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Geek Culture / Do universities waist money?

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MSon
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 04:14 Edited at: 27th Nov 2009 04:42
There has been a lot of say in the UK recently that Tuition fees in universities may need to go up, im against this anyway as im considering going to uni for a degree, but this week i have learnt how little sense some universities have when it comes to money.

This week i have been temping at Salford university, they have me counting students in lectures, thats it, does it sound hard? Im only needed to work about 15 minutes every hour, from 9 till 5, but there paying me about £7.30 per hour, and there paying me between 9am and 6pm, for just 15 minutes of work per hour, all its doing is counting the students, but they hired 10 people to do this to split the work load, just 1 or 2 people could do the job so i have no idea why they hired 10 people for it...

I was speaking to a student there today who was worried about the possibility of an increase in the tuition fees, and i felt too guilty to say what i was doing there as a result.

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BearCDP
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 05:06
As a student going to an expensive university (albeit, American), I'd say yes, that sounds like a waste. Just you alone isn't a waste, but it makes me wonder what else they spend money on. Granted, a lot of universities give students jobs, and end up making the jobs easier than say working for a retail company so that the students are able to focus on their studies, so no one can blame you. However, I'm convinced there is a lot of money being wasted at some universities, especially larger ones like mine (~40,000 students), or the state school where I'm from (65,000+).

It's complicated, because you feel like there's a large waste, and then you find that your university has a lot of money for school clubs. This is where transparency would be helpful, but is sadly unlikely to happen.

MSon
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 05:12 Edited at: 27th Nov 2009 05:14
none of the people they hired are students, they went to a temp agency who there probably paying something like £10-£12 per person per hour for, Times 10 people.

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Keo C
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 06:01 Edited at: 27th Nov 2009 06:02
Quote: "Do universities waist money?"

Clearly enough isn't going to English classes.

Perhaps they could be a little wiser with their money, you make it sound like you are fairly overpaid for what you do.


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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 06:24
If it's not a private university (i.e. gov't funded), then yes they waste money. Government is never efficient - I see it every day when I'm at work.
Honestly, it sounds like a union job from what you've typed, which might as well be gov't.

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BearCDP
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 07:22 Edited at: 27th Nov 2009 07:23
It's just as bad at private universities too (I'm an undergrad at NYU). Our president's annual salary is $1.3 million from the university. The university also pays the med school dean/chief prof/whatever-his-title-is guy $2.8 mil. Maybe I'm just a liberal student, but I think it's a little excessive. I'd like to be able to report small things they waste lots of money on, but they never disclose anything about the budget.

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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 07:31
Quote: "It's just as bad at private universities too"


The difference is that a private university has to operate within the market, thus, is less apt to "waste" money. Without getting into politics, who are you (or I) to determine if someone working for a private entity is overpaid? Obviously the school has determined that the value of the services the individuals you have mentioned provide is in the millions. If you don't like it, then find another school. Or even better, educate yourself so you can get into their position and decline being paid that much.

Are celebrities overpaid? Perhaps football players? I'd say yes, but the market has determined that their services are worth quite a chunk of change - the market has spoken, so be it.

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BearCDP
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 08:22
Quote: "If you don't like it, then find another school."


That's the problem with universities, they can get away with this because in 4 years, most of the people would give a darn (the students) are out of there. And I know that at least for myself, I don't have the time or energy to care about it anymore since there's nothing I can do about whatever loans I took out to get my education (which is very worthwhile, I'm happy with the education and opportunities I get attending NYU) won't be affected by any change in the university after I've graduated.

I realized that I've made the jump from high salaries, to tuition, but that's because I see the salaries issue affecting the tuition of students, so that's something directly affecting me. My friends and I added up all our expenses of going to school, and reckoned that if that med school professor's salary were capped at $1 mil annually, then at least 10 students could attend for free. Of course, 10 is not much for a university as large as NYU, but how many professors are given these astronomical salaries?

Back to what I was on about before, the market then becomes just uninformed parents and high school seniors. Getting into a well-reputed college is a stressful task, and every starry-eyed, ambitious, and high-performing high school student and their parents assume a mentality of "We'll make it work," assuming that $200,000 for a degree from a highly-ranked school is the unwavering standard. By the time they realize that universities are in need of reform, they're already halfway through school and starting the path toward their own careers, and just settle into the mind set of "well, I'm here already, might as well finish what I started and get that good job".

NYU also has its own specific problems: it's an Ivy-league wannabe, and as such has a pitiful endowment-to-student ratio compared to other universities in the same tier. This will not change any time soon, because when an NYU graduate gets that phone call asking for donations, they instantly think "Who was donating when I was going to school and needed a scholarship, screw you!" And because NYU is always trying to expand, and they don't ever have a big enough endowment, they hike tuition every year. Actually, this year went up a smaller percentage than last year, but they compensated in this by adding smaller fees and increasing the cost of housing, which is actually sort of characteristic of a public school funnily enough.

So how can the market fairly decide prices for a private university when the market itself is so transient and uninformed? I'm not a bleeding-heart liberal calling for America to abandon the stock market and become 100% socialist or anything (I sometimes stand out at NYU for that reason), but something's gotta give on a few things, and I think that the cost of a university education--which includes the salary of professors as well as general oversight--is one of those things.

Realistically, I'll stop caring after I've graduated, so might as well talk it up now.

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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 08:33
To avoid the risk of getting this thread locked, message me on Yahoo if you want to keep this particular convo going. Besides, it seems that we are close to hijacking the thread, or might have already done so.

My addy is "ixeelectronics" on yahoo

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Lemonade
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 08:34
My friend goes to a college in California. He said that the school supplies alcohol for all their school parties. Sounds like a GREAT way to spend their money.
BearCDP
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 08:46
Sigh, would you mind if I take you up on that another evening? I apologize if this seems like a forum hit-and-run. I am interested in hearing your response, but I'm about to hit the sack.

Sigh
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 08:48
I don't mind, I'm about to head to bed myself. My "find another school" comment wasn't meant to be snobby, it seems like you may have took it that way from the length of your response (which brought up several good points BTW)

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Peter H
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 09:07
Quote: "Our president's annual salary is $1.3 million from the university. The university also pays the med school dean/chief prof/whatever-his-title-is guy $2.8 mil."

really? that's ridiculous!

My father works at a private University as a Dean and gets paid around 80k. Which is plenty.

The school charges 10k a semester for tuition and 4k for room and board. But from talking to my Dad i learned that most of their income DOESN'T come from students. Sure they use the money, but it's less than half of their income (the rest is research grants and donations i think).

I think it varies from university to university. Some waste more than others.

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Fallout
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 10:41
It'll be different for each university. They are businesses first. If they are well managed, money will be better spent.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 11:47 Edited at: 27th Nov 2009 11:50
Quote: "Do universities waist money?"


Yes! Definitely! Our university just spent a huge sum of money on making it look pretty! Before it looked like a bunch of council flats and now it looks very sleek. I'm thinking, there's a lot of things inside of the University that need to be sorted...people don't go to a University because it looks pretty, I mean it wasn't that what attracted me to the University, no, it's how well people do, it's their ranking, it's their quality of teaching. Luckily the people they've got teaching my course are fantastic, but courses like English are terrible and some departments need better funding and the way in which the University works is just awful. I think the University Student network called UDO needs replacing, because it is an awful system.

But they also wasted money on 'UniMail', an email service for the students to use - okay they've always had an email system, but now it just means any emails your tutor sends do not go to your personal email, but instead your UniMail account...which people check less frequently and it's a less efficient system and not everybody is capable of accessing it...it's a system connected to UDO, which is crap. However, I gave my personal tutor my personal email address...and added him on Facebook so it means we don't have to use the University's stupid system. It makes booking tutorials and passing on info a lot more convenient.

They also need to hire better staff in things like the English department and raise the standard in some areas, they've only just introduced an ethics system for Independent Studies, where people have to fill in an ethics form to make sure that their independent study is ethical - our course (Creative Writing) has approached ethics for years and we don't really need an ethics form - as ethics was a major part of the module that lead up to our IS last year, but policy required that we filled one. (Luckily our module leader decided to join the ethics committee and gave us a work around...that is to just write 'see project proposal' meaning wasting paper) but my friend who studies English didn't have that work around and reading through it, all he needed to do was essentially re-write his project proposal into the form...as the rest of the form didn't apply, so for him...it was useless and completely pointless, as his research is entirely through literature and not any participants or anything scientific.

He also last year had the infamous youtube teacher who used a youtube video as a reference in one of their essay questions, it was made by 13 year old girl who is in love with romantic films and she put a load of images together from different Wuthering Heights films to music...essentially they had to analyse the book in comparison to the clip. My friend, who loved the book, argued that the YouTube video was completely irrelevant as it barely represented the book (like one of the old films it only focuses on the romance, which is only half of the book - the second half is very dark). He got a lower grade because his knowledge of the book was fantastic, but he didn't talk about the images or the music in the video enough. Surely that's the point in an English literature essay? To know the book? It's not a media degree, you're not analysing how a director might present something on screen.

My university seems to have a policy of: "If it works, fix it. If it doesn't work, then ignore it." It's a shame, because the tutors and module leaders on my course are fantastic...and I can kind of see them wanting to rant about the University themselves at times, but obviously they're not allowed. I could see my professor finding the new 'ethics form' policy being absolutely ridiculous, that's why he joined the committee.



Sorry for the rant there.

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 12:20 Edited at: 27th Nov 2009 12:55
Quote: "University Student network"


I don't think there's an educational institution on the planet that has a good computer network. The Windows machines took about fifteen minutes to log in at high school, at college the Macs log in instantly and then beachball infinitely. Probably because 300 machines are Spotlight indexing the same drives... I think I preferred the former; a wait, but at least you could do some work!

But yeah, universities waste a bucketload of cash. There isn't a board of directors I've seen (and I live with one such man) that isn't corrupt in one way or another, going with the bidder that will pay THEM the most rather than lowest bidder or the best.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 12:52 Edited at: 27th Nov 2009 13:03
Well it's the system by which information can be given to students, for lecturers to upload sources, notes, handbooks, time tables etc. for a start it's not very user friendly and as a result the university is having to pay so that they can train students who are confused by the system, lecturers have to be trained too. I'm thinking spending money on something more innovative will be more sensible, it could mean saving some money in the long run and it'd keep the students happy. It really ought not take much to replace it, surely? The large sums of cash they're spending on making the University look pretty could mean improvements in many departments...hey if you can improve a student's experience, you might help them improve their grades and guess what? It means the Uni moves higher in the league table, meaning better funding and a better reputation. It makes little sense to me. In the last couple of years the Uni has been declining on the league table and I put it down to certain decisions they've been making.

It all goes back to what I said - fix what does need fixing and ignore what needs fixing.

Fallout
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 13:07 Edited at: 27th Nov 2009 13:08
I think in the example of giving the uni a face lift, it's a good way to spend money. Ok, for students already there, it seems pointless. Why should the uni care about your opinion? They already have you locked in for the duration of degree. For prospective students, no matter how much they should be going on purely academic merit, they will be swayed by the appearance of the campus. Modern looking unis give a feel of being at the cutting edge, and improve the overall feeling of the uni.

So Mr Sep, I see where you're coming from, but I think what your uni has done actually make good business sense. As I said before, they are a business first, and education establishment second. Tony Blair made sure of that by making the mistake of sending every retard in the country into uni.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 13:34
Well...I can see that argument, but when I was looking for Unis and this was the case for other people applying, it wasn't how the University 'looked' that effected people's decisions, I mean if appearance was important, I might have chosen Anglia Ruskin instead. Whilst it leaves a good impression, it isn't an important factor in the decision making process. If the University worked to get higher in the league tables then I can see that being more of an advantage, right? To do that you'd surely focus on getting your current students good grades. But I suppose the 50% thing Tony Blair worked towards is perhaps where University has become less about education. Perhaps other students were far more superficial in their choice that I was - "ooh look, pretty building, shiny!"

Funnily enough, my friend was told off by a tutor for considering doing vocational education in Gym training, he decided that earning an English degree wasn't for him and that he was suckered in by the "you must have a degree" attitude the schools were having. He wanted to do it alongside his degree - so he can finish what he started and also work towards the career he wants. It seems he was looked down upon for it. Maybe that's an example where the 50% target is a problem. I'm at Uni, because my career choice would benefit from it.

Fallout
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 15:02
Yes. It's expected that you go to uni. It's ridiculous. You're considered one of the thick people if you don't have a degree. So everyone feels like they have to aspire to go to uni, and spend 3-5 years earning crappy degrees to make them more employable. They do laughable subjects like Golf Management (yes, a guy I lived with actually did that), and various media and business degrees.

While they may learn valuable stuff at uni, I can't believe they wouldn't gain more skills and knowledge working for the same 3 years actually in the industry. Meanwhile they would contribute to society by paying taxes and also they would avoid massive personal debt.

So I think things like your uni face lift are a side effect of this. Simple fact is, IMO at least, the only courses that are worth anything are those that teach you skills and techniques that aren't viable to pick up on the job. Software Engineering is a good example, since it's not viable to train someone to program on the job, as they'll be useless for 6 months (having said that, big companies like IBM will do that, and do take on apprentices without degrees).

Ahh well. I'm through the system now. I'm glad we have mahoosive top up fees. Hopefully it'll make people think twice about going to uni to study a BA in Businessmans Shirt Ironing, or Chicken Farming.

MSon
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 19:18 Edited at: 27th Nov 2009 19:19
Quote: "Our university just spent a huge sum of money on making it look pretty! Before it looked like a bunch of council flats and now it looks very sleek. I'm thinking, there's a lot of things inside of the University that need to be sorted...people don't go to a University because it looks pretty,"


Salford Uni has had quite a few face lifts, whereas i've been told manchester uni looks old ad falling apart in some places, I don't know if i will definitely be going to uni yet, it depends on what type of funding help is there, but if i do go, then ill be picking based on the name, I live near both 'Salford University' and 'Manchester University', Regardless to what the Uni looks like from the outside, Manchester Uni has a better and more well known name, so that would be my first choice as it would look better on my cv.

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lazerus
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 19:26
I go for whoever offers the best course, it could look like a slum, but as long as they had all the proper equipment for me to get my degree, i really couldnt care.

Its like the Royale hosipal in liverpool, the place looks abandoned bar the hundreds of people, then when you go inside, it looks like startrek is hiding in it. Ill look closer next time since im sure i seen spok =_='

MSon
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Posted: 27th Nov 2009 19:34 Edited at: 27th Nov 2009 19:37
i know similey hospitals, trafford hospital looks like new, all clean and tidy, i think the word is "Designer", but theres another hospital i was sent to last time i was sent there, (It was withington or Withingshaw hospital), looked manky and in desperate need of help, but it had must better doctors, and the treatment i got there was much better than at trafford hospital.

I spoke to one of the doctors there who was taking the mick of trafford general as they basicley spent all there money on visual appearance, but gave a lesser service.

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demons breath
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Posted: 28th Nov 2009 01:20
@Mson - I wouldn't go to somewhere near me personally. One of the main deciding factors in my choice of uni is making sure it wasn't close enough to see my family more than once a term. I know some people who chose places near them, but generally as a rule they seem to spend every weekend going back to see their family, instead of getting their drink on/socialising like they really should be.

El Goorf
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Posted: 28th Nov 2009 01:59
i'd forget about uni unless you decide you really need the degree (as in, an employer says specifically you need one to work for them, and you really want to work for them. a kickass portfolio will usually do the trick, and is easier to build up than get a degree, which just takes up loads of time spent not really learning anything.

Im in my final year now and am really dissapointed with what i've learnt. the course has bored me so much that i practically lost all interest in programming now, and half the jobs i'd like to do now dont even need a degree, im just finishing what i started and geting the hell away from academia.

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David R
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Posted: 28th Nov 2009 02:13 Edited at: 28th Nov 2009 02:16
Quote: "i'd forget about uni unless you decide you really need the degree (as in, an employer says specifically you need one to work for them, and you really want to work for them. "

Quote: "nd half the jobs i'd like to do now dont even need a degree"


Meh, I haven't seen any software job with requirements other than degree-level CS etc. so regardless of whether I learn anything or not, being here is worthwhile (besides, I am learning tons any way - mainly on the maths side w/ graph theory etc.)

Quote: "which just takes up loads of time spent not really learning anything"


I dunno about that.. some of the contact time is a waste (e.g. some practicals suck in a teaching capacity) but personally I'm building up knowledge + portfolio in between contact time anyhow. Just ordered a shed load of books so I can learn JDBC, Obj-C/Coca and OpenGL

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Chris K
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Posted: 28th Nov 2009 17:47
Quote: "If it's not a private university (i.e. gov't funded), then yes they waste money."


Any data to back that up? It seems like the top public unis (Cal, Cambridge, Toyko, Kanpur, Lomonosov etc) are just as good or better than the private ones, but spend less money.

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Sigh
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Posted: 29th Nov 2009 22:28
Quote: "Any data to back that up? It seems like the top public unis (Cal, Cambridge, Toyko, Kanpur, Lomonosov etc) are just as good or better than the private ones, but spend less money."


Honestly, I don't think you could find data to back either of our claims up. Universities exist for one purpose (as it relates to students) - to produce a product - an educated person who can enter the workforce and give their employer the most bang for their buck. This is where the uncertainty exists as the product quality is subjective for the most part, not objective.

What I base my assumption on is logic and observation.
1) What is the total cost of putting someone though a public school, including any taxes used to give out grants, support the school, etc? Compare this with the total cost of putting someone through a private school (including taxes for grants, etc). They may very well be close to the same.
2) A private entity *doesn't* have the ability to go and ask the government for more funds if it finds itself needing more. This leads it to use it's available funds more efficiently. Even if it relies partly on private charities, there is still a limited pool of capital to draw from. A public entity on the other hand, does have the government (tax payer) to fall back on, and is not necessarily forced to attain the highest return for every dollar invested in it. The pool of capital for a public entity is, for all intents, unlimited. A government may raise taxes, print money, issue bonds, obtain public credit, etc. Of course, this always leads to problems for said government in the long term, but that's a discussion not allowed on these forums I'm sure.

There will always be waste to some extent, my point is that a private university will most likely not be apt to waste as much.

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Jeku
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Posted: 29th Nov 2009 23:29 Edited at: 29th Nov 2009 23:30
Quote: "A private entity *doesn't* have the ability to go and ask the government for more funds if it finds itself needing more."


Wasn't the US stimulus package going to private companies that had requested bailouts? Or was that just a special case.


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Posted: 29th Nov 2009 23:58 Edited at: 29th Nov 2009 23:59
Quote: "Wasn't the US stimulus package going to private companies that had requested bailouts?"


That's why I put "doesn't" between the asterisks. But yes, it was a special case. For the most part, private entities must do without gov't funding. You do have special cases such as the Bailoutpallooza, grants to start small businesses, etc.
The Bailoutpallooza was meant for businesses which were failing due to an economy where the movement of capital had slowed drastically (or in the case of GM for example, the market had decided it didn't want products from GM's auto division)
But again, we are getting into waters where the thread might get locked or mods might start handing out modslaps - so I will say this, just because a specific course of action is taken doesn't mean said action was correct or proper.

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Chris K
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 14:01
Sigh, I think you have confused "publicly owned" with "government run" (or perhaps they aren't different things in your mind).

Quote: "A public entity on the other hand, does have the government (tax payer) to fall back on, and is not necessarily forced to attain the highest return for every dollar invested in it."


This is completely backwards. Stuff that is publicly owned is the stuff that has the pressure to spend money wisely. If the head of Harvard wants to build a gold statue of himself in the middle of a lawn (or more realistically, give huge bonuses to a few top people) then they can totally do that, if they tried doing that at Cambridge then we would have a very real chance of stopping it and getting the money spent directly on education.

We would of course need significant public support.

The difference is Cambridge is publically owned so is answerable to the public, and Harvard is privately owned so is answerable to it's owners.

---

A not-so-ridiculous example would be if a multi-billionaire Saudi Arabian wanted their son - and only their son - to be educated by the top professors. They pay $1,000,000,000 and no one else gets to be taught by the best teachers. Obviously this would make finacial sense for Harvard, and so "the market approves of it" (or whatever sentience you want to give "the market"), but it is clearly not the fairest or most efficient (in terms of quality of Harvard grads) solution.

---

I wish more people realised it is not a black/white choice between Marx and Hayek, and sometimes different solutions work best in different situations.

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Sigh
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 18:12 Edited at: 30th Nov 2009 18:20
Quote: "I think you have confused "publicly owned" with "government run""

No, I'm not confusing the two, they are two different things. However there is one thing to consider. Here in the States, any entity that is given funding by the federal government, either through a contract to provide a product\service or through outright funding, then opens itself to federal regulation. This includes such things as break times, working hours, and so on that end up making a job take longer or become more expensive.

Quote: "Stuff that is publicly owned is the stuff that has the pressure to spend money wisely."

If this is the case then why do publicly funded programs almost always end up costing the tax payer more than government said they would? Why do privately funded programs usually come in at least on budget and sometimes earlier than promised? Speaking from experience in working for government, if a public or private entity is given public money, the entity will milk it for as much money as they can, while ensuring they only do the minimum required in order to obtain said money. With that said, the private entity will usually use the money more wisely because it wants to keep the most profit for itself, but there is still waste in that there was more funding given than was required. Give me one example of a publicly funded program which used its funding wisely and with minimum waste.

Quote: "If the head of Harvard wants to build a gold statue of himself in the middle of a lawn (or more realistically, give huge bonuses to a few top people) then they can totally do that"

The gold statue is just ridiculous, how many private companies do you see with such crap? Compare that with the opulence you see in government and the waste you see in public programs. As for the huge bonuses, a company gets what it pays for. Whether the recipient of bonuses deserves them based on their performance is up to what their contract says, and contract details are not often reported in mainstream news outlets - both left-leaning and right-leaning. Most people are too lazy to find this information out for themselves, or are happy to just sit and complain about things but won't go research the causes of the things they constantly complain about.

Quote: "if they tried doing that at Cambridge then we would have a very real chance of stopping it and getting the money spent directly on education."

Would you have a real chance of stopping it? Just how many people do you know that follow such things, let alone care enough (or aren't lazy), to write their people in government or what-have-you. For example, I'm as involved as I can get in politics (can't get too involved being in the military) but I really don't care about what's happening in my town's public schools even though I pay a hefty property tax to support the schools. I don't have kids (and wouldn't put them in a public school anyway); there are more pressing issues to fight over; and there are several other reasons not to care at this point in time. My neighbors, who have kids and also pay property tax, don't keep track of what's going on with the school's finances either. There may be some parents who track such things, but most I've met from all backgrounds don't.

Quote: "They pay $1,000,000,000 and no one else gets to be taught by the best teachers. Obviously this would make finacial sense for Harvard, and so "the market approves of it" (or whatever sentience you want to give "the market"), but it is clearly not the fairest or most efficient (in terms of quality of Harvard grads) solution."

So what? Harvard gets $1,000,000,000 and some guy gets a supposed top-notch education. What do you think Harvard is going to do with all that money? Eat it for breakfast? It is in the school's interest to invest a good portion of the money back into the school. As for "fairness", I'm not going to get deep into that on these forums, but who are you or I to determine what is "fair" in a private organization?

Quote: "I wish more people realised it is not a black/white choice between Marx and Hayek"

It is indeed a black-and-white choice, but again not for these forums. You've got my yahoo username a few posts back if you want to continue.

Anyway, I'm going to self-moderate and end the large amount of political talk here so as not to anger the mods. I've got to get back to my gov't job and stop wasting money sitting here being unproductive. Oh, wait, it's time for lunch.

Keep your Hope & Change to yourself, I choose Liberty! Stop by for a chat! [IXE]Nateholio on irc.maxgaming.net:6667 #GarageGames
YavinB
15
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Joined: 25th Sep 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posted: 30th Nov 2009 18:26
Quote: "Do universities waist money?"


It wouldn't be "Waist" it would be waste.

If it involves money I'm in. (only if it Benefits me)
David R
21
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Joined: 9th Sep 2003
Location: 3.14
Posted: 30th Nov 2009 21:26 Edited at: 30th Nov 2009 21:32
Quote: "Would you have a real chance of stopping it? "


Err... yes? Maybe public things over in the US suck, but over here most public institutions have to publish information on what they plan to do / they tell the public prior to doing it. You don't need to investigate or even follow them in order to find out about what they're doing with the money - for example, a local (non-private) secondary school near here recently just published a big article on its planned extensions, additional staff and the costs of it all. It ends up in the newspapers, the school's site, the school's newsletter etc. Most (if not all) publicly run institutions will intentionally go out of their way to inform the public of changes and improvements - and since the info is normally widespread very quickly, it also increases the 'spectrum' of people to react / complain / petition etc.

Quite often complaints will filter through local councils (which more often than not control all public organisations in the area)

09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Chris K
21
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Joined: 7th Oct 2003
Location: Lake Hylia
Posted: 1st Dec 2009 16:25
Quote: "It is indeed a black-and-white choice"


Sorry, I didn't realise you were an idiot.
My mistake...

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Sigh
19
Years of Service
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Joined: 26th Dec 2005
Location: The Big 80s
Posted: 1st Dec 2009 20:42 Edited at: 1st Dec 2009 20:43
Quote: "Sorry, I didn't realise you were an idiot."


Window-licker actually, get it right.

Anyway, I'm done with the thread as is seems close to getting a mod-slap.

Keep your Hope & Change to yourself, I choose Liberty! Stop by for a chat! [IXE]Nateholio on irc.maxgaming.net:6667 #GarageGames

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