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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Wizardofid's segments in general, weekly diary

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wizard of id
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Posted: 16th Mar 2010 09:30
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Well I finally decided to write a little about segments this is likely to be weekly with new things to be added as often as possible.Where applicable and if time allows some sample meshes pictures and video's for your enjoyment and understanding.

As such it is not really a tutorial of sorts but some general things that I have discovered over the last few months while trying to figure out the best method to model meshes to build levels with.

But in order to do so some understanding of how segments works it is best to speak a little about segments.I am no expert when it comes to segments and modeling so there might be things that I have not tried or do differently to users here.So if you do spot any errors or found a easier method of creating segments please do share.


Segments creation can mean nearly any thing within your level design static and some dynamic segments.But these remain immovable.

There is really no limitation on what can be created and done with proper planning.There are however limitations on how they can be created.This has mostly to do with entity and player collision as well as polygon count and what FPSC can allow.

But lets look at player and entity collision and floor segment creation.Most of the errors and problems are found with floors ramps stairs among some of the objects player walk on.

RULE 1 with floor segments it should ONLY contain solid meshes the same apply to any other mesh that is accessible to the player.Doing this simply avoids annoying player and entity collision problems.It should be note that the right balance then needs to be found between solid and non-solid meshes and polygon count.

RULE 2 floor segments should only contain a single mesh and no dynamic parts.This again will avoid polygon collision problems.

RULE 3 floor meshes have to comply to the 100 x 100 x 100 unit dimension using any thing larger will result in entities and in some case player getting stuck in the floor meshes.There is a exception meshes may be for example 100 x 50 x 5 units which will still allow for entity and player collision.However either the length or width needs to remain 100 units to allow for proper placement in your editor the are exceptions of course when the mesh needs to be specific to your designing needs, and requires to be smaller of both the length and width dimensions

RULE 4 Floor meshes should at best be kept low polygon.This goes hand in hand with rule 3's dimension rule that they should not exceed the 100 x 100 x 100 unit dimension.One needs to understand that FPSC has very limited collision with floors and a simple polygons sticking out of the floor will likely cause collision problems.So at best it's recommended to keep the flat, indents are allowed but should not exceed 5 units, the best is to keep it within the 2.5 unit range to allow for proper collision.Also part of this rule is to keep floors at an angle of 45 degree or less.Angles above 45 should rather be split into 2 or 3 segments with a gradual angle increase.

This is the end of part 1

Part 2 will be looking at wall segments and meshes as we progress I will start looking a more advance stuff as well as FPSC segment creator with some tips and hints of using it...

"In my weird politically incorrect hypothetically incoherent contradicting obscured world definitively maybe"

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wizard of id
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Posted: 16th Mar 2010 11:47 Edited at: 16th Mar 2010 18:02
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Well lets start with part 2

Walls segments and meshes are completely different from floor segments as they are less prone to have problems.But the same principles apply to them as when they are limited by what FPSC will allow.

Collision problems do occur but that are usually player related but on occasions entity collision problems can also occur.Following these simple in rules you would end up with a lot less problems.

Rule 1 Walls meshes must be a single mesh and not contain numerous meshes as a single mesh do not confuse this with segments.The final segment in FPSC can contain a few meshes where the segment is made from many SINGLE meshes.I have done a test with FPSC segment editor you can import as many as 50 meshes for a single segment, this however greatly depends on mesh size and how quickly the editor runs out of memory.It will also depend if FPSC will allow the segment or not.

I prefer some times to use a few single meshes for a single segment as my uvmapping is not very good so this allows me to use numerous textures for a single segment.This also allows for keeping the meshes simple in design.The draw back of this method is it does push the polygon count up a bit.

Rule 2 Walls Must be a solid mesh and non-solid mesh in inaccessible areas for collision reason.But generally rather keep it a solid mesh in some extreme cases a non solid mesh may degrade performance and culling problems may arise.

Rule 3 Keep wall segments separate from floor segments unless you are making a room segment, creating a straight of external or any other type of segment other than a room segment floors should not be part of the segment.However ceilings may be used with standalone wall segments if the ceilings are inaccessible to the player.You may even go as far as to model the wall and ceiling as a single mesh.(for an example check out the sewer or tunnel packs that I have created on the model and media forum)

Rule 4 ONLY a single dynamic or CSG object may be used and in some case where FPSC allows use no more than two CSG objects.Using more that one dynamic will result in the second dynamic object not displaying correctly.The same applies to CSG objects they need to be a basic square circle triangle and similar shape or else there will be CSG cutting problems.It is recommended for high detail or multi CSG objects to be applied directly when modeling the wall mesh.
As general advise I recommend not using high detailed CGS objects as they may or may not work.High polygon meshes that needs to be cut by either a high or low polygon CSG object may also have unexpected results.Which is why I recommend for less headaches to apply the CSG in your editor.
The draw back with using the method a lot in a single level is that there will be a slight performance degradation as your levels will be making less use of culling the level.In other words this method will result in more of the level to be rendered at these pre-CSGEd meshes.Depending on the size of the level it could have little or no effect, so again it would require some planning before hand.


Rule 5 Wall segments should not contain polygons at jump height or crawl height they require to be either below or above those levels.High detailed mesh polygons can be used but it is recommended to keep it out of player and entity reach.


Rule 6 Walls do not have specific dimension requirement unless it conflicts with rule 5.I advise that you keep segments in the following limits to allow easy placement in the FPSC editor as odd numbered segments will not connect seamlessly with other segments.They can be 500 units in height and 200 in length which will still allow for seamlessly connecting with other segments so do not use 300 by 122 as they will not connect seamlessly with other segments as well as not seamlessly connecting with them self.This of course you are making segments for a specific reason.It is then wise to make special segments that will allow the end pieces to connect seamlessly with other segments.

Thanks that is the end of part two.

The next one will be looking at the FPSC segment editor and a few other modeling tricks that can be used which would tie in nicely with level designing.

"In my weird politically incorrect hypothetically incoherent contradicting obscured world definitively maybe"

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Kravenwolf
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Posted: 16th Mar 2010 13:43
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Quote: "The next one will be looking at the FPSC segment editor "


I would really appreciate this one. I've read your previous segments tips thread (the one that didn't get any replies) awhile back when I was trying to figure out the segment editor, but I was never able to get my segments exported into FPS Creator correctly, or the cutters working properly. It always ended up in error, invisibile segments, or illegal mesh lines

I watched the provided video tutorials religiousy, followed the steps to a T (to the best I understood them), but I still couldn't get my segments or cutters working properly. I haven't bothered creating my own segments since that last failure, but maybe something you overview will help me understand what I was doing wrong (I'm sure it's something basic and in plain sight), and I can download the segment editor again, and give it another shot.

Kravenwolf

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wizard of id
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Posted: 16th Mar 2010 15:19 Edited at: 16th Mar 2010 15:20
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@Kravenwolf
Quote: "
I've read your previous segments tips thread (the one that didn't get any replies) "
Lol yeah disappoints me then when people still ask questions and at that members that were around when I posted the thread...

The FPSC segment editor is simple to use but can be annoying and irritating when the simplest of meshes stubbornly refuses to do their intended job and different meshes works better with different segment types and segment lighting methods.

It's not overly complicated just overly annoying to work with.

It is going to take a 2 or 3 days as it requires some screenshots and maybe a video it requires cleaning FPSC directory desktop among other stuff so you do not get confused by all my clutter...

I mean currently there are 25 different folders on my desktop and 150 + files......

"In my weird politically incorrect hypothetically incoherent contradicting obscured world definitively maybe"

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Dr Parsnips
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Posted: 16th Mar 2010 16:02
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Very nice thanks for this! Very informative.

Quote: "Rule 4 ONLY a single dynamic or CSG object may be used and in some case where FPSC allows use no more than two CSG objects.Using more that one dynamic will result in the second dynamic object not displaying correctly.The same applies to CSG objects they need to be a basic square circle triangle and similar shape or else there will be CSG cutting problems.It is recommended for high detail or multi CSG objects to be apply directly when modeling the wall mesh."


I found when making my own cutters, having high detailed CSG objects didn't cause me any problems but that might have just been me.

Looking forward to the next one!

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wizard of id
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Posted: 16th Mar 2010 16:23 Edited at: 16th Mar 2010 16:24
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@Dr Parsnips

As general advise I recommend not using high detailed CGS objects as they may or may not work and are as predictable as the wind.Other than that I will edit the rule adding as well that there is no confusion that I am referring to the cutters and not the the mesh
however with that said High polygon meshes that needs to be cut may also have problems

Thanks for the input much appreciated...*insert smiley face here*

"In my weird politically incorrect hypothetically incoherent contradicting obscured world definitively maybe"

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wizard of id
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Posted: 16th Mar 2010 16:31
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Rule 4 updated of part two

"In my weird politically incorrect hypothetically incoherent contradicting obscured world definitively maybe"

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Dr Parsnips
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Posted: 16th Mar 2010 16:48
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Quote: "@Dr Parsnips

As general advise I recommend not using high detailed CGS objects as they may or may not work and are as predictable as the wind.Other than that I will edit the rule adding as well that there is no confusion that I am referring to the cutters and not the the mesh
however with that said High polygon meshes that needs to be cut may also have problems

Thanks for the input much appreciated...*insert smiley face here*"


ahhh fair enough my man, I will keep that in mind

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KeithC
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Posted: 16th Mar 2010 17:52
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Nice contribution again, Wiz of Id.

-Keith
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wizard of id
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Posted: 17th Mar 2010 11:54 Edited at: 17th Mar 2010 11:56
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Thanks KC


Well while I am busy with the FSPC segment editor part, lets talk about Segment mesh creation in general.


Lets look first at windows doors and any type of CSG segment.But first we need to look at the segment it self it contains 3 meshes or more.Two static meshes and a dynamic entity mesh, the dynamic entity part is the grate the window, fence or whatever you want it to be.This could also be a static entity which would mean you will not be able to interact with it.Dynamic entities in segments can be interacted with.

The two static meshes where one is the CSG that you will use to cut the walls, you will be using it with so that one can see on the other side on the wall through the window,grate ect.As a note CSG is optional if you are using a standalone wall that has been pre-CSGED...

There is no specific limit on size of the segment depending on the size of the wall you will be cutting.If you intend to cut standard room segment wall it is best to keep the dimensions in the following limits 90H* x 90L* x 10-20W*.Keeping them at those limits will result in less CSG problems.However larger may or may not work.You will note that I will always give out limitations on what is deemed a safe dimension to work with and still add that larger may work.The idea of sharing this with you is to avoid further frustration by giving dimension which may not work every time it is not the purpose of this.

Height and length should always be in the 90's x 90's or less range, width is dependent on the wall you will be cutting so if the walls is 20 units thick the CSG should at be 60 units so that there is sticking 20 unit out on either side of the wall the less there is sticking out from the walls the less likely it will be a successful CGS cut.

The second mesh would be the frame that houses the window, grate ect this should stick out 2.5 units or more on either side.It is optional to have the frame stick out a bit it could also be embedded into the wall it really depends on what you create.

It is best when creating the window grate ect to create them together in your 3D model editor to avoid any obvious gaps.
When creating the window and frame that houses the the window the window should start where the the frame part ends in the inside of the frame.So if you have a frame that the edge on the inside ends at 5 units the window should start at 5 units.

The frame it self should be at least 5 units thick so that the CSG that you create over laps the window frame by 2.5 units.The reason for the is that a little bit more of the wall gets cut other wise the window frame and wall will both try and share the same 5 unit space in the game which visually will not look good.

The dynamic/static window grate segment speaks for it self it is a pretty straight forward segment.

NB do not forget when importing the window frame to make it immune to CSG or else the window frame will be cut the same applies to the wall you are cutting it has to a CSG compatible.

This can be found in the FPS files as CSGimmune =1/0 where state 1 activates and 0 disables it.

That is all till next time




You will find that I will cover every thing in the FPSC segment world at one point or another.As this progress I will show you how to create simple room segments without the fuzz.So this will be the first of many modeling segments aparts.In future you can also look out for cross-junction t-junction straight and dead end segments and mesh creation.

"In my weird politically incorrect hypothetically incoherent contradicting obscured world definitively maybe"

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Dr Parsnips
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Posted: 18th Mar 2010 02:55
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Very Uself and informative Wizard, Keep it comming!

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wizard of id
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Posted: 18th Mar 2010 08:05
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Quote: "Very Uself and informative Wizard, Keep it comming!"

Well I am glad that you enjoy it as much as I enjoy writing it....

"In my weird politically incorrect hypothetically incoherent contradicting obscured world definitively maybe"

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Asteric
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Posted: 18th Mar 2010 20:00
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I was wondering how to work segments, thanks for this!

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wizard of id
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Posted: 20th Mar 2010 21:38
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It's has not taken off as planned there are not a lot of questions/feedback regarding segments so that might be a good time to asks some questions if you have any in mind about segments it would help to formulate the diary according to what people want to know about segments CSG segment and entities.

BTW the nest part about the editor will be delayed due to having to work on the stock media...

"In my weird politically incorrect hypothetically incoherent contradicting obscured world definitively maybe"

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rolfy
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Posted: 20th Mar 2010 22:45 Edited at: 20th Mar 2010 23:04
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Really in depth and informative Wiz.
Quote: "RULE 1 with floor segments it should ONLY contain solid meshes the same apply to any other mesh that is accessible to the player.Doing this simply avoids annoying player and entity collision problems.It should be note that the right balance then needs to be found between solid and non-solid meshes and polygon count."

With regard to floor segments I found this with simple floors and terrain, remember I may have a different creation method here maybe even the modeling software can make a big difference I did find that if model is sliced it can create a bunch of new unwanted verts with different normals axis which FPSC really hated (had to do a lot of welding).
Like yourself I too have created terrain segments, I have found though that these did not have to be solid meshes, a simple plane with heightmap deformation applied can be sliced into 100x100 meshes (of course these then need the pivot point moved to centre of each and moved to zero axis before export to use in segeditor, a long and arduous task, thank you macro recorder). I used 400 segments for centre to keep enemy collision and made a rim boundary which extends another 5 segments in each direction (a single mesh segment which has fine player collision) to use up a little more of the map. This keeps poly count real low (each mesh being only two poly's). I have been doing this to create environments where the terrain and skybox integrate perfectly, and it works well, even up to the edge of the terrain its hard to tell where the land ends and the skybox begins.
Where the entire terrain or whatever is imported and creates a single segment as you know causes segeditor to crash when it runs out of memory with too may meshes (my max has been around 65) but that said I have found (provided the meshes are above floor level) you can place flat floor segments beneath and enemy collision will work fine in these areas with characters following the contours of the meshes above (actually quite handy if you dont want enemy characters wandering off the path).
One other thing and something I have done myself, if you use a light for sun and place it high up extending the range of the light to simulate daylight you will find that shadows are blocky at the far ranges and it looks awful, I dont think FPSC can calculate distant light ranges well so its best to use a number of low range lights strategically placed than a single light (I get around this by baking shadows into the terrain texture and only placing lights where entitys sit in editor).
I look forward to the rest of your findings, at the moment I only have time to discuss the one aspect but will keep an eye on this thread.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 20th Mar 2010 23:03
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@rolfy

Thanks rolfy for the input.I completely forgot about your method.Hopefully I will never forget again.

But as to the sun problem I found using a invisible cone mesh a few floors above at the edge of the map will create good looking long shadows.Again depending on the angle of the cone so to simulate the light it would move closer to the center of the map every time the angle changes so you can have angled sun.

then again I am not sure how long this method can still be used before like X10 renders the cone whether we liked it or not

"In my weird politically incorrect hypothetically incoherent contradicting obscured world definitively maybe"

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rolfy
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Posted: 20th Mar 2010 23:08
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Thanks for the info on cone mesh will try that and see how it looks, I dont think our methods are so different but as you know a simple little thing can change a lot, I will send you a sample of this terrain I am rambling about so you can take a look at it, would appreciate your input.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 20th Mar 2010 23:15
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okay as for the cone a 500 unit range works good simply applying a entity shader like cubeent should render it invisible as well as not casting a shadow

"In my weird politically incorrect hypothetically incoherent contradicting obscured world definitively maybe"

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rolfy
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Posted: 21st Mar 2010 09:02
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Thanks for that
I know that terrain is not exactly what you are referring to in this thread but thought my findings might be of interest as it all still applies to segments in general, I have used 3x3 segment size planes to create segment floors for corridors and they work fine as long as you place segments beneath and around the centre of these (as I said above the terrains used same size and had a fair amount of poly's too). FPSC really does have a strange way of calculating enemy collision as opposed to players.
Hope to discuss this more when you get clear of re-doing the stock media.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 21st Mar 2010 09:28 Edited at: 21st Mar 2010 09:48
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yeah thanks if you have some time now I am on the TGC chat
http://heretic-studios.uk.to/chat/

BTW

I have not further investigated using planes to improve collision don't have enough day light hours in a day.But I do hope that the future will be bright for collision and we just have to sit on hockeykid and Lee and nag them to do away with the 100x100 mesh collision method.

But it is definitely worth mentioning, what I would like to know with the added polys how is the performance.I Mean technically
speaking you do not have to add it to the whole map just the specific areas you need it to be or problem areas for the player and entity.

Edit

It think it would be worth mentioning the dimensions you are using for the mesh underneath specifically the thickness.A normal floor would be 2.5 units do you make it 1 units?

"In my weird politically incorrect hypothetically incoherent contradicting obscured world definitively maybe"

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KeithC
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Posted: 7th Mar 2011 21:08
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Unlocking post.

-Keith

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Lewis
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Posted: 8th Mar 2011 09:35
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In case anyone reads the post above Keith's, the chat doent exist anymore.

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wizard of id
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Posted: 8th Mar 2011 17:12
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Quote: "In case anyone reads the post above Keith's, the chat doent exist anymore.
"

Pitty

this thread will be updated later tonight..stay tuned

Just been chatting to my neighbours teenage daughter and it turns out she's big into UFOs and aliens.

Which is cool because tomorrow she's getting abducted.
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wizard of id
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Posted: 9th Mar 2011 21:18
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I think a welcome back to this thread is in order. Just as a reminder all previous posts should be read or else you will not be able to follow and new posts that is added.

I want to talk a little about segment creation out of the normal 100 x 100, as well as optimizing meshes for best performance. As per segment rules any thing larger than the 100 x 100 rule will make entity collision impossible.

Since entity collision to work correctly is requires a floor mesh 100 x 100 that is no thicker than 5 units, this may seem like a impossible task to create a mesh larger than 100 x 100. If you create a mesh that only contain walls and a ceiling if the entity are not going to walk on the ceiling it can form part of the wall mesh.

To achieve this takes a little practice and you will be creating new meshes in no time with minimum effort and frustration

I discovered that player collision works fine in X9 with a single face wall, any exterior faces not visible to the player is removed which leaves me with a mesh which has drastically reduced polygons and from a modeling perspective it is easier to work with meshes.

What I normally like to do is take create a 300 x 300 x 300 primitive block, and hollow it out as per fig one and fig two.









After which I delete the external faces not needed, but note I always leave the floor faces in place.The reason for this is the FPSC segment editor block size is 300 x 300 and meshes moves in increments of 5 units, placement will become difficult on odd shape meshes.

This allows you to create your mesh with in the 300 x 300 limit and can be any shape or amount of detail without effecting placement with in the editor.

What happens if the mesh is larger than 300? Well you can combine a few 300 x 300 seamless meshes to achieve the size you require.Fig 4 shows using more than one 300 x 300 mesh to achieve the size needed.Each mesh is exported and loaded in to the FPSC segment editor, a single mesh is saved at a time and then combined within FPSC it self.



Using this method makes the possibilities limitless.

Any Questions ?

Just been chatting to my neighbours teenage daughter and it turns out she's big into UFOs and aliens.

Which is cool because tomorrow she's getting abducted.
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