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3 Dimensional Chat / Milkshape 3D 1st model: corkscrew

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ambideXter
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Posted: 27th Feb 2010 04:37 Edited at: 27th Feb 2010 06:01
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So i am making a cork screw.
I have used Milkshape some time ago for Counter Strike, but never got to finish a model before the trial was over, had to learn the very basics.
Welding vertexes together, looked all over the place for that.
Also a corkscrew is spiralling, figured it might not be the easiest 1st model, but the alternative, a pinball machine is probably even more work.

I used 3 stacks and 10 slices, polygons might not determine everything, but is this overkill? I need to make a lot of small rotations for the spiral shape, also the basic cylinder shape should not be to "edged".
Any advise on this would be really appreciated!

Attached is a screen as it is right now in Milkshape, next post would be the pic i roughly use as a reference.

Will be free when it is finished and looking decend. I would not dare to ask money for first models, even if they turn out good, wich i doubt.
If i ever ask something for them if would be for packs and really cheap.
After this i want to do some liquor accessoires (winecooler, olive, slice of lemon, small drink umbrella, etc), after that all the commenly used liquor glasses (coctail, whiskey, shot, cognac, highball etc), and if that ever get's finished and i'm still alive then all common drinks in bottles.

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ambideXter
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Posted: 27th Feb 2010 04:37
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The reference i use.

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ambideXter
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Posted: 27th Feb 2010 04:40 Edited at: 27th Feb 2010 06:04
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If this should be or fits better in the Models & Media section, could a MOD please moved it there? Thnx.

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Quik
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Posted: 27th Feb 2010 12:28
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tbh, it looks more or less like a claw-finger =P


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ambideXter
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Posted: 27th Feb 2010 18:12
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he he. yeah it's wip, it is just the bottom part of the corkscrew, from a strange angle. but i guess on that pic it does look more like a claw finger.

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RUCCUS
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Posted: 28th Feb 2010 15:44
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Ill never understand why some people take screenshots of their models at weird angles that dont allow us to understand what we're looking at. I remember another guy that would constantly take screenshots of like the front tip of his models and thats all, and wonder why nobody would reply to his post.
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ambideXter
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Posted: 28th Feb 2010 18:56 Edited at: 28th Feb 2010 19:28
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only the 3d view is in a weird angle. and it was supposed to get more pics eventually, but doing a cup now, finish this later. rest coule use a little less zoom though. but it it my first model so your response could be a little more constructive.

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RUCCUS
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Posted: 28th Feb 2010 19:21
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I disagree, they're all in fairly weird views. Regardless the 3D view is the only one that really matters.
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ambideXter
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Posted: 28th Feb 2010 19:30 Edited at: 28th Feb 2010 19:40
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no dude i know my model rest of ANGLE is ok, ZOOM is to much. ZOOM is not angle, that's why you don't see the rest, and looks weird, but is straight top, side, front. EDIT: you are right, the top left one could be improved. top right and bottom left are standard, but way to much zoomed in on.

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ambideXter
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Posted: 28th Feb 2010 19:33
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is this better? (cup model)

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ambideXter
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Posted: 28th Feb 2010 19:39 Edited at: 28th Feb 2010 19:40
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oops double post.

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Asteric
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Posted: 28th Feb 2010 20:52
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One thing to note, you have a lot of sides on the smaller handle than you do on the cup which is the main detail, you really need to have more sides on larger pieces, and less sides on the smaller bits, its called having a good poly distribution.

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Ortu
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Posted: 28th Feb 2010 20:54
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yes, that is a better presentation of the model it gives us a better idea of how it is put together.

As for the model, for as simple an object as it is, you can reduce the number of loops up the length of the cup itself, and the handle should probably be welded to the cup body rather than just positioned up against it.

you could reduce the handle to probably an 8 sided cylinder and with smoothed normals it will still appear appropriately rounded particularly since you will never see the open end of the cylinder


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Shaun Of The Dead
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Posted: 28th Feb 2010 20:56
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I like it, but i think you are going a bit too far with making it look smooth. Good work though friend

Your signature has been erased by a mod - Neither clever nor funny.
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ambideXter
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Posted: 28th Feb 2010 21:57 Edited at: 28th Feb 2010 22:01
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Quote: "One thing to note, you have a lot of sides on the smaller handle than you do on the cup which is the main detail, you really need to have more sides on larger pieces, and less sides on the smaller bits, its called having a good poly distribution."

thnx, will do.

Quote: "the handle should probably be welded to the cup body rather than just positioned up against it"

ah was figuring how i should do it, i get it. welt it against the outer side of the cup's body.

Quote: "you could reduce the handle to probably an 8 sided cylinder and with smoothed normals "
yes i guess it's a bit much. about the normals, i am having problems about understanding what kind of maps should be made. it only uses 1 texture since it is one color. i found scrapes of information about how to make speculars, normal etc, but if have no idea wich maps a simple object like this should have. Also with just a basic texture aplied to it it looks strange in the Editor, with low light it is yellow/bit brownish almost. with a lot of light the inside of the cup is hard to tell from the outside, it's all the same white with no shadow.
post a few screens after i eat something.

Quote: "I like it, but i think you are going a bit too far with making it look smooth. Good work though friend "


thank you for your kind words. really apreciate it

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ambideXter
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Posted: 28th Feb 2010 23:06 Edited at: 1st Mar 2010 03:41
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the Chow Chaw Siew was delicious
the yellow-brownish is due to the ambient levels jumping back to 255-255-150 from 255-255-255 (ambient level 100).
with a white light it looks like attached pic.
i know it is way to big, but scaling can be done in 2 min in Milkshape or Entity Maker. i think it looks funny. should be in a dwarf game.
oh oh i have Migraine Ophtalmique, makes you temp almost blind for a short time, attacks are rare but i think one is coming up i start to see everything blurred. then eveything gets worse, dizzy, spinning, then almost blind. still can see now though.
don't see clear hope it goes away.

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ambideXter
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Posted: 28th Feb 2010 23:36 Edited at: 1st Mar 2010 03:43
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if anyone could give any advise about how i can turn the last pic into a normal one with a white cup (texture is just off-white) and/or what kind of maps i need to make that would be awsome.

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RUCCUS
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Posted: 1st Mar 2010 04:10
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Quote: "no dude i know my model rest of ANGLE is ok, ZOOM is to much. ZOOM is not angle, that's why you don't see the rest, and looks weird, but is straight top"


Notice how I said "view", not "angle". "View" would refer to the overall display of the model, including angle, "zoom" (distance), and everything inbetween.
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ambideXter
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Posted: 1st Mar 2010 04:17 Edited at: 1st Mar 2010 04:18
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no you didn't. not in your first post.
Quote: "people take screenshots of their models at weird angles"

it's really sad, even if you are right, that you make another post just to get an argument starting, and a little disturbing. you are right ok?
and so far you have not made a single constructive post.
http://www.thegamecreators.com/?gf=aup#forum

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Ortu
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Posted: 1st Mar 2010 04:34
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when I say normals in this instance, I just mean the way the model distributes light across the faces: whether each face has its own lighting with sharp edges along the poly's or shared (smooth) lighting where light is blended across neighboring faces.

for this object (simple, low detail, smooth non-porous surface) you shouldn't really need a normal map. When you do start using them, look into Crazybump or the photoshop plugin they make it real easy.


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ambideXter
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Posted: 1st Mar 2010 05:02
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thnx you really helped me.
btw do you have any idea why i cannot see the inside of the cup?
the texture is almost white. well it is yellow but cranked up as light and close to white as possible. i see other cup models and they look normal, even with more/stronger light i can't see the inside of the model, but other models i did not make show up right.

if you made the models in your signature then i understand why you won. wow.

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Ortu
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Posted: 1st Mar 2010 05:23 Edited at: 1st Mar 2010 05:27
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well I'm not familiar with milkshape, but it looks like a material or lighting problem.

the pic with it on the table looks like it is neither casting or receiving shadows, and the distribution of light is completely flat and the same across the whole object, so the interior has the same appearance as the outside and you just can't distinguish between them. Check your material settings make sure the texture is being applied to the model and let it be included in shadowing, lamp groups/layers etc.

edit: the characters- the textures and lighting make them look good, the meshes could be improved.

There are better modelers around here and not everyone enters the compos Thanks though!


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Quik
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Posted: 1st Mar 2010 05:51
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Quote: "btw do you have any idea why i cannot see the inside of the cup?"


this can be due to the faces inside the cup facing the wrong way, try selecting all of the faces inside the cup and press ctrl-alt-f //i think, otherwise it is just either ctrl-f or alt-f...\\ and they should show up


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ambideXter
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Posted: 1st Mar 2010 06:10
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@ Ortu: thank you, try that first
@ Quick, i'll try, not saying it won't work, but like Ortu said, it is distributing the light flat and not casting or receiving shadows, and opened the pic again, he is right about that. i'll check the texture first>test it. if it has no affect i'll try your method.
it is my first "completed" model, so i kinda expected problems.
thank you both for helping.

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Ortu
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Posted: 1st Mar 2010 06:17
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hah Quik, I'd actually typed up a bit about the rendering of backfaces but cleared it off before posting. It might be part of the problem, but I think there's some other stuff going on even if it is.

In blender you can have it show the direction of the normals as little blue lines coming off the faces, makes it easy to trouble shoot flipped faces. Milkshape might have something similar.


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ambideXter
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Posted: 1st Mar 2010 06:32
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Quote: "Milkshape might have something similar."

that is good to know. have to admit combinations of problems can be a real headache, with one problem it is so easy with testing, it either works or not. with more you might have solved part of it but cannot see the result sometimes if there is another problem. i'm calling it a day since it is no longer, it is way past bedtime here. so gonna play some Res Evil 5 and then have some nice dreams about hordes of zombies eating corpses and lead.

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Quik
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Posted: 1st Mar 2010 06:38
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Quote: ", it is distributing the light flat and not casting or receiving shadows"


iam very sure that in MS3D, when u have flipped faces, they show completly black


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ambideXter
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Posted: 1st Mar 2010 07:48
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Quote: "iam very sure that in MS3D, when u have flipped faces, they show completly black"

ah you mean from the reference pic? then you are probably right. he might also be. i am probably not. except about you to being right, i was probably right about that, right? anyhowz, now i'm really of to bed, though RE5 is no 4 it is still good, great weapons too.

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RUCCUS
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Posted: 1st Mar 2010 14:24 Edited at: 1st Mar 2010 15:08
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1. Based on the screenshots I saw, I gave the only constructive critisism I could, that you needed to provide a better view.

2. The angle comment was clearly in reference to the perspective view, while the "view" comment was then directed at every viewport seeing as that was what we moved on to discussing.

3. By the time I got back to the post, you had received help on all of your problems that I understood from everyone else, so all that was left to do was clear up the misunderstanding we had earlier. However I can try to think of something else.

If this is a model for an actual video game, you should consider reducing the polygon count on the handle. When modeling, you should always think about sillouhettes. Its easy enough to maintain the shape of that handle while reducing the polygon count enormously. You're currently using a deformed cylinder for the handle, if this were instead a deformed box you would still maintain the shape and integrity of the handle, with a large drop in polygons. You might take it was far as a 5 sided cylinder, but other than that there is no need for so many sides. You can also make the handle seem smoother by working with it's smoothing groups. Ill upload a model in a few minutes showing what I mean.

If this isn't a model for a video game, consider going into higher detail. Bevel the edges around the rim and base of the cup, and on the inside of the cup. Make a smoother transition between the handle and the cup rather than just sticking the handle inside the cup. I would assume this is for render practice since you're putting it all together in a scene, however you also mention giving the models away for free so perhaps its for a game, I dont know.

<edit>

Here:



Your model is currently mixing between the second and third cups in this picture. The first cup would be a LOD model for the cup in a video game, the second cup would be the default model for the cup in a video game, and the third cup would be for high-quality renders, normal map generation, or cinematics.
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ambideXter
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2010 01:09 Edited at: 2nd Mar 2010 05:12
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i really thought you we're trying to get something started, in that case i apologize. guess i almost expect it now.
it is for a game. btw i have seen cups that were for FPSC and were fairly round, maybe by what Ortu said, poly distribution.
the body looked pretty round, however he might have a simple handle, flat bottom (edge) and the top edge was probably also not very round, but it looked ok.
the third cup looks like a cup, the second looks so square, that it looks like it is done on purpose, and there are cups like that, an octagon and similar.
is it possible to have something like the top+bottom edge+handle from cup 2, but with the round body (or almost that round) from 3?
thnx to modern day processors and GPU cards maybe it doesn't need to have Counter-Strike like graphics, as long as it isn't high poly? or not? just asking because FPSC came a long way since it's start.
guess if it has to look good i better get good at poly distribution.
Quote: "instead a deformed box"
but wouldn't that look too square?
Quote: "a 5 sided cylinder"
that would be an alternative?
and with "was far as" you meant "as far as" in that sentence?
thnx for still replying, shows you were trying to help.

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RUCCUS
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2010 02:45
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You need to phrase your posts better, its really hard to understand what you're saying.

The first cup I showed you was an example of a lower-LOD version of the cup. LOD = Level of Detail. In video games, it is common practice to sub out the master mesh with a much lower poly version when the mesh gets to be a certain distance from the camera. This is because at this distance it is virtually un-noticable to the human eye that the mesh has changed.

The second cup looks so square because a) its so close and b) it is being displayed in flat-shaded mode as opposed to displaying with it's smoothing groups in effect. If the cup were rendered in-game at a realistic distance from the camera, it would look fine the way it is. You have to figure 99.99% of the people playing the video game aren't going to get as close as humanly possible to the cup model to check if it is round. In the case of FPSC, it really isn't that great at handling huge polygon counts. This is primarily due to the fact that most of the character and weapon models available for FPSC are too high in polygon count in my opinion.

Yes with next-gen games, you'll find the third cup I posted would likely be the more probable choice for the game.

In the end it is entirely up to you to decide how your model will be used. Something like a cup is really not important and doesn't need a lot of polygons. You need to factor in how much average screen realestate the model will take up in the game, how many polygons you need to get the overall sillouhette of the object you're trying to create, how good you are at texturing the model to replicate details without polygons, if you're able to generate normal maps, and how fast the engine itself is.

One last tip. In terms of FPSC, I've found that the users buying models for their games from the store really don't care about polygon count. I've been an artist on the store for a year now, and have seen some fairly unnecessary polygon counts on models being sold, yet they sell a lot. The simple fact is most of the client base for FPSC are younger teenagers that pay the most attention to having a good looking model, and ignore things like polygon counts.
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ambideXter
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2010 03:01 Edited at: 2nd Mar 2010 05:19
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Quote: "In video games, it is common practice to sub out the master mesh with a much lower poly version when the mesh gets to be a certain distance from the camera. This is because at this distance it is virtually un-noticable to the human eye that the mesh has changed. "

Think i get that, don't know how to do/apply that, i'll look that up first before asking.

Quote: "that pay the most attention to having a good looking model"

Yes, it's the first thing you see, and if you pay for it you want it to look good. but i think you're right that it should be a ballance between appereance and performance.

Thank you for all your explanations and tips. I think i start with a new (cup?) model since i cannot really use the first one anyways. With the cups i wanted to make a cuppucino/coffee machine, so i'll start what i feel like making, though the machine could be pretty "boxy" with little curves, the cup might be easier.
Then again i don't know for sure and need them both in the end. Texturing the machine would be much harder for me, since it use more then the cup's single color. Thnx again.
Post here screens as soon as i have some progress.

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Quik
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2010 11:11
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i have to second RUCCUS here, your model is too high poly for a game, and that is almost a fact, and the second cup he showed, is standar poly in games, since a cup usually isnt important, IF the cup would play a major role in a game, u could make it 10sided or maybe 12 sided, but then i also think that there will only be ONE such cup. Cups are very common, therefore there will probably be more than one cup in view at the same time, therefore more polys = bad FPS.

seeing my point here?


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RUCCUS
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2010 13:25
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Just make sure you have plenty of reference images and you'll be fine. The more study you do on the subject you're modeling, the better it will turn out.
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2010 00:08 Edited at: 3rd Mar 2010 00:11
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Quote: "there will probably be more than one cup in view at the same time"

Yes 2 in/under the coffee machine, eventually being 1 model, but i want to make a seperate cup and machine model also.
I use Fenix, wich runs better then stocks FPSC, but i would probably still have to go easy on the poly's, stock or not. And maybe make a decision wether it is gonna be used in my game or for others as well. I want to share it. But my point all a long, the second cup does not look anything like a standard coffee cup, also i do want a "round" cup, round looking at least. Sigh. Guess i have no choice.

Quote: "make sure you have plenty of reference images"

I do, but they are not all for the same machine/cup. But before making another model i can always search for more.

Before all that i'm gonna look up how the engine know what mesh to use when distance is changed, how to name it or what else should be done. Btw a "non-round" cup can look very good, they do exist, my brother has cups like that, it is just that i want to make
cafe/bar/coffee-shop type standard cups that go with a "professional" coffee machine, not the type of machine people would use at home.

Thank you for your help, and i will look up a few thinks and think about what my priorities are.

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Quik
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2010 05:44
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Quote: "also i do want a "round" cup, round looking at least. Sigh. Guess i have no choice."


thats the reason to why you have smoothing groups, specular maps, and such, to "fake" it being round when it isnt, sure, if u look at it from above, u can SEE it being squary, but, there is like no player who plays games that acually care //if u arent into 3d that is\\ slap on an awesome texture and ur fine with the second cup, u could PERHAPS use 2 more seams for the sides, but i really wouldnt recommend it.


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ambideXter
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Posted: 4th Mar 2010 01:42 Edited at: 5th Mar 2010 09:51
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Great advice Quik, it does not actually have to be round, as long as it looks round it's fine. 2 more seams? Perhaps i could make both, give an option (low/higher poly) or test if it looks good without 2 more seams.

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