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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / [LOCKED] DarkMATTER 2

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Scraggle
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 12:19
News amongst the grapevine is that there is a DarkMATTER 2 on the way. So what's that all about then? The original was an update of DBC as well as the collection of objects and textures. So is DM2 also an update or is it just a collection of goodies?

Oh yeah .... when can we expect to see this rolling off the shelves/zipping down the net?

Nine lives to choose from and I get stuck with this one!
DMXtra
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 13:01
Its just a collection of goodies. 3D animated models of all types and maybe other stuff like skysheres and such.

No updates are in DM2... Its a download only product as far as I know and it should be out really soon.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 13:33
It's a collection of models. No Updates or textures (etc). Just some cool models. Download only at the moment (40MB download). Will be out within the next 14 days.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we have short-circuited the Universe!"
adr
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 18:46
/me claps his hands excitedly

oh dear, I didn't just do that did I?

Considering it's just models, and not textures, sounds or updates how much can we expect to pay?

A wise man once said: "I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
Dreamora
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 21:43
5$ since you get whole CDs full with models, textures etc for 20$ in shops
Richard Davey
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2003 13:30
Please.. I challenge you - show me a CD full of good quality, low poly, well textured, bone-animated, designed for games models in .X format for $20. Either online or in a store and I'll buy a copy for you.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we have short-circuited the Universe!"
adr
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2003 14:59 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2003 17:34
I've bought model CDs for £5 before and they're quite poor to be honest. I mean, I don't want my money back or anything, you just put it down to "get what you pay for" type experience.

"show me a CD full of good quality, low poly, well textured..."

Show me a CD which gets full from 40MB and I'll pay whatever you like ... Just trying to gently imply you're not comparing like with like here.

However, given that someone might try to sell, let's say, a shotgun for, I dunno, $30, then you can see how this swings both ways.

Might I suggest to TGC then when they come up with a price for this package, keep in mind that bandwidth charges compare favourably to design, production and distribution of packaging - The convenience factor of downloading development materials for both parties involved should be reflected in the price.

A wise man once said: "I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
JoshK
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2003 19:52
A single quality low-poly textured weapon model will goes for about $35. I know, because I have bought them.

I'm looking forward to seeing the content of this package. I think it's important to have a really complete listing of screenshots and .avi animations showing the models' motions.

Even if you only ended up using a single model from it, $20 would still be a deal compared to what computer artwork typically goes for.
Simple
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2003 20:39
I've sold model weapons for more than $35 ..... if you consider the amounts of work which goes into making and texturing a model, it's worth paying. ( as an individual model ) BUT you won't sell many.

BUT, if you have a large model pack collection of say 100 models, you can't just add them all up at $35 each and expect to get paid $3500 for it. More like $35 for the whole lot ... what a bargain !! and you sell a hell of a lot more, which makes up for not selling them individually.

100 models@ $35 = 0.35 each ..... can't be bad

Not saying thats how much DM2 is going for

UberTuba
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2003 23:54
30$ for a shhotgun??? you can get them free of the net. And
if you cant see what u want. wings 3d is grat for stuff like that
and its free

the artist formally known as darkfluff
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 06:55
theres no governing board controling the prices of work... sadly this means alot of amatures will ripp you off good and proper on the internet.

a half decent static model will take a professional modeler around 2-3hrs of work, which they'd be pay'd around $21-30 for.
but i've never seen anyone who has sold thier work on the internet even come close to what a professional will achieve, yet you see thier work going at ludicrous prices of $35+
Oftenly with no regards to style, adaptation, originality, copyrighting, texture memory, vertex memory, optmisation, low-med-high polygons counts, or even oftenly looking good from more than a single angle.

Darkmatters models are good in this respect as it was all very well polished work at realtively well thought out standards for games in mind. Personally the only thing that really made me chringe about the models provided were the animations were very ropey.
Slow, cumbersome, not very natural in the movement just very performed.

Hopefully the Darkmatter2 models will have more life to them.

Eric T
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 07:00
i feel another flame war a comin....

Working on 4 projects 2 RPG(programming texturing and 3d map), 1 3rd person shooter (Programming), and a special project.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 12:50
Quote: "Show me a CD which gets full from 40MB"


Hence why we're not selling it on CD perhaps? The 40MB is the Install file. It will unpack to just over 100MB worth of actual model data.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we have short-circuited the Universe!"
Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 15:07 Edited at: 4th Sep 2003 15:28
I completely agree with Raven on that, the Dark Matter Models are nicely made and textured, but the animations aren't very good, there's not very many of them (Jump animations for example? A RANGE of attacks? Plus Crouching, climbing, running, tiptoeing etc all seem pretty basic for action games) and the animations are often not particularly lifelike or useable. BUT they are modelled and textured very well, with good polycounts, and compared to some places, its a very reasonable price indeed

Personally for future model packs I would have thought a complete range of models on a theme would be very useful, for example a wide range of characters, weapons, scenery, vehicles, buildings and textures for a particular theme like war, jungle, egyptian, urban, space, fantasy etc.

Then people could decide what type of game they were interested in making, and have a complete resource available for them for making that game.

Probably the only type of full game realistically makable with Dark Matter 1 was a late 20th/early 21st cenury War game, as this was the only genre with an expansive set of models.

An urban game would be close to replicable, but I don't think there was a wide enough range of vehicles or characters to make it fully possible.

Some of the others were great, for example the Ninja, but had no real other models in the pack to fit with it (Other oriental models, weapons and characters?)

BUT like I said, for the price the models are well made and well textured, and reasonably priced.

Personally high on my list of things to release would be an explosion pack, and a sound effects resourse.

(BTW I'm working on similar things myself, but I thought I'd give some advice on possible ideas you may want to use in the future )

Quikly Studio Pro. Soon. Honest.
adr
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 15:46
Hopefully, DM2's adoption of skeletal animation will make adding in extra animations a piece of piss.

Quote: "Hence why we're not selling it on CD perhaps?"

Dude, you took my quote out of context. Besides, I think I leveled the fields quite nicely after that like a regular Kofi Annan.

A wise man once said: "I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
Simple
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 16:12
QUOTE:
a half decent static model will take a professional modeler around 2-3hrs of work, which they'd be pay'd around $21-30 for.

$21-30 for 2-3 hours work ...... your getting bumped off !! hang on ! call it $30 ... thats about £19 UK for about 3 hours work ... thats about £6.33 per hour for a professional modeler

LOL !! what a mug !! ... so you're telling me that a pro modeler gets just above the minimam wage for making models ??

LOL again !!! I'm definitely staying freelance

adr
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 16:46
Keep in mind that state-side, they probably don't end getting stung 75% tax* on earnings like we do....

Where's Mouse to tell us the virtues of living in a tax free state?

* - rough, embittered estimate of the taxes on my salary

A wise man once said: "I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
Rob K
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 16:48
@Simple

That assumes that you only sell one copy of your model, sell 5 and it really bumps up the per hour rate.

The DarkMATTER models were good in parts, but there were a few problems. First the animation was a bit poor, secondly everything was too militaristic, there was no "normal guy" or "normal girl" for you to play around with for example.

Simple
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 16:53 Edited at: 4th Sep 2003 16:59
Even if it's Tax free, thats still only about $10 per hour for being a pro modeler

Damn !! people earn more than that in third world sweat shops making GAP clothes !!

I wouldn't get out of bed for that sort of money on a daily basis ... well, maybe if I was a school leaver I would

OH, and 75% Tax ?? what part of the UK do you come from ?

@ Rob .... But thats not what he's trying to say. He's saying a pro modeler would be paid $21-30 for 2-3 hours work. NOT $21-30 for every time they sold the same model.

adr
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 17:27
"OH, and 75% Tax ?? what part of the UK do you come from ?"

You didn't read my disclaimer. Besides, it feels like 75% - paying for the gits who don't feel like working, a state pension I won't see, an education system which has financially crippled me for the next 10 years, a public transport system I don't/won't use ...

dammit I'm bitter today.

A wise man once said: "I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
Simple
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 17:40
LOL !!!

Hehe, thats the UK system summed up then These politicians are so clever don't ya think ? They probably just sit there playing SimCity4 all day to test how it would effect the country !

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 18:23
Jnr Professional Artists in the UK tend to start at around £12-15k/year ... as do professional programmers.

you don't become and artist for the money, you don't become a programmer for the money.
i know that freelance work can earn me over 10 fold more than what i currently earn - i mean christ i could earn upward (and have) of $4,000/week to create CG for Television adverts.

personally sickens me to think about working like that though, working alone without anyone else, wondering when the next job will come, never truely caring what the contracter wants ... wondering more about how much i'll be paid than the art.

oh yeah a real nice way to live and work eh - i might only earn a pittance to what i could. But quite frankly i know that i should be working because i love the art i'm creating, not because i want the money. ya know freelance is just such an impersonal and empty way to work ... sure you'll have regular customers, not the same as working on a team.
You can't replace the security of knowing that you can just shut off once you go home if you want, or knowing you will be able to make rent without a problem, or wondering if you could afford that next holiday or get a new car because your unsure if there will be work next week.

you know what freelancers lack, which personally i think is nescessary to create properly.

Passion for thier work

... sure they can make things look nice, but it just doesn't have that pazzaz or finness. Endusers can see this too, they won't understand why one model doesn't look right but perhaps a crap peice of work does - but it all comes down to that passion.

All an artist or programmer should have on thier mind is to create the best work they can ... ya'll think Lee started DarkBASIC because he felt he could get millions?
ya'll ever stop to think how even through all of those bugs that DarkBASIC had, why you never stopped loving the language?

well as i said, hopefully Darkmatter2's animations will perhaps be a little more with the je na ces qoi eh
didn't really wanna go off on a tangent but, i hate freelance artists and programmers (hate publishing houses too atm, but always hated freelancers)

Eric T
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 18:30
I think I'll grab a soda..


(BTW, I have noticed a trend of any Topic Simple and Raven post in turns into flamebait..... lol)

Working on 4 projects 2 RPG(programming texturing and 3d map), 1 3rd person shooter (Programming), and a special project.
Simple
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 19:06
LOL !!

Money makes the world go round ! world go round ! world go round !

Getting paid for freelance modeling is even better when you already have a decent job and you then come home to do something you enjoy doing ( And get paid for it )

Yup ! the money sure is nice

JoshK
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 19:28
You can get CRAP models for free on the Internet. You can't get quality textured models for free.

A typical free untextured 12,000 poly weapon:
http://www.turbosquid.com/HTMLClient/FullPreview/FullPreview.cfm/ID/147895/Action/FullPreview

A good-quality $30 shotgun:
http://www.metalearth.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=85&osCsid=5e28ef3059d5761382ac553abd39b4a4
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 19:35
that says its $20 ... that aside i'm not sure what exactly is so great about the artwork on there.

-- -- --

no point in trying to make a point to deaf ears really is it, all they see is green - everything else doesn't matter.
I'd like to know though, you honestly telling me that - the shotgun there for $20 is better than the free one i gave away here?

most of the models are are kinda substandard, they make up for poor polys with textures which quite frankly are the standard garish stuff that you come to expect from people who retail stuff online.

you want something good and for free get ya ass over to polycount and ask someone - you could even have a pro make you something as a side job for less than what these guys charge.

Eric T
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 19:43
As i said...Flamebait..lol /me gets more food

Working on 4 projects 2 RPG(programming texturing and 3d map), 1 3rd person shooter (Programming), and a special project.
Simple
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 19:52
QUOTE:
I'd like to know though, you honestly telling me that - the shotgun there for $20 is better than the free one i gave away here?

Erm, I'd say YES raven ! I think it is

Eric T
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 20:06
Yeah that 20$ one is better...

Working on 4 projects 2 RPG(programming texturing and 3d map), 1 3rd person shooter (Programming), and a special project.
Simple
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 20:13
But hey ! what do you expect for free

And there's not a lot of people who work for love, I prefer working for money ( it pays dem dere bill )

Eric T
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 20:41
nice new Sig simple... looks like a compalation of your 2d work..

Working on 4 projects 2 RPG(programming texturing and 3d map), 1 3rd person shooter (Programming), and a special project.
Simple
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 20:51
Thanks !

Actually the only 2D images in there are me holding reven vegeta's head and the grim reaper logo, the rest is all 3D work

Ian T
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 21:50
I think your work is very nice . I especially like the minotaur.
The one thing that bugs me is the misuse of apostrophes on your site, but otherwise it's all good

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball
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JoshK
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Posted: 4th Sep 2003 22:02
Polycount has such a reputation, but I have posted job offers there several times, paying money up front, and I get nothing.

I don't know what your model you posted looks like.
Mattman
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Posted: 5th Sep 2003 00:45
I never noticed that was RAven's old head, lol :p

Got a knack for finding secrets??? Jingot Racing --- A new brand of Racing --- Only from Nightwatch Studios

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Sep 2003 06:07 Edited at: 5th Sep 2003 06:12
it'd over at a post in the 3D Forum josh ... the Model Warehouse post has it if i remember.

i totally forgot to ask one of the mods to sticky that, maybe i should now cause it would've been a useful post. not sure if the pictures will show though.
ya know if you have any particular jobs i could ask around the polycount users see who's doing what at the time, i think Scott is currently free ... that guys got some talent behind him.

[edit-]

http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=14660&b=3

posts disappear so quickly do to the 90% crap thats posted in that forum ... wish we had an 'inane questions' forum so we can cut the others down to mostly work. ho hum

Eric T
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Posted: 5th Sep 2003 08:40
http://www.toya.net.pl/~kazzie/flash/youare.swf

hehehehhe i think that site is made for one certain person in here.. names not mentioned...

Working on 4 projects 2 RPG(programming texturing and 3d map), 1 3rd person shooter (Programming), and a special project.
haggisman
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Posted: 5th Sep 2003 12:28
I think Liquidz Snake should get banned...
Eric T
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Posted: 5th Sep 2003 12:37
hey it's only my opinion...

Besides i feel i'm only speaking for the people at RGT.... thats all it was for..

Working on 4 projects 2 RPG(programming texturing and 3d map), 1 3rd person shooter (Programming), and a special project.
Eric T
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Posted: 5th Sep 2003 12:39
and also.. its not the worst flash Doc ever posted...

remeber Solidz_Snake's Go F*** yourself homepage?

Working on 4 projects 2 RPG(programming texturing and 3d map), 1 3rd person shooter (Programming), and a special project.
haggisman
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Posted: 5th Sep 2003 12:39
I don't care if its your opinion or the peoples over at RGT, but im sure inciting flames is against the forum rules...
Eric T
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Posted: 5th Sep 2003 12:42
How can it incite Flames.. no names have been mentioned... and no names will be mentioned..

But Rich ban me if you want.... its just a forum for hells sakes..i do enjoy it... but if i can't have an opinion like everyone else... then i don't care.

Working on 4 projects 2 RPG(programming texturing and 3d map), 1 3rd person shooter (Programming), and a special project.
haggisman
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Posted: 5th Sep 2003 12:48
It can incite flames because its so obviously aimed at one individual who will be offened and is known to flame back. Nobody said you cant have an opinion just not expressing it in such a way that would cause more problems. I mean for gods sake its like poking a bear and not expecting it to bite off your arm.
Eric T
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Posted: 5th Sep 2003 12:56
well if the one indvidual wasn't so annoying.. and such a manic liar.. maybe i wouldn't poke at that individual... but that individual is getting on my nerves and plenty of other peoples neverves in the process...

So maybe if you say somthing the indvidual would eventualy learn somthing... but then again some individuals never learn.. but it is still worth trying to teach that individual.

Now do you see my mentality

Working on 4 projects 2 RPG(programming texturing and 3d map), 1 3rd person shooter (Programming), and a special project.
empty
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Posted: 5th Sep 2003 14:47 Edited at: 5th Sep 2003 14:48
Getting completely off-topic now, but oh well.

Quote: "It can incite flames because its so obviously aimed at one individual who will be offened and is known to flame back. Nobody said you cant have an opinion just not expressing it in such a way that would cause more problems. I mean for gods sake its like poking a bear and not expecting it to bite off your arm."

So in other words it would be ok if it was aimed at someone someone who wouldn't flame back? That's odd.
I remember a post where this individual tried to offend me in literally every sentence. And there were a lot of sentences. I don't take this individual serious, thus I don't care whether he should be banned or not. But if calling someone an idiot or the likes is reason enough to get kicked, this individual should have been banned long time ago, because he did it more than once- not only to me.

I awoke in a fever. The bedclothes were all soaked in sweat.
She said "You've been having a nightmare and it's not over yet"
IanM
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Posted: 5th Sep 2003 15:12 Edited at: 5th Sep 2003 15:13
Snake, Empty, please read this post (http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=8843&b=2)

It applies to you to. Things have been calming down over the last few days and we don't need them stirred back up again.

If you don't like what someone else posts, simply ignore it.
empty
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Posted: 5th Sep 2003 15:23
I will ignore it unless air castles are sold as facts.

Quote: "It applies to you to."

I hope that applies to everyone else too

I awoke in a fever. The bedclothes were all soaked in sweat.
She said "You've been having a nightmare and it's not over yet"
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 5th Sep 2003 21:34
Quote: "These politicians are so clever don't ya think ? They probably just sit there playing SimCity4 all day to test how it would effect the country !"


This is perhaps the only time a politician ever gets anything right, and that is purely because the gameplay is bugged.

Pneumatic Dryll
Cassi
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Posted: 8th Sep 2003 01:06
Forgive my ignorance but I am very new to this dark basic thing!

I understand that darkmatter is an update to the original dark basic including models and textures. But do those models and textures also work in Professional?
Scraggle
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Posted: 8th Sep 2003 03:45
Yes Cassi - the models and textures can be used in both versions of DarkBASIC

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