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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / DBPRO DX10 and DX11 ???

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Zipir
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Posted: 20th Nov 2009 00:34
DBPRO will support DX10 and DX11 soon? or at 2010?
Mobiius
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Posted: 20th Nov 2009 15:17
It wont support it at all most likely. It's built around DX9 and it not likely to change.

Maybe another version of dark basic will, but nothings been confirmed, so don't hold your breath.

Your signature has been erased by a mod because we're sadistic losers with nothing better to do. (joke)
mr Handy
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Posted: 20th Nov 2009 21:43
1. What do you mean 'support'? What do you need from DX10 or DX11?
maybe you mean shaders, but in this case you'd better move on OpenGL, yep.
2. AFAIK one of the feautures of DX11 is to speed up and optimize
programs made for DX9.

I hate shaders...
EdzUp
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Posted: 20th Nov 2009 22:15
There was talk about DBPro X10 but not much has been seen lately

-EdzUp
tiresius
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Posted: 20th Nov 2009 23:25
The last thing talked about with DBPro X10 was that there were no plans to do it. And this was from Mr. Bamber himself in a newsletter interview.

I'm not a real programmer but I play one with DBPro!
CSGames94
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Posted: 21st Nov 2009 03:52
I think DBPro X10 maybe nearing completion because, they released DBPro X9 for free and usually that signals something new.
Syncaidius
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Posted: 21st Nov 2009 21:56
Good point Master13.

mr Handy
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2009 15:41
What do you expect from DX10 in DBPro? (big shiny label "now supports DX10" not count)
I really want to know! Even suggests are welcome.

I hate shaders...
Mobiius
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2009 15:45
It's funny, even though the guy who writes it says he isn't going to do it, people are still expecting it to turn up!

Crazy!

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CSGames94
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2009 16:38
Quote: "It's funny, even though the guy who writes it says he isn't going to do it, people are still expecting it to turn up!

Crazy!"


Well how many times have you heard bungie say they weren't making another halo game?
Zipir
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2009 18:39
i was hear somethings about DBPRO X10...so development is not a bad thing right
new engine = support new shaders +++new graphical effects +++ vs
did you see
Quote: "unigine"
's benchmark (DX9 vs DX10 vs DX11)
there are many differences DX9 VS DX10...mostly DX11
mr Handy
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2009 20:23 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2009 20:28
About DX10 feautures: http://translate.google.ru/translate?hl=ru&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.gamedeff.com%2F%3Fp%3D150%23more-150

This is google translation and of course it has a lot of errors!
Hope link works as it should.

And I think now you should realize that DX10 feautures is for professionals only. And DX11, of course. Btw, main DX11 feauture is on-fly tesselating. Really need it? Where? Also, you must have graphic card that has hardware support of DX10.1 and DX11. Have one?

New DX will be in DBPro, when users will be able to use it. Simple, eh?

I hate shaders...
mitch793
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2009 21:01
By the way, they said about DB x10 on Ricks youtube channel...

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tiresius
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2009 21:21
Quote: "By the way, they said about DB x10 on Ricks youtube channel..."

You mean this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_kgpYygQgE
If that's the one, then yeah... that was in January 2007. Since we're approaching January 2010, by my reckoning that means it was 3 YEARS AGO.

I have more recent news than something 3 years ago. The July 2009 newsletter had an interview. Did any of you read it? I'll paste the important parts here:

1. What is going on with DBPro X10?
Lee: Currently DarkBASIC Professional X10 only exists as an internal version of DBP, used to compile the FPS Creator X10 source code. As it stands, the DirectX 10 specific commands are incomplete and undocumented, and for this reason it has not been available to the public. We had hoped to bring this internal version to a point that could be released commercially, a goal that has been pushed back given the additional community lead development in FPS Creator and the main DarkBASIC Professional language. The internal version of DBP X10 will continue to be maintained for the benefit of FPS Creator X10 as the possibility of releasing it to the public still remains an option.

2. Can we use the current plugins with DBPro X10. And when is it coming out :o We get discount for purchasing DBPro?
Lee: There are no plans to release DBP X10 at this time, and so we don't have a release schedule for the product. If a release was due, we would certainly offer an upgrade price for existing DBP users. The internal version is based on the DirectX 9 source code and so many of the non-3D plugins should work fine. The 3D plugins however will not work without further modification (and in fact the DarkLIGHTS plug-in required substantial modification before we could use it in the FPS Creator X10 game engine).


So you see, there are no plans to release a DBPro X10. And the way I interpret it, that means it ain't gonna happen anytime soon. TGC is making good money on iFart games and FPSC X9/X10, there is little money in developing programming languages.

I'm not a real programmer but I play one with DBPro!
lil marioman
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2009 21:23 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2009 21:24
Quote: "And I think now you should realize that DX10 feautures is for professionals only. And DX11, of course. Btw, main DX11 feauture is on-fly tesselating. Really need it? Where? Also, you must have graphic card that has hardware support of DX10.1 and DX11. Have one?

New DX will be in DBPro, when users will be able to use it. Simple, eh?
"


I agree. But to correct a few points :

-On the Fly tessellation is availible on almost all hardware, but DX11 hardware allows it to be much faster and more practical for games

-Sure, the main feature is hardware tessellation, but there's also
HDR texture compression, DirectCompute 11, Shader Model 5...

Anyways, think about it for a second. Do we really need DBPro for DX11 or 10? Look at Call of Duty : MW2 for a second. It has AMAZING graphics. What version of DirectX do you think it uses?
Same goes for Crysis (even though it has a DX10 mode, DX9 still looks awesome). They are both using DirectX 9. The same DirectX that we have. Look at Evolved's Shaders. They're a great example to show how much graphic power we really have with DX9.

That aside, Lee said that he probably had no plans to release DBPro X10 whatsoever. All DBPro X10 basically is, is just a few DLLs for Dark Basic Pro that allow DX10 functions to be used. Anyone here, with the right determination, can make one on their own, and release it.

There are also a few misconceptions about DirectX 10 and 11. Things like :

-Improving graphics and making games so much better

This is partly true. But remember, DirectX10 gives you the tools to do that. It doesn't automatically shades your model with uber high level Parallax shaders. Any DirectX programmer should know that DirectX is not all about graphics themselves. There are many parts to DirectX, and the most interesting feature which is probably not known to 50% of people here, is DirectCompute.

I think it's wonderful how you can divert everyday physics/AI tasks to your GPU. That way, your CPU has less work to do. If TGC was to release DBPro X10, I would not buy it for it's graphical enhancements, but for it's computing to the GPU.

I honestly think that a lot of people want DBPro X10 because they can make stuff like FPSC X10. Yes, you can, but it requires quite a bit of coding knowledge on your part. Don't think your game will automatically have ragdoll, and smoke particles, and water and bloom, etc. You have to add these in yourself.

To be honest, I think most people still need to grasp the awesome technology that is before us - Direct X 9.



david w
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 04:06
I know this may not mean much to the DBP crowd, but if you know C++ you can use my C17 static libs (Their FREE) to create games. I have a Direct X 9 lib, but the upgrade path is clear to Direct X 11. So if you must have Direct X 11, sometime in the future with little to no code changes maybe this is an option.
Mobiius
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 16:57
If you buy that DarkSnippets thing (or whatever it's called) it has some DX10 functions in it. (I believe they were tests for FPSCX10 but running on DX9.

You might want to check those out.

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mitch793
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 17:17
Fair enough.
I dont really check this kind of stuff.

[url=http://steamcard.com/]

mr Handy
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 17:30 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2009 17:31
@lil marioman

You're absolutely right. All eye-candy games run DX9.
To read about new pro feautures of dx10 and 11 you may visit link I've posted before.

I hate shaders...
EdzUp
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Posted: 24th Nov 2009 23:32
TBH DX9 is good enough, the only reason I can see the requirement for DX10/11 would be if someone has Windows Vista or 7

-EdzUp
tiresius
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Posted: 24th Nov 2009 23:46
Quote: "TBH DX9 is good enough, the only reason I can see the requirement for DX10/11 would be if someone has Windows Vista or 7"

The only thing I find annoying (other than M$ breaking backwards compatibility) is that M$ doesn't ship their last two OS's with DX9 alongside DX10/11. Why would they do that? If someone wants to play any game made prior to this year they are going to need to install DX9 anyway. It just doesn't make any sense and it is annoying for indi developers and new Vista/Win7 users, especially if you want to be in the Casual Market where those users don't think about their DX version ever.

I guess I'm also annoyed that DBPro has poor intial DX checking, so we can't avoid stupid dx3d9_31.DLL errors or whatever they are.

I'm not a real programmer but I play one with DBPro!
Mobiius
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Posted: 25th Nov 2009 09:06
Quote: "I guess I'm also annoyed that DBPro has poor intial DX checking, so we can't avoid stupid dx3d9_31.DLL errors or whatever they are."

Don't you get an error that tells you which version of directX you need?

I seem to remember getting that error when running programs I've made after reinstalling and not upgrading to the latest version?

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Syncaidius
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Posted: 4th Jan 2010 10:24
I know its a really big bump but, I just noticed, even Rick vanner has said on that video tiresius posted:
Quote: "FPS Creator V1 was produced in DarkBASIC Professional. FPS Creator X10 is produced using an inhouse version of DarkBASIC Professional X10, we are working on the comsumer release."


So, either he slipped up 3 years ago, or they've dropped the x10 idea now.

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 4th Jan 2010 18:58
If they ever do release a DBPro X10 (or 11, since that'll be new soon) I really hope they optimize the engine. Particularly the collision detection commands and efficiency, because I'm kind of relying on those instead of external .dlls (though I'm going to learn Sparky's soon for my next game, and possibly Newton as well). I'll use Blitz3D as an example. It's really fast, and even the polygon detection is fast (though not perfect), and it's all really simple to set up. You declare some constant variables, set up a type variable, assign it to the specified entities to collide, then identify just which kind of collision you want with a simple flag variable (1=box, 2=sphere, 3=polygon). In the end it's really only a few small lines of code, whereas with DarkBASIC you have to write tons of it if you're using the native commands.


So yeah. TGC, PLEASE improve the collision detection system and I will continue to love you all forever!


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=PRoF=
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Posted: 4th Jan 2010 19:40 Edited at: 4th Jan 2010 19:41
I'm with Lil Marioman, Dx9.0c is good enough for most commercial game makers; and it's good enough for me.

If TGC ever release DBP dx10/1, then I expect it will be a whole new product (e.g DBP v2.0) which will mean paying for it which will no doubt enrage a lot of the n00bs here.

@Tiresius:
I'm actually thinking of writing a tutorial to demonstrate methods to check for the correct version of DX9.0c before running a DBP app (Writing a batch file to check the existence of the correct .dll's which then relays a message in clear English to the user, or including the DX9 installer in your games installer) if folks think this might be handy?

@coffeecoder:
Have you looked at the Sparky's collision thread?

Quote: "I've had this sitting around for a while now, with the posibility of including it as core commands in DBPro.

But in order to preserve legacy code, and avoid the complexity of adding it in, it's being released as a seperate TPC DLL.
"


Sparky's collision dll IS tgc improving DBP's collision system.

[edit] Spelling mistakes :$ lol

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 4th Jan 2010 19:44
Quote: "Sparky's collision dll IS tgc improving DBP's collision system"


True...I guess I meant that I'd just like the commands to be native and the user wouldn't have to install a plugin (although once you know how it's as easy as walking). It can be discouraging to new users who are getting headaches trying to get the collision commands to work properly, only to find out that they have to install a plugin and learn more commands. While it isn't a bad thing to learn that, it can be annoying.


Sign up here!
=PRoF=
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Posted: 4th Jan 2010 19:49
@Coffeecoder:
Half the beauty of DBP is the TPC plugins. I mean, without IanM, Cloggy, Sparky, RobK to name but a few then the Language wouldn't be half as good as it is now.

Altho I must admit I spent my first few years with DBP adamant that I wasn't gonna use any plugins, and that I was going to Master vanilla DBP before moving on.

Outscape
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Posted: 4th Jan 2010 19:52
Quote: "I think DBPro X10 maybe nearing completion because, they released DBPro X9 for free and usually that signals something new."



Making a language free to make far more people try it out to then release a more powerful version of the language at a cost, and therefore encoraging all the previous free users to now buy the paid one..

What company would stoop that low!
TGC would never do that!

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 4th Jan 2010 19:53
Yeah, I'm really starting to love plugins, actually. There's one called BBB GUI that is free and allows you to create basic GUI elements. While it's still buggy, the developer is working on it and I can't wait for it to be completed. Then I can use me some actual GUI for my programs!


Sign up here!
Kryogenik
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Posted: 4th Jan 2010 20:31
I guess this is sort of off topic, but here it goes. If you can't get Dark Basic to run on Dx 10, wouldn't the next best thing be to include dx 9 in your game? Is there somes dlls you can put in the game folder to run stuff that needs dx 9 or do you need to include a dx installer? Wanted to know just because some people might be tentative to install stuff or they might be using someone else's computer to play the game.

Codesurge is so awsome, thanks Hyrichter.
Syncaidius
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Posted: 4th Jan 2010 21:37 Edited at: 4th Jan 2010 21:39
Quote: "If TGC ever release DBP dx10/1, then I expect it will be a whole new product (e.g DBP v2.0) which will mean paying for it which will no doubt enrage a lot of the n00bs here."


If the n00bs get enraged about that, then they don't deserve a free copy of DBP x9 either and should be shot on sight. TGC have to make their money somehow.

The Slayer
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Posted: 5th Jan 2010 00:22
Quote: "If the n00bs get enraged about that, then they don't deserve a free copy of DBP x9 either and should be shot on sight."


Well, that's a bit harsh, is'nt it? I'd say, let those nOObs first do a little programming test, and if they pass, they are in.

Slayer rules!!! Yeaaah, man!
Indicium
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Posted: 5th Jan 2010 00:36
lmao i like the test idea, anyways remember, Xbox 360 uses DirectX 9, and those graphics are pretty damn awesome, why do you need a version of directX that is barely supported and won't improve your graphics an awful lot?
Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 5th Jan 2010 00:39
Quote: "Xbox 360 uses DirectX 9"


No wai!! I didn't know that (though I guess it makes sense since you can use XNA on a PC with DirectX 9 installed...). Those graphics are pretty dang impressive!


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Mobiius
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Posted: 5th Jan 2010 18:18
It uses a custom directX 9 with X10 addins as it's a specific build version specific to the 360.

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Syncaidius
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Posted: 5th Jan 2010 20:30 Edited at: 5th Jan 2010 20:34
Quote: "why do you need a version of directX that is barely supported and won't improve your graphics an awful lot? "


DirectX 10 has a lot of support now, considering everywhere you look now, all they sell are directX 10.1 or above cards (dx9 backwards compatible of course). Not to mention all of the people I see around here giving their own DX10 cards a mention now and then.

Anyway, heres a few reasons why I'd have a DBP x10/11 anyday:
Texture arrays - these enable swapping of textures in GPU without CPU intervention, so thats already a small amount of cpu freed up for other stuff (thus making DBP faster)
Instancing 2.0 support - quoted from MSDN: "allows multiple instances of similar meshes, such as armies, or grass or trees, to be rendered in a single draw call, reducing the processing time needed for multiple similar objects to that of a single one"
Predicated Rendering - Another quote from MSDN: "Allows drawing calls to be ignored based on certain conditions. This enables rapid occlusion culling, which prevents objects from being rendered if it is not visible or too far to be visible"
Geometry Shaders - Well wikipedia can help you here, because there are way too many uses for these to list here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometry_shader
Shader Model 4.1 support - because DBP's way of using shaders is a pain in the back side right now, not to mention some of the new stuff they've added to SM4.1 to make it a bit easier/faster to do certain things in shaders.
Tessellation (DX11) - quoted from MSDN again: "A method used for increasing the number of visible polygons from a low detail polygonal model at runtime", pretty sure you can think of a use for this (*points to a huge pile of DB/FPSC model packs*)
Multithreaded Rendering (DX11) - Allows the rendering of the same Direct3D device object from different threads on multi core GPUs and CPUs
Compute Shaders (DX11) - Exposes the shader pipeline for non-graphical tasks such as stream processing and physics acceleration, similar in spirit to what OpenCL, NVIDIA CUDA, ATI Stream achieves.

Most of those would make DBP hell of a lot faster and allow it to be more flexible.

5867Dude
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Posted: 5th Jan 2010 21:48
I personally see the DGS Bonanza Pack as a last chance to make money off DBPro X9 and I am predicting that DBPro X10 will be released in a couple of months. That or they abandon this project and head on to Direct X11 (DBPro X11)

Math89
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Posted: 6th Jan 2010 12:29
It wouldn't make DBpro much faster. The main problem comes from the core functions and the fact that the user has very little control on the way things are drawn.
If all these functionalities are implemented in DBPro X10/X11, it would need some very low level commands, and thus, only a few people would manage to draw a simple cube.
mr Handy
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Posted: 6th Jan 2010 18:01 Edited at: 6th Jan 2010 18:07
I'd like to comment this:
---
Anyway, heres a few reasons why I'd have a DBP x10/11 anyday:
Texture arrays - these enable swapping of textures in GPU without CPU intervention, so thats already a small amount of cpu freed up for other stuff (thus making DBP faster) /yep, thats very good, already done in FPSC. it's very bad that x9 is not supporting that...
Instancing 2.0 support - quoted from MSDN: "allows multiple instances of similar meshes, such as armies, or grass or trees, to be rendered in a single draw call, reducing the processing time needed for multiple similar objects to that of a single one" /what about dbpro instancing function?
Predicated Rendering - Another quote from MSDN: "Allows drawing calls to be ignored based on certain conditions. This enables rapid occlusion culling, which prevents objects from being rendered if it is not visible or too far to be visible" /that's can be done now, just some math, lod, brains, and using .dbo
Geometry Shaders - Well wikipedia can help you here, because there are way too many uses for these to list here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometry_shader / useful only for particles (and similar to particles), but although there probability of making good particle plugin for dbpro x9.
Shader Model 4.1 support - because DBP's way of using shaders is a pain in the back side right now, not to mention some of the new stuff they've added to SM4.1 to make it a bit easier/faster to do certain things in shaders. / not useful at all, only for pro's/crytek
Tessellation (DX11) - quoted from MSDN again: "A method used for increasing the number of visible polygons from a low detail polygonal model at runtime", pretty sure you can think of a use for this (*points to a huge pile of DB/FPSC model packs*) / not useful at all
Multithreaded Rendering (DX11) - Allows the rendering of the same Direct3D device object from different threads on multi core GPUs and CPUs / you should know, that dx11 will render dx9 applications in multithreading mode too! hail x11 and x9!
Compute Shaders (DX11) - Exposes the shader pipeline for non-graphical tasks such as stream processing and physics acceleration, similar in spirit to what OpenCL, NVIDIA CUDA, ATI Stream achieves. / modern cards has built-in hardware support for boosting physics, but time will show usability of this.
---

as you can see, only x11 will be useful - as it will speed up your x9 game. other stuff (except first one) is not useful as it can't be used by shader-beginners. dont forget, that TGC is not pro AAA $$$$$$$ makers, we all are indy (indie?) game makers, our power is originality. honestly, x9 is enough to make ALL crysis effects.

happy holidays!!!

EdzUp
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Posted: 7th Jan 2010 18:20
Well I can see it being an issue when DX9 gets canned sooner or later.

-EdzUp
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Indicium
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Posted: 8th Jan 2010 11:09
My guess is DirectX 9 will be discontinued at the same time as microsoft stops supporting XP, in 2014 i think?

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Mobiius
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Posted: 8th Jan 2010 11:50
Sounds about right, TGC have until then to release an updated Dark Basic version then!

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=PRoF=
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Posted: 8th Jan 2010 13:02
Just to play devil's advocate, but would it be possible to write a third party plugin to give DX10/11 functionality?

Mobiius
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Posted: 8th Jan 2010 14:07
No, because the core functionality is specifically written for DX9, which is nothing like the way DX10 + is written which is why you cant run DBP projects on DX10 systems without first installing DX9.0c.

You'd need to re-write almost every single DBP command plugin to use the new API, which is essentially creating DBPX10.

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Indicium
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Posted: 8th Jan 2010 19:12
So you can't mix and match two versions of DX? That kinda sucks.

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Mobiius
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Posted: 8th Jan 2010 19:36 Edited at: 8th Jan 2010 19:37
No, but you can run them both side by side.

*edit* On Vista and above at least.

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Diggsey
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Posted: 9th Jan 2010 11:49
Why go for DX10? DX11 is already out, and it's backward compatible with DX10.

Syncaidius
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Posted: 9th Jan 2010 14:18 Edited at: 9th Jan 2010 14:23
Quote: "as you can see, only x11 will be useful - as it will speed up your x9 game. other stuff (except first one) is not useful as it can't be used by shader-beginners. dont forget, that TGC is not pro AAA $$$$$$$ makers, we all are indy (indie?) game makers, our power is originality. honestly, x9 is enough to make ALL crysis effects."


You missed the greatly improved instancing out from DX10 too.
If you haven't seen how much instancing has improved since from DX9 to DX10, check youtube for DX10 instancing and you'll be amazed.

FPS creator X10 also uses it, which is how they managed to pull off higher numbers of objects without lagging as badly as FPScreator X9 does when you have the same amount of entities/objects in one scene.

Quote: "Why go for DX10? DX11 is already out, and it's backward compatible with DX10."


Whatever TGC have made with DX10 so far should work fine on DX11 anyway, so like you said, theres no reason for them to ignore DX11.


EDIT:
Also, how many of you don't have a card capable of DX10 graphics? Most of the people I see talking about their system specs on the forums have a DX10 capable graphics card (G8000 series or Radeon 2000 series and above).

Phaelax
DBPro Master
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 9th Jan 2010 15:00
A DX 10 version of DB would effectively kill off all XP users, which I'm guessing is still a lot of us. I have no intention of every upgrading to Vista just to use it, and Win7 still seems unlikely in my case.

And why are we worried about features in DX 10 when we have yet to see DBP fully utilize what DX9 can do?

Besides, OpenGL is better than DX anyway.


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" ~ Arthur C. Clarke
mr Handy
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Sep 2007
Location: out of TGC
Posted: 9th Jan 2010 16:21
Quote: "A DX 10 version of DB would effectively kill off all XP users, which I'm guessing is still a lot of us. I have no intention of every upgrading to Vista just to use it, and Win7 still seems unlikely in my case."


i think DB must be improved to x11 version, skipping x10. although, it must be done when x11 videocard with hardware support will be cheap enough - in common case all of us have winxp, and for now win7+top card x11= $$$$$$$$$

Quote: "You missed the greatly improved instancing out from DX10 too.
If you haven't seen how much instancing has improved since from DX9 to DX10, check youtube for DX10 instancing and you'll be amazed. "


okay, what about db instancing? is it too bad?

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