rolling away when you're on a hill. I suppose if you fell on one of them from a long distance, you could die.





On a related note, I think there was something on CSI a while back like this. A guy was blindfolded and put on a helicopter as a prank, and made to believe he was being pushed out from very high up. In reality, he only fell about 6 feet to the ground, but apparently had a heart attack because of it and died anyway.

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 18:49
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Quote: "A guy was blindfolded and put on a helicopter as a prank, and made to believe he was being pushed out from very high up. In reality, he only fell about 6 feet to the ground, but apparently had a heart attack because of it and died anyway."


Fail.

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Jeku
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 18:56
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Quote: "On a related note, I think there was something on CSI a while back like this. A guy was blindfolded and put on a helicopter as a prank, and made to believe he was being pushed out from very high up. In reality, he only fell about 6 feet to the ground, but apparently had a heart attack because of it and died anyway."


I could have sworn they do that in Army training here, at least according to my sis who has been enrolled for the past 15 years. During boot camp they blindfold them and push them out of a helicopter that's close to the ground. I have no idea what it's supposed to prove.


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Fallout
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 19:00
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Quote: "I have no idea what it's supposed to prove"


Perhaps that Canadian military training has some teething problems?

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Aertic
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 19:00 Edited at: 16th Nov 2009 19:00
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Quote: "I have no idea what it's supposed to prove."

Not relying on you're eyes but you're own instincts to land you down safely and accurately? Taking a big jump like what they do and landing incorrectly could end up in breaking one to two limbs, afaik.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 19:00
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That people are jerks?

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Aertic
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 19:01
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Quote: "That people are jerks?"

/winner!!1

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David R
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 19:45 Edited at: 16th Nov 2009 19:47
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Quote: " I have no idea what it's supposed to prove."


Yeah, seen a similar thing on TV in the UK. However, on there the situation was made out to be really bizarre/life-threatening (i.e. at a great height, but with small chance of survival and a poor quality parachute that's not likely to work etc.) - I think it's just supposed to prove that they're willing to carry out orders and potentially risk their lives regardless of the situation / fear.

Quote: "Not relying on you're eyes but you're own instincts to land you down safely and accurately"


Nah, because they build it up and make them think it's a real jump. So it's obviously related to fear etc.

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Nickydude
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 20:26
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Quote: "so, me and my friends have been speculating, since scientists and such believe that when you fall from a taaaaaaaalll building, its not the impacts wich kills you, but chock."


So you're saying you can fall any height and not get killed, as long as you're unconscious?



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Quik
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 21:08
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didnt mean like that, i meant that ur dead before u hit the ground =P


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 21:21
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It's possible that there's a way to diagnose the cause of death and study the body of somebody who has committed suicide...just a thought.

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Quik
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 21:27
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my personally idea is to make a person bungee jump from a TALL house, and make it so they are like 1 feet from touching the ground, if they scream on their way back, theyre alive, if they dont, theyre dead ^^


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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 21:46 Edited at: 16th Nov 2009 21:46
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I think what they meant is "shock" as a synonym for "impulse", change in momentum. If your momentum goes from a high number to a low number in a very long period of time, you'll be fine. If it goes from a high number to 0 in almost no time (IE falling from a giant building onto concrete), then you won't be fine at all.

Still, i'm pretty sure that you don't die from the mental shock, but rather the organs that are now in your brain and your brain where your organs were, and the arm that used to be attached, and the - you get the idea

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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 22:43
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It's the sudden stop that kills not the fall itself. It doesn't need to be tested on a human because it's being used all the time on inanimate objects. Satellites constantly "fall" towards Earth to maintain their orbit.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 22:49 Edited at: 16th Nov 2009 22:57
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I've jumped from extreme heights, higher than any building. Freefall doesn't kill anyone unless you're completely gay and/or old. Or hit the ground at full speed.

If you jumped off of a building you would fall for like, 1 second. They did a demonstration for us at airborne school. They dropped a 180 pound dummy off of a tower. It hit the ground almost instantly.

I mean, seriously, does anyone consider skydivers (which I'm talking about)? They don't die when they're falling. This question and this thread are dumb and ill thought out.

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 22:54
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Gay people die from freefall?
I'm screwed, I guess.

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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 23:03
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Quote: "I mean, seriously, does anyone consider skydivers (which I'm talking about)? They don't die when they're falling. This question and this thread are dumb and ill thought out."


No need to ruin the humor in this thread.

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David R
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 23:05 Edited at: 16th Nov 2009 23:11
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Quote: " Freefall doesn't kill anyone unless you're completely gay and/or old. Or hit the ground at full speed."


Err... unless you know you're falling to certain death. I'm fairly certain it's quite easy to die from stress/shock (during free-fall) in that scenario

Quote: "If you jumped off of a building you would fall for like, 1 second. They did a demonstration for us at airborne school. They dropped a 180 pound dummy off of a tower. It hit the ground almost instantly. "


Very scientific of you not to mention the height of said building(s)

Seriously though, you can free-fall for a long amount of time off some very tall buildings. I didn't want to bring it up, but if you ever see footage of the people that jumped from the Twin Towers (grim as it is/was) they fell for a long old time - a good 3 or 4 seconds.

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Rudolpho
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 23:38
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Quote: "I'm fairly certain it's quite easy to die from stress/shock (during free-fall) in that scenario"

People dream that all the time, at which point the stress is likely equal to that in the real scenario, as long as the dreamer believes it to be real.
Contrary to popular belief, there's no proof of anybody dying out of stress / chock from such dreams.

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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 23:54
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Quote: "I have no idea what it's supposed to prove."


Speaking from similar military experience, it's not to show you're willing to follow orders and all that B.S. It's done to make you not fear jumping out of an airplane, parachuting, the landing, etc.

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David R
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Posted: 16th Nov 2009 23:54 Edited at: 17th Nov 2009 00:02
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Quote: "People dream that all the time, at which point the stress is likely equal to that in the real scenario, as long as the dreamer believes it to be real.
Contrary to popular belief, there's no proof of anybody dying out of stress / chock from such dreams."


You can't get into a true state of psychological shock from a dream at all.

But that's beside the point: You most likely wouldn't be in a state of shock from free-falling in itself. But in a scenario where you are plunging to certain death, you would be in a state of shock from what preceded the jump, or over your impending death. Not necessarily about the fall itself

Quote: "Speaking from similar military experience, it's not to show you're willing to follow orders and all that B.S. It's done to make you not fear jumping out of an airplane, parachuting, the landing, etc.
"


Why do it blindfolded? Why even pretend? In the show I saw, the soldiers had already done this / proven they could do it (in a real jump). The 'fake' is obviously used for a different purpose (also, fake jump was so low it was pointless - literally a few feet or so. So it's obviously nothing to do with practicing correct position or reaction to the jump. It's definitely aimed at some kind of psychological 'breaking')

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lazerus
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Posted: 17th Nov 2009 00:11
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someone committed suicide by jumping (on purpose) out of a plane withoit a parachute. What a way to go.

I felt sorry for the cleanup crew and if the fella changed his mind...


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Posted: 17th Nov 2009 00:25
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Quote: "It's definitely aimed at some kind of psychological 'breaking'"


Thats...exactly...what...I was saying

Breaking your fear. Ever jumped out of an airplane on a pitch-black night? I'd rather fall out by accident during the day, at least I can clearly see my death coming without fancy equipment on my head.

Not being able to see (i.e. blindfolded) while doing something is often more startling than when you can see whats happening to you, shouldn't need to state the obvious. "How high am I", "What am I falling on to?", "Can't let myself tense up even though my body wants to", and so on. Perhaps you should look up "Survival School" on Hulu (just found it a couple days ago), I mentioned it in another thread and it might give you insight into why things like this are done.

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David R
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Posted: 17th Nov 2009 00:34 Edited at: 17th Nov 2009 00:35
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Quote: "Thats...exactly...what...I was saying"


So why did you contest what I said originally? Calling out a point as BS when it's actually your own point. Nice.

Quote: "risk their lives regardless of the situation / fear.

[...]

So it's obviously related to fear etc."


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Darth Vader
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Posted: 17th Nov 2009 00:42
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We've got this book somewhere in the house titles "One in a Million" and it lists all these really amazing coincidences. one of them was about this fella that wen parachuting for the first time and his parachute didn't go out he panicked so much he fainted (This was at 3000 feet btw). When he hit the ground because his entire body was limp he actually survived with minor injuries!

I'll see if i can find something on it to prove the story, I know some people here a skeptics


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David R
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Posted: 17th Nov 2009 00:44 Edited at: 17th Nov 2009 00:46
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Yeah @ Darth Vader, there was an air hostess who survived a plane crash due to a similar thing during the 70s/80s (and she was the only survivor - she got ejected from the plane and survived the fall due to being unconscious. She landed somewhere pretty convenient too, like on snow or something along those lines. But still incredibly lucky)

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 17th Nov 2009 00:48
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The tower at airborne school is 250 feet tall. That's 76.2 meters.

Quote: "The tallest man-made structure is Burj Dubai, a skyscraper under construction in Dubai that reached 818 m (2,684 ft) in height on 17 January 2009.[2]"

so says Wikipedia. Skydivers jump from 4000 meters and fall for about a minute before their chute opens.

I've jumped out of planes at night. It's just dark. And cooler (temp). You fall faster once your chute opens because of the temperature difference.


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Posted: 17th Nov 2009 00:49 Edited at: 17th Nov 2009 00:49
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Quote: "So why did you contest what I said originally?"

Oops lol, I copied the wrong quote.

Quote: "I think it's just supposed to prove that they're willing to carry out orders...."

There we go, that's better.
It has nothing to do with orders, it's all about what we have already been over
By taking the oath (in the US military at least), you've already sworn to follow lawful orders - nothing is needed to prove you will do so.

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Thraxas
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Posted: 17th Nov 2009 01:21
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I always thought that the blindfold exercises were exercises in trust.

I saw a program where the recruits were blindfolded and told to lie on the floor. They were told a jeep would drive past them. A jeep did drive past very slowly but the officers rolled a tire until it hits the recruits head. Some of the reactions were incredibly funny
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 17th Nov 2009 01:37
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Not sure shock is the right term. It's the sudden stop, the sudden change in direction. If you take away the pavement, have someone fall 30 stories and then stop suddenly in mid air, they'll be some damage done that way as well. Consider your brain stopping that fast inside your skull, your fluids, your neck and other limbs would probably be pretty sore as well. Obviously that damage is much worse when concrete stops you.

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 17th Nov 2009 01:53
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Quote: "We've got this book somewhere in the house titles "One in a Million" and it lists all these really amazing coincidences. one of them was about this fella that wen parachuting for the first time and his parachute didn't go out he panicked so much he fainted (This was at 3000 feet btw). When he hit the ground because his entire body was limp he actually survived with minor injuries!"


Just a mathematical evaluation of that (not to prove anything, just to analyze it )

averaging the results i found (from this website), the terminal velocity of a skydiver seems to be 59 m/s (although it does depend on the weight of the skydiver). Any calculation i could to to see how long before the skydiver hit the ground would be inaccurate, because the skydiver's acceleration would keep decreasing as he neared terminal velocity. If we assume our skydiver to be 80 kg, his momentum would be 4720 kg*m/s at the moment of impact

4720 kg*m/s to 0 kg*m/s in a very small amount of time...

Lets see, a car weighing 850 kg (1870 lbs) going 5.55 m/s would have that same amount of momentum (12.4 miles per hour).

hmm, that doesn't sound like a huge amount... but keep in mind, that would NOT be comparable to getting hit by a car, it would be comparable to standing in the middle of the road, putting your hands out, and making the car come to a full stop without moving your feet. Even more realistic, put a wall behind yourself, and then have the car run into you (and if you go through the wall, you're breaking the rules!)

Quote: "I've jumped out of planes at night. It's just dark. And cooler (temp). You fall faster once your chute opens because of the temperature difference."

Huh, thats wierd... I would have assumed you would fall slower (colder=denser)


Back to the original thingy... If anyone has died from the shock (or pain) of almost hitting the ground (dying before they hit the ground) or during the process (after making contact with the ground, but before having their organs scrambled to the point of death), then i'm sure it's very very rare.

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Lonnehart
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Posted: 17th Nov 2009 03:05
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Quote: "Jeku said:

I could have sworn they do that in Army training here, at least according to my sis who has been enrolled for the past 15 years. During boot camp they blindfold them and push them out of a helicopter that's close to the ground. I have no idea what it's supposed to prove.
"


I think I saw something like this on The History Channel. Not sure which branch of the military did this.

The applicant was lead into a dark warehouse and the door was closed so he couldn't see anything. A voice on a speaker would tell him to climb a ladder and walk across a platform. The applicant then got to the edge of the platform to what he assumed would be a very long drop. He was then told to jump...

The ones who did as told found that they landed safely in some hay and that the drop wasn't that far. They were put on the front lines.

The ones who said "No way!" reversed the way they came. They ended up with desk jobs in the military.

The ones who decided there had to be another way besides jumping and actually did search for another way would have found another platform and ladder that led them down and out of the warehouse. These guys became the commanders.

In the beginning there was nothing. There'll be nothing in the end...
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Phaelax
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Posted: 17th Nov 2009 08:55
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Speculation has said that if you fall from a great height in your dreams, upon hitting that ground in your dream could kill you because your mind believes it to be real.

From personal experience, it does not. What it did do was wake me up very suddenly when I hit the ground. Pretty sure my heart did skip a beat.

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Quik
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Posted: 17th Nov 2009 09:03
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i agree on that Phaelax =P


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demons breath
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Posted: 18th Nov 2009 00:05
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Could put a heart rate monitor on them transmitting information ridiculously quickly. On the other hand, who cares, the end results the same. All I want to know for sure is that whatever kills them, they're not getting back up.

"The fools may crash down upon us in thunderous waves, but we shall Jeku slap them back from whence they came"
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