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3 Dimensional Chat / Question about some sort of maps.

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Isocadia
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Posted: 29th Nov 2009 19:24 Edited at: 29th Nov 2009 19:26
Well, basicly, my questions are related to displacement/normal/bump maps. Because why would you use a bump/normal map, if you can also use a displacement map, which from what i've seen adds way better detail that normal/bump maps. Like here:



And is this more cpu demanding than a normal/bump map?

Isocadia
Aaagreen
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Posted: 29th Nov 2009 19:36
Well being as it dynamically deforms the mesh, I presume it is. All bump maps do is create the illusion that it's displaced, but that illusion is shattered when viewed from the side.

Jeku always gets drunk and tries to Moderate the ocean. Tirelessly slapping the waves as they roll in.
Isocadia
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Posted: 29th Nov 2009 20:25
Well, I guess i misformulated my question. So I will try to make it more clear:

1. Why do a lot of people always use normal/bump maps who only create illusions, instead of displacement maps which deform the mesh?

2. Is a displacement map more cpu demanding than a normal/bump map ( like is your FPS rate higher with 50 normal maps than displacement maps, or is it equall? )
Asteric
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Posted: 29th Nov 2009 20:28
Im certain that Disp maps take a lot more mem to render and is qite greedy on the CPU.

Kravenwolf
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Posted: 29th Nov 2009 20:35
Quote: "Displacement mapping is an alternative computer graphics technique in contrast to bump mapping, normal mapping, and parallax mapping, using a (procedural-) texture- or height map to cause an effect where the actual geometric position of points over the textured surface are displaced, often along the local surface normal, according to the value the texture function evaluates to at each point on the surface. It gives surfaces a great sense of depth and detail, permitting in particular self-occlusion, self-shadowing and silhouettes; on the other hand, it is the most costly of this class of techniques owing to the large amount of additional geometry."

Source: Wikipedia


Kravenwolf

Isocadia
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Posted: 30th Nov 2009 16:18
So basicly, I should use normal maps where possible and use the least amount of displacement maps possible.

Isocadia
SJHooks
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Posted: 1st Dec 2009 05:13
Or not at all. You could just add any major geometry that can't be replaced by normal or bump maps (especially from a side view). And maybe (MAYBE, I'm no expert on them) you should take a look into paralax mapping, they create an even stronger illusion:
Cheers

Typos, they can't live without me.
RUCCUS
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Posted: 1st Dec 2009 13:30 Edited at: 1st Dec 2009 13:34
Agreed. Normal maps can create the exact same effect as displacement maps if you're viewing the surfaces relatively head on. Obviously from the side the detail will be lost as there is no actual geometry being added, but 9 times out of 10 this isn't noticable. Any details that you would greatly notice as being flat when viewed from the side should probably be modelled. As a rule, if the width / height of the detail you're trying to add is a lot less than the depth of the detail you're trying to add, you're most likely better off modelling it into the geometry, otherwise a normal map will suffice. For example, all of those grooves that get put on the side of weapons aren't very deep, their width and height is typically greater than their depth, so a normal map for these details would be perfect. In comparison, a notched-out button on the side of a weapon will most likely have roughly the same depth as it's diameter, and thus will probably be easy to notice if it's not physically modelled into the mesh.

Of course as I said you need to consider how these details will be viewed. Bricks for example, (like in the picture posted above), will typically never be viewed from a 90 degree angle, and so normal mapping (or parallax mapping if you can pull it off like in the picture) will work wonders. The same would be true if you had one of the notched out buttons I described above coming out of the back of the gun. This button will probably never be viewed from the side as it's going to face the user's eyes when they're holding it, and so a normal map would be fine.

Displacement maps just aren't designed for use in games, as they essentially are adding more physical detail to render, just in a different manner than actually modelling the detail in 3D.

One of the biggest benefits for displacement maps is in terms of animation. They allow you to work with a very low-poly mesh while animating (when you're animating with a lot of polygons, things can slow down and make the entire process a hassle with loading times, especially with full blown scenes and multiple characters), and then render a high-quality video with the disp. maps applied. They also speed up the design process, as less time is spent on working out the mesh flow of a model and making sure edge loops are working properly / normals aren't acting strangely. All of the major modelling is essentially done in photoshop.
Dia
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Posted: 1st Dec 2009 15:36
Also remember that (in general) your meshes in-game will be moving, hopefully at 60fps or better

while motion is cool because hides a multitude of sins, it also hides a lot of the fine detail that you spend aaaaages putting together
Isocadia
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Posted: 1st Dec 2009 17:07
Well, what I learned from all this, is that normal mapping/parralax mapping can almost do the same as displacement maps. Only not very good from sides and that displacement mapping is not made for games. So I will use normal maps for most of my models and only use displacement maps or parralax maps for the most important characters.

Well, thanks for you help.

Isocadia
RUCCUS
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Posted: 1st Dec 2009 18:18
Again, you really shouldn't be using disp. maps in games at all.
Isocadia
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Posted: 1st Dec 2009 19:11
K, then I will just forget that entire kind of map, just gonna concentrate on learning normal mapping and maybe paralex mapping.

Isocadia
SJHooks
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2009 01:29 Edited at: 2nd Dec 2009 01:31
Displacement mapping, I suppose, is more important to movies, because this way the basic view of the model is all the animators have to work with, compared to the millions of polys that could come from the original high poly model, as well as lagging the 3D animation program out due to the high amount of polys, as well as textures. Paralax mapping is commonly used in types of textures like on the one above. Here's another example: animated water in games. You could use an animated normal map or paralax map, along with programming the game to position some foamy bubbles whereever the player/object lands, to give it a good enough look (as well as the waves). Then there's another way, but it is a poly killer. You could try making you water using a matrix (and in case you don't know, which you probably do know, a matrix is pretty much a flat 3D grid of polys) that you can program to act like water. This, when given a side view, works wonders. Evolved's water shader is a perfect example of a poly saving water shader:
I must say, Evolved has quite a gift for these types of shaders, he's made a good collection, and these shaders are in fact very useful. Also, a paralax map works great with lighting. I recommend using normal maps for details that aren't that great in depth, wheras a paralax map works better with larger object illusions and lighting. Take a look at this (Evolved's Paralax mapping shader:
As you can see, in the front view, it looks completely 3D, but when you look at it from the side, this effect is pretty much ruined (the effect is ruined even more when paralax mapping on objects with a flat appearance). Hoped we helped, cheers.

Typos, they can't live without me.
Isocadia
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2009 16:43
Well, I already tried looking at evolved's shaders, but I seem to just be able to find DBpro version, and since I'm using GDK they don't help me. But I think this tread may be locked, got my answer on what kind of maps to use and which maps not to use.

Isocadia

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