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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / A program I wrote doesn't use any graphics, will the exe still require dx9.0b to run?

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Toothpick
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 19:39
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/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\
That's all I would like to know, not too much of a big deal but I'd like to let people know before thay download.

Every one should have dx9.0b by now anyway.

thx

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 19:46 Edited at: 11th Sep 2003 19:47
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I think so.

Quote: "Every one should have dx9.0b by now anyway"

True, but dont forget, there are a few Luddites out there...


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Toothpick
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 20:14
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"Luddites"

Next your going to tell me that some people still use windows95...



Ps : everyone should get over to

http://www.microsoft.com/security/

to get a critical patch, no this is not blaster worm.
Its something new.

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OzBot
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 20:23 Edited at: 11th Sep 2003 20:29
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OzBot
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 20:26 Edited at: 11th Sep 2003 20:29
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..
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David T
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 22:47 Edited at: 11th Sep 2003 22:47
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Quote: "there are a few Luddites out there..."


I have locked up a friend's PC twice by giving a dbp app... turned out he had DX 7 and wouldn't upgrade.

c:/dos
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run dos run
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Easily Confused
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 22:57
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Hence the saying: "upgrade or die"

Programming anything is an art, and you can't rush art.
Unless your name is Bob Ross, then you can do it in thirty minutes.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 23:49
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I just dont know why people are afraid of DX9...


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Rob K
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Posted: 12th Sep 2003 02:19
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Quote: "Next your going to tell me that some people still use windows95..."


And they DEFINATELY won't be running DBP apps


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heartbone
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Posted: 12th Sep 2003 06:00
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Toothpick let me be the first to break the news to you,
ther are some people who are still using Windows® 95.

And this Luddite has no plans to install DX9 on any of my 4 computers anytime soon.

Obviously none of you intend to sell anything that you make with DBP,
else you would also be concerned about the unconditional DX9 requirement.

David89's friend's attitide is not unique. I'd almost say it is the MAJORITY consensus. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This is especially true when using Windows®.

I will not put DX9 on my computer to play any game or program unless it was a must have KILLER APP.

Maybe in a year or so things will be different, but for now DX8 is the highest level that should be a REQUIREMENT if you actually plan to sell anything in today's market.

From reading your commennts I know that some of you can't understand this, and you look down on us Luddites. But it's plain old common business sense.

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The more you know, the more you see.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 12th Sep 2003 07:00
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Quote: "game or program unless it was a must have KILLER APP"


Half-Life 2

Enough said.

If that's not a killer app that requires DX9 for ultimate visual effects, I don't know what is. (Not forgetting Doom3 and lots of other games coming out (the awesome Gunmetal for example)).

Cheers,

Rich

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Sep 2003 07:23
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Quote: "A program I wrote doesn't use any graphics, will the exe still require dx9.0b to run?"


unfortunately ... yes
i found this out trying to upgrade to update5 without installing DirectX9 on my system first.

although it doesn't require DirectX9.02 it does require 9.x
i would've thought that the routines for the DirectX Layer would only be called and initilised when 3D or 2D Graphical features are used, leaving standard text features for you. Unfortunately this isn't the case... Even the text requires the Dx layer, and as the text is part of the Core - it initilises it.

Sometimes i do often think of how much simpler it would be to write myself a compiler in DarkBASIC Pro, especially considering i still don't know howto export data from C++ into a file ... which can be frustrating.

DBP its simple, setup a basic array for the date using an UDT for the structure - copy it to a memblock, export the memblock as a file.
Nothing could be simpler
in C++ i think i'm suppose to use that cout thing, but how exactly baffles me.
should be a console thing in DBP, ya know make it a little more flexible on what it exports. But i doubt we'll see that.

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CloseToPerfect
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Posted: 12th Sep 2003 07:27
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Quote: "ya know make it a little more flexible on what it exports. But i doubt we'll see that."

Na, you'll never see it.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Sep 2003 07:29
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Quote: "of other games coming out (the awesome Gunmetal for example)"


i have that game... looks stunning for an arcade title - but personally i think its a true console game, not suitable for the PC at all.
So many controls for such little action, it seems like a nice control set and the action at first seems quake-y but when you get into it the controls are just far too far apart for the heat of the action.
Ended up using my Aftershock pad - but then again its like Expendable, a nice graphical game ... falls short on everything else.

Though being able to swap between a tank, giant mecha and jet is pretty cool

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Toothpick
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Posted: 12th Sep 2003 17:38
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Thx people
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 12th Sep 2003 18:54 Edited at: 12th Sep 2003 18:55
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Quote: "concerned about the unconditional DX9 requirement"

Not at all - DX9 has been out a while now, and I would certainly expect the user who will be playing my games (when I eventually get around to do one again) to have DX9 - if not, then tough.

Dont forget, if you've got DX9, you will also get DX8,7,5 and 3 I believe as well. Whilst its been said that DX8 (in DX9) has been slightly changed, I think it was only to fix a few problems.


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Rob K
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Posted: 12th Sep 2003 21:20
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Quote: "Not forgetting Doom3 "


Doom 3 uses OpenGL.


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heartbone
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Posted: 13th Sep 2003 00:19 Edited at: 13th Sep 2003 00:21
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Richard, Half-Life 2 Does not REQUIRE DX9. It can take advantage of it though for those "utlimate visual effects" as you put it.

From: http://www.ultimate-gamer.com/halflife2/hl2.htm
"The minimum system specs are currently targeted at a 700 MHz PC with 128 MB RAM and a DX6-level video card TNT2 etc, meaning you won't need a supercomputer to run Half-Life 2."

Those guys have good business sense.

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The more you know, the more you see.
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Rob K
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Posted: 13th Sep 2003 03:04 Edited at: 13th Sep 2003 03:05
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Heartbone, If you say "This will require a major system upgrade..." blah blah on your product page you aren't going to shift a single copy.

Turn that into "Powerful 3D engine uses DX9 for next gen. graphics", then you're in the money.

There is no such thing as a problem, only an opportunity.

If it really is as big a problem as you make out, then time-warp over to http://www.blitzbasic.co.nz and read all the threads crying out for a DX9 upgrade

Quote: "Those guys have good business sense."


DarkBASIC Pro requires DX9 to run, and do I hear complaints from TGC about them not shifting copies as a result of this? Erm.. nope.


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Richard Davey
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Posted: 13th Sep 2003 18:52
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Quote: "Half-Life 2 Does not REQUIRE DX9."


I never said it required it, I said if you want to see the game the way the designers intended it, you'll need it. And that's fact. See the recently released HL2 DX9 movie for evidence.

Cheers,

Rich

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Your brain's just like any other appliance: it works better if you plug it in...
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Dreamora
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Posted: 13th Sep 2003 19:11
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I don't understand where your problems are ... Only because you have DX9 on the system it isn't needed that you have a overpower graphicsadapter since it's enough to have a compatible driver and I think this shouldn't be any problem, should it?
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Fallout
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Posted: 13th Sep 2003 20:39
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I'm sitting on the fence on this one. There's ample driver upgrades that cause things to get worse or even fail. It's a common misconception that a newer driver is always for the best for everyone. Quite often there's a large number of people who suffer more problems from new drivers/software - be it the newest detonator FXs, the newest direct x, or the newest windows service pack.

I agree with the "if it aint broke, dont fix it" theory, but at the same time, I also agree with keeping up with the times, and there's a reason why DX9 is DX9 and not DX8.2 - because it's not just a patch to fix things - it's a whole load more goodies.

So I understand sticking with 8.1. I must admit, I felt my PC was more stable with 8.1. Its been less reliable sinse I updated my detonators and went with dx9.0b, but I kinda feel obligated to keep everything uptodate to make sure nobody can say "well, that aint working cos you haven't got the newest drivers".

Insiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 13th Sep 2003 22:19
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I'm struggling to understand why upgrading to DX9 would cause any kind of system instability at all, it's just an API. I can see it might cause troubles with certain games, but not on a system level - it's not like it replaced your HAL or anything. Same goes for video card drivers. I can see how newer drivers might break older games that used to work, but yet again whole system instability? I'm not so sure, they're not that crucial to Windows actually operating.

I think "updating always = instability" is born from lots of urban myth created by instable systems in the first instance. Not all granted, but certainly a lot.

Cheers,

Rich

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Jedive
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Posted: 13th Sep 2003 23:19
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Quote: "If it really is as big a problem as you make out, then time-warp over to http://www.blitzbasic.co.nz and read all the threads crying out for a DX9 upgrade"
Don't want to talk about any other product in this forums, but i just want to tell you that you're not right. Most of ppl on that community will never use the DX9 version of that product, because they'be been selling their games on the shareware market, and they know that DX7 is more suitable for that market than DX9.

And about DBPro, I prefer it this way... imagine that all the game programming languages get stuck in DX7 because of the shareware market... there wouldn't be enough variety. This kind of products cannot be THE APPROPIATE for all purposes. DBPro is technically on the leading edge. You won't probably sell you DBPro game to someone stuck in a 350Mhz-Voodoo3 computer, but DBPro is oriented to another market I think.

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heartbone
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Posted: 14th Sep 2003 08:30
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I'm certanly not alleging that DX9 will cause system instability.

I am alleging the DX9 requirement limits the number of users that can (or will) try a DBP app compiled with patch 5.

To me that is a big negative. Obviously you don't agree, so there it stands. Peace.

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DMXtra
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Posted: 14th Sep 2003 14:20
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If the people that you give your game to, won't upgrade to a newer version of DirectX greater than 7, then they probably arn't into games on the PC anyway. Thus that's not your audience for gaming anyway.

Its pretty much a given that if you want to play the latest games like Half Life 2 and the new Tomb Raider games at their best you will need to upgrade to the latest version of DX.

Also with the latest video cards from ATI and Nvidia at less than 100 dollars, in some cases DX 9 video cards for only 60 or 70 US dollars and DX 9 a free download only 8 megabytes for WinXP (the size of two mp3 files).

So there really are no excuses. If they don't want to upgrade, they probably don't play games on the PC, but consoles anyway and if you are writing edutainment, you should really just consider something like visual basic to do that.

I don't know how much of a base you are going to get anyway, I look at other communties of a DX 7 product and nobody is buying anything.

So if a product thats been out for two years with DX 7 and works with Windows 95, nobody has made hardly any money off of any games, than that pretty much says it all.

More isn't always better, if they are never going to buy your game in the first place and just play Windows solitare and buy their kids a PS2 or Xbox which never play on their old outdated computer anyway.

My dad has a Windows 98 machine with a TNT2 that never has played a video came in his life and never cares to install one. His main goal is to do finances and do research on his book on his computer, yet according to these people on here, they just lost a sale.

See what I mean?

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 14th Sep 2003 15:18
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I think the majority of casual PC gamers would not download a newer version of DirectX to play a game. BUT any commercial game that requires direct X contains the relevant version on its CD anyway, and the installation process will usually auto detect and upgrade for you

Quikly Studio Pro. Soon. Honest.
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Rob K
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Posted: 14th Sep 2003 15:21
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What a lot of people seem to forget is that when you install DX9, the DX8 and DX7 APIs remain there, they are not removed. That is why DX7 games will happily run on systems with DX9 installed. Occassionally there are bugfixes in older APIs but that is usually all.


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 14th Sep 2003 15:25
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I said that before Rob...


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Jedive
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Posted: 14th Sep 2003 16:49
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Quote: "So if a product thats been out for two years with DX 7 and works with Windows 95, nobody has made hardly any money off of any games, than that pretty much says it all."
Nobody? I know a lot of people using a DX7 programming language that has made LOTS of money.

== Jedive ==
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Rob K
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Posted: 14th Sep 2003 16:51
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Quote: "I said that before Rob..."


- And some people obviously didn't read it.


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the_winch
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Posted: 14th Sep 2003 16:53
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Quote: "If the people that you give your game to, won't upgrade to a newer version of DirectX greater than 7, then they probably arn't into games on the PC anyway. Thus that's not your audience for gaming anyway."


If I wanted to make money the people who I would target are the exact people that won't have dx9 on and most of them proberly haven't even heard of half life, most of them won't have heard of nvidia. You can say these people arn't into games if you like just because they like a differnt type of game. I just think it's a bit odd every single game selling shop I have ever been in targets them as well as the half-life playing gamer. There must be money there. Dbpro just isn't the tool for the job. Use dbpro4.1 dbc or bb or anything else.

I don't think it's a question of if dbpro is sutable for targeting those people (it isn't) rather if dbpro should be sutable for targeting them. It must be a minisule percentage of dbpro users that ever make a commercial game and an even smaller one that is targeting the type of people that won't have dx9. tgc have better ways to spend there time that will benifit more of their customers as well as the marketing power the new dx9 features bring. I do think that dbpro programs should give an informative error message when run on comps with out dx9 rather than just crashing however.
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Toothpick
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Posted: 14th Sep 2003 18:08
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win me, xp and the next os from microsoft all have autoupdate
built in.

It's a case of YOU will update because the os will do it (try to)
it's self. The non computer savy users will let the os do what it wants, those who know how to switch off all that junk (he he...)
are more likey to update anyway.

With adsl people are evan more likey to update so in a few years
driver compatability wont be an issue.

At least thats what ms would like, I dunno tho.

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empty
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Posted: 14th Sep 2003 18:40 Edited at: 14th Sep 2003 18:44
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Quote: "Same goes for video card drivers. I can see how newer drivers might break older games that used to work, but yet again whole system instability?"

Erm, of course can video card drivers affect the system stability because they are the interface between hardware and OS; and I've seen problems with that a couple of times.
In fact I had the problem with one of NVidia's drivers for an Elsa Gladiac (Geforce 2). I don't remember the driver version, however, the system failed to boot 3 out of 5 times. In Windows 98 it booted to the loading screen and then just stopped reacting; in Windows XP it started and then shut down immediately.
Also I could write a book about problems with drivers for audio cards with multiple I/O ports on Windows based systems and how they affect system stability and even system speed.

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She said "You've been having a nightmare and it's not over yet"
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