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3 Dimensional Chat / good weapons?

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Afrokid
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 15:45
hey people,

i have just finished my exams and am about to get back into modeling.
i have decided its about time i start making weapons and i was wondering how many poly is the limit (before it'll lag) without hands and how much with hands. thankyou.


~Afrokid

The End Is Nigh

And on the 7th day he had a carrot, it was good.
Gamerfreak331
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 19:30
I think it's about 2000 or something, i don't know about the difference with or without hands

F33r my cheats, lol - a famous statement made by master chief.
General Jackson
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2009 19:46
I would say keep it around 2000-3000 at the max

The Storyteller 01
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Posted: 24th Nov 2009 01:14
Since we have so many excellent modern day weapons available I hope you'll be doing an SF gun

In case you find my grammar and spelling weird ---> native German speaker ^^
Leaning Objects To The Side
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Posted: 24th Nov 2009 04:18
Afrokid, are you thinking about making guns like in unreal 3? now that would be be freaking Awesome! i know whatever you decide to make it's going to be nice.. i can't wait to see what you come up with... i hope you have a great day. Good Luck.

Cheers,
Tanya.
Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 24th Nov 2009 08:47
I would set 7000 as a maximum.

Afrokid
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Posted: 24th Nov 2009 09:24 Edited at: 24th Nov 2009 13:45
Quote: "I would set 7000 as a maximum."


awesome, ive been playing around and have been getting around 5k without hands, so if i can make hands with >2k poly it'll be good

Look out EAI, Here i come

[Edit]

for my first ever propper weapon i'll make a simple one..the M3 Super 90



~Afrokid

The End Is Nigh

And on the 7th day he had a carrot, it was good.
Afrokid
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Posted: 24th Nov 2009 14:22
Double Post

here is a W.I.P of it so far



C&C would be helpfull

~Afrokid

The End Is Nigh

And on the 7th day he had a carrot, it was good.

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Afrokid
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Posted: 24th Nov 2009 17:06
Sorry for tripple post,

Updated it a bit..im thinking of making a new thread for them soon.



and under it



~Afrokid

The End Is Nigh

And on the 7th day he had a carrot, it was good.
Gamerfreak331
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Posted: 24th Nov 2009 17:10
Colours are a bit weird, if that's the model color

F33r my cheats, lol - a famous statement made by master chief.
A r e n a s
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Posted: 24th Nov 2009 17:39
I like the model. The textures (and lightmapping) could use some work though. I recon the model is good and deserves EAI quality lightmaps and textures.

Inappropriate Name
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Posted: 24th Nov 2009 17:45
Looks great so far.
Afrokid
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Posted: 24th Nov 2009 17:49
Quote: "I like the model. The textures (and lightmapping) could use some work though. I recon the model is good and deserves EAI quality lightmaps and textures."


thanks, that means a lot to me

those colours arent the textures, their just painted on so i can see the deepness and so its not one straight white colour and everything blends together.

im about to go to bed and i will continue it tomorrow after school

~Afrokid

The End Is Nigh

And on the 7th day he had a carrot, it was good.
Asteric
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Posted: 24th Nov 2009 18:35
I would actually say you could go for about 10k without hands, because what you can do is delete unseen faces in game, however sometimes it is a waste to add details that can be achieved via normal maps.

Afrokid
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Posted: 25th Nov 2009 18:29
ah ok, i just finished the M3 Super 90 and its just under 2k poly



i hope to make arms and animate it for fpsc by this time next week

~Afrokid

The End Is Nigh

And on the 7th day he had a carrot, it was good.
Quik
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Posted: 25th Nov 2009 18:32
2k polys = Quads?

looks great though


[Q]uik, Quiker than most
Afrokid
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Posted: 25th Nov 2009 18:45
yea quads, should i convert it to triangles?

thanks for the nice comment

~Afrokid

The End Is Nigh

And on the 7th day he had a carrot, it was good.
RUCCUS
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Posted: 25th Nov 2009 18:59
I dont understand why so many polygons are needed for a gun. 5000 polygons ?! Thats insane. I can't see there being a need for any more than 1000 polygons, and thats pushing it. What are you guys modelling that requires so much detail? Every little button and notch?
Quik
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Posted: 25th Nov 2009 19:00
if for TGC it should, though it might be done in the engine itself^^


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Afrokid
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Posted: 25th Nov 2009 19:02
well, CoD4 + have more then 10k on most weapons

and no im not modeling "every" button and notch..only about half


~Afrokid

The End Is Nigh

And on the 7th day he had a carrot, it was good.
Quik
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Posted: 25th Nov 2009 19:06
RUCCUS: that depends, if u got a nice engine that supports many polys, i dont really see a reason NOT to model every button and notch =P though, for an old engine, then u can easily skip a lot of them.

all depends on the engine, and the gamestyle ofc, if its a toon game, they wont be necessary, neither will it look good, just messy. realistic games require a little bit more.. realism in the weapons aswell.


[Q]uik, Quiker than most
RUCCUS
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Posted: 25th Nov 2009 19:12
Quote: "RUCCUS: that depends, if u got a nice engine that supports many polys, i dont really see a reason NOT to model every button and notch =P though, for an old engine, then u can easily skip a lot of them."


Thats not logical. If you can achieve the exact same effect with a low poly mesh and a quality normal map and texture, then all of those polygons you saved can be translated into more enemies on screen, more map objects on screen, bigger / more detailed maps, etc.

I'm not saying don't push the envelope, obviously if your engine is fast enough to support a lot of polygons on screen at once, then by all means use enough polygons to get a good quality of detail into the model, but 5 - 7k? There's no need for that many, its just a waste of modelling and rendering time and puts un-needed stress on the rendering.
Quik
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Posted: 25th Nov 2009 20:07
Quote: "logical. If you can achieve the exact same effect with a low poly mesh and a quality normal map and texture, then all of those polygons you saved can be translated into more enemies on screen, more map objects on screen, bigger / more detailed maps, etc.
"


ofc, if the game is supposed to have many enemys at the same time, then u have to reduce poly count on weps and such, although, u CANNOT reach the same result with normals and such, as they dont bump out of the weapon/into the weapon. although, u can get a similiar result, although, if u have the power to make it better,i do not see why not? it all has to do with what kind of game u are to make and what engine u have. if u are to make a 3rd person shooter with lots and lots of enemys then by all means, reduce the polycount on the weps and such, as, they will barely be visible, but if its a FPS, then, the weapons is at center, therefore theyre necessary.


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RUCCUS
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Posted: 25th Nov 2009 21:41 Edited at: 25th Nov 2009 21:50
With a quality normal map and a good texture, you can achieve a visually un-noticable difference 99% of the time if you know what you're doing. I can't imagine a time where you would want to purposefully limit yourself to the amount of enemies or map detail you would have on-screen, nor could I imagine a time where you would want to exchange polygons for these items in place of a few extra bumps and nobs on a weapon that the user won't pay attention to.

I understand the concept of normal maps, I know they only adjust the texture lighting to give an effect of detail, but this is all that is needed in most cases. The way I see it, if a part of your mesh is going to bump out more than it's width or height, then it should be modelled, otherwise a normal map will suffice.

Comparing polygon counts to models from next gen games like COD is unreasonable as well. If this is for use in FPSC, or a DBP-made game, you should always be aiming lower. The source engine and UT3 engines have been rediculously optimized in the render pipeline to speed things up, and being programmed in a lower-level language grants them even more speed.

The reason these weapons of 5-10k polygons do work in most FPSC games - from what I've seen - is because all of the map objects are very low-poly. This is fine, I completely agree that if your weapon is going to take up a third of your screen space then more detail is necessary, however it's redundant to go over-the-top and pack the weapon full of polygons when these could be much better used for adding more environmental detail while still maintaining a weapon model that looks unrecognizably different to the common gamer.

Take a look at this image:



Aside from the barrel, is there anything noticably different between the 5218 tri and 3776 try versions? This is what I'm talking about; polygons have been added just for the sake of adding polygons. I bet with the right normal map and texture, the different between the 5218 version and the 1804 version would still be unnoticable aside from increasing the polycount on the barrel, which would only bring the entire count up by 100 tris max.

Another point about the image; in the 3k version there are prime examples of what a normal map could simulate perfectly. Those ridges on the pump / hand grip, the circle notch above the trigger, and the inset grooves running the length of the back of the weapon, all could be simulated with a normal map bearing no visually noticable change.
SJHooks
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Posted: 26th Nov 2009 19:58
Nice tips Ruccus. I normally try to do that, but I've no idea how to add those LOD stages, or lower the poly count without remaking the model. I know certain 3D modeling programs have such a tool, but Blender, to my knowledge, doesn't. If there is, can someone please tell me? I've been working on several high poly models to which I planned on baking normal maps to, but never got a chance to or did correctly seeing as some parts of the model baked didn't match correctly with the bak-ee. That and it would really help for when you model an organic object, like a hand, you can make a mesh with some boxed out fingers and a boxed out palm and wrist, then when you apply subsurf/subdivide, you can bring the polycount down. But that's just one of the many problems on my list

Typos, they can't live without me.
Quik
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Posted: 26th Nov 2009 20:21
My tip is to lower it manually, like deleting edges and such ^^ thats how i do it(using 3ds max but blender should be able to delete edges too)


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SJHooks
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Posted: 26th Nov 2009 20:30
Quote: "My tip is to lower it manually"
Yeah, I do that, but its much more time consuming, and it doesn't apply to things that a "lower poly" tool does, so I'm just curious if blender can do something like that

Typos, they can't live without me.
Kravenwolf
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Posted: 26th Nov 2009 20:48
Quote: "I know certain 3D modeling programs have such a tool, but Blender, to my knowledge, doesn't."


Go to Mesh > Scripts > Poly Reducer.

Kravenwolf

Quik
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Posted: 26th Nov 2009 21:00
doesnt "poly reducers" so to say, remove polys u wanna keep sometimes? XD


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SJHooks
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Posted: 26th Nov 2009 21:55
Thanks Sid, I'm testing it out, and so far it gives a messy result, but nothing a little practice with can't fix.

Typos, they can't live without me.
RUCCUS
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 01:22 Edited at: 27th Nov 2009 01:23
As far as I know the best technique is still to manually do it. There are algorithms out there that remove polygons from less-detailed areas first, maintaining as much detail in the poly-crowded areas for as long as possible, but I dont think you'll ever get as clean of a mesh out of it as you would by modelling it yourself.

I typically begin modelling a low poly version right from the beginning. It tends to force you to give the mesh good edge flow and lets you rough out the detail of the mesh quickly. Then I export this mesh and begin adding in more detail, sometimes in zBrush. The beauty of zBrush is you can work through each level of detail and even go back to lower LODs, make adjustments and have the adjustments applied through all of the LODs above it.

You can then typically use your high-poly mesh to render out a normal map for use on the low-poly mesh.

If you need convincing of just how powerful a good normal map is, check this out (its using a displacement map, but you'd get the exact same effect with a normal map except for the ability to notice the details on the polygons when viewed from their side).



As you can see, all of the details from the high-poly mesh have been baked into a normal map, and applied to the low poly mesh. Its hard to believe that model is under 300 polygons, but then again thats the beauty of normal maps.
SJHooks
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 03:27
With you .gif image, that doesn't look like 281 polys to me the sides actually bump off, but back to the point. For organic models like the example you provided above, I know that ussually a subsurf/subdivide can make the model look better, but when it comes to certain objects, it might not. What in blender I found out is that if you subdivide a few times, then subsurf, the overall appearance of the model looks normal, except it will round the edges, and that could be useful to many types of normal maps that are baked. I just prefer the poly reducing method because you can make models like this and then reduce for the baking process, but in retrospect you can make the basic model and then go through the process, but eitherway.

Typos, they can't live without me.
RUCCUS
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 03:50
Quote: "(its using a displacement map, but you'd get the exact same effect with a normal map except for the ability to notice the details on the polygons when viewed from their side)."
SJHooks
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 03:55
My fault, I lost my glasses around my desk a few days back and I thought I read "diffuse" instead of "displacement".

Typos, they can't live without me.
Ortu
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Posted: 28th Nov 2009 00:47
Quote: "he beauty of zBrush is you can work through each level of detail and even go back to lower LODs, make adjustments and have the adjustments applied through all of the LODs above it."


Blender can do this as well: next to the modifier stack there is a tab called "Multi Res" you can add/remove levels of detail and scroll through them as needed. any changes to low levels will propagate to all higher levels.

It's a much better method for making high poly meshes for normal baking than subsurf as it's all based of the initial low poly and you can just drop down to the bottom level resolution after your normal map is created and apply it.


farmkid4
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Posted: 28th Nov 2009 17:31 Edited at: 28th Nov 2009 17:32
Quote: "ah ok, i just finished the M3 Super 90 and its just under 2k poly "

just out of curiosity are you going to add a recoil pad on the back of the model? looks great by the way . wish i could model like that
Afrokid
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Posted: 28th Nov 2009 18:24
Quote: "just out of curiosity are you going to add a recoil pad on the back of the model?"


i forgot about that , i'll chuck it on tomorrow

Quote: "looks great by the way . wish i could model like that "


thanks, im realy happy with this model as ive only been modeling for about 6 months

i'll start modeling as soon as i can learn to make a good gun metal in photoshop.

~Afrokid

The End Is Nigh

And on the 7th day he had a carrot, it was good.
Asteric
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Posted: 28th Nov 2009 18:35
Quote: "i'll start modeling as soon as i can learn to make a good gun metal in photoshop.
"


Hehe, my time has come.

Afrokid
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Posted: 28th Nov 2009 18:49
Quote: "
Hehe, my time has come."


yay, ive been waiting since yesterday

~Afrokid

The End Is Nigh

And on the 7th day he had a carrot, it was good.

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