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FPSC Classic Product Chat / FPSC games in 3D - A Speculative Thread/Idea

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chidem
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2010 21:42
Hey All

I'm sure the forthcoming 3D push has not passed you all by so I thought I would start up a thread about a tech that's really intrigued me. TriOvitz 3D is being utilized in the forthcoming Game of the Year edition of Batman: Arkham Asylum - apparently the tech will produce a colour 3D image on ANY TV - all you need to wear are the bundled 3D glasses. Where this is potentially relevant for FPSC is its possible implementation into our games as described in this article.

What interests me here is the possibility this SDK could be used to convert our games into 3D, or used to create a 3D mod. Personally I'm really excited about 3D but there again I am kinda geeky like that. But, with my business hat on, I can also say that I early 3D optimization using a tech that requires no new hardware really could help us FPSC denizens set our titles a part. What do you guys think? Is this a silly pipe dream on my part?

Pioneering: Explore the Early American West - Website: http://www.thehistoryforge.com
TerrorNation
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2010 21:47
They're going to release Arkham Asylum in 3D? Sounds quite nice....
chidem
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2010 21:53
Quote: "They're going to release Arkham Asylum in 3D? Sounds quite nice.... "


Tell me about it! March 26th in Europe and May 11th in the States - I can't wait to try out this new tech! I've not seen anyone talk about what it's like except in the article posted about but it sounds great - I played it but never bought it so I'm excited to try it out.

Here is another brief article that seems to sum the tech up nicely

Pioneering: Explore the Early American West - Website: http://www.thehistoryforge.com
Medusa
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2010 22:08
3d vision games are being pushed by the games industry at the moment.
It's just one more attempt by the industry to get their hand in your pocket.
3d television was canned in the 1950's because of potential lawsuits involving epilepsy and migraine due to the effect on the brain.
Introducing the same potential lawsuits into the games industry would take a very very brave developer.
Horses for courses!
Pong is a brilliant 2d game but rubbish in 3d
people would be better to concentrate on improving the quality of their games rather than adding ribbons and whistles to a dead duck.
My personal opinion only!

mpc
Shadowtroid
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2010 22:12
Yeah, but Pong doesn't use 3d graphic rendering.

This actually would be very cheap...Only the glasses would be needed, and the game would be set to run in 3d...

And while it may be:
Quote: "one more attempt by the industry to get their hand in your pocket,"


isn't that how capitalism works? If they didn't want your money they wouldn't make anything.

chidem
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2010 22:22 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2010 22:24
Also, pong doesn't try to emulate an inherently 3D experience - such as looking through someone else's eyes...in a first person perspective.

As for...
Quote: "It's just one more attempt by the industry to get their hand in your pocket."

...well, this tech will only require a pair of very, very cheap 3D glasses. Of course we could easily turn this thread into another "make your game great first" discussion but I am kinda tired of them. It goes without saying your game should be designed and built to the best of your ability - if we take that as read then I think we can have a more fruitful discussion about the actual implementation of 3D. It's an important issue I think with even TGC joining the 3D standard group (I can't remember the name). The point of this thread is to discuss the feasibility of integrating TriOviz 3D into FPSC for those users who are interested in the tech.

For me, I think an affordable way to implement 3D without users having to upgrade is a great opportunity

Quote: "3d television was canned in the 1950's because of potential lawsuits involving epilepsy and migraine due to the effect on the brain.
Introducing the same potential lawsuits into the games industry would take a very very brave developer."


As to this...3D did not disappear because of this - it disappeared because it didn't work that well and only allowed you to watch films colourless. As for the "very very brave developer" that can statement is demonstrably untrue. Google 3D games. Or Batman Arkhum Asylum GOTY. Or PS3 June 10th firmware update. Or GDC. Or 3D TV. Or Virtual Boy - that thing actually did give headaches (I had one, I know!).

Pioneering: Explore the Early American West - Website: http://www.thehistoryforge.com
Scurvy Lobster
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Posted: 24th Mar 2010 12:01 Edited at: 24th Mar 2010 12:03
The big problem with 3D images are that the technology has been available for ages but hardly any end-users have it in their homes (low end red/green glasses does not count).

Ask yourself how many people you know who have a 3D monitor or set of 3D glasses. If you know even 1 person then you are member of the very exclusive "I know a guy with 3D equipment Club".

Even in two-three years we shouldn't expect 3D to be mainstream. It's simply too expensive and that won't magically change tomorrow.

chidem
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Posted: 24th Mar 2010 15:46 Edited at: 24th Mar 2010 15:47
@Scruvey Lobster

I know this may sound harsh but please don't take this the wrong way - did you even read my post? Again, not my intention to sound nasty but if you had then you may have noticed this statement - "the tech will produce a colour 3D image on ANY TV"

Let me reiterate - I am NOT talking about the steroscopic 3D that requires a new TV/expensive glasses. The TriOviz solution does not require users to upgrade - nor is it the old school red/blue glasses of old. This new technique adds depth of field to games in colour - it also allows obvervors without the glasses to watch the game normally - it's doesn't, for the most part, display a double line.

To summarize - TriOviz is a way of implementing 3D on any TV, or any monitor. It requires no upgrade of hardware. The announced SDK allows 2D games (i.e. most games) to be converted into 3D games without modifying the original program's source (or so it appears).

The only additional hardware required would be a set of compatable 3D glasses which can be purchased for a very low price (sub $2). I'm sure an imaginative user on this board could come up with a compelling retail bundle that included the glasses for the end user.

The reason I've created this topic is that this technique completely eradicated the need to make this statement: "Ask yourself how many people you know who have a 3D monitor or set of 3D glasses. If you know even 1 person then you are member of the very exclusive "I know a guy with 3D equipment Club" because it doesn't matter what setup the user has - they can have an enhanced, full colour 3D experience. At no extra cost. Other than the very cheap glasses which I would probably sell with the game, if I were to impliment it.

Pioneering: Explore the Early American West - Website: http://www.thehistoryforge.com
chidem
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Posted: 24th Mar 2010 15:48
Here is the article I linked to in the first post on the tech:

Quote: "Darkworks introduced its TriOviz for Games SDK yesterday during GDC, and while TriOviz technology has been around for years in Hollywood, it wasn't until today that this same technology debuted for console and PC titles. Essentially, this software wrapper enables standard 2D video games to be viewed in 3D on a traditional 2D display, and we were able to sneak an exclusive look at the technology today at the company's meeting room. We were shown a European version of Batman: Arkham Asylum on Microsoft's Xbox 360, and we were given a set of specialized glasses (which were passive, unlike NVIDIA's active-shutter 3D Vision specs) in order to enjoy the effect. So, how was it? In a word or two, not bad. It obviously wasn't perfect, but you have to realize just how cheap of a solution this is for the consumer to implement. All that's required is a set of special glasses, but given that these can be distributed in paper-frames form, you could easily find a set for a couple of bucks (at most), if not bundled in for free with future games. Users won't need to purchase any additional hardware whatsoever, and what they'll get is a deeper, more immersive image in return.

We could very clearly see the 3D effect, and even though it was subtle, it definitely enhanced our experience. We noticed a minor bit of blurring and ghosting during just a few scenes, but when you consider that this doesn't actually change the underlying code in existing 2D games (that's the cue for developers to breathe a sigh of relief), we didn't feel that these minor quirks were unreasonable. The other interesting aspect is just how clear the image remained for onlookers that didn't have 3D glasses on; we noticed slight image doubling at specific points, but it's not something we simply couldn't look at without acquiring a headache.

More after the break...

We dug in with a few questions, and we were told that this technology could be applied to actual 3D HDTVs (requiring 120Hz or more) with just a small software tweak, and existing titles could be "upgraded" to 3D by giving users a simple update via DLC portals. We also found that the 3D effect could be toggled on and off in the settings menu of games, and while Darkworks wasn't able to spill details on upcoming titles that would support this stuff, we definitely got the idea that more than a few announcements were imminent.


We also noticed that the effect was most significant in games with high polygon counts (yet another reason the Wii is being overlooked here), and thanks to the low barrier to entry from a consumer standpoint, we're guessing that these guys will be getting lots of attention from developers. We know -- it's easy to pass stuff like this off as yet another gimmick, but we're all for improvements where no additional hardware purchases are required, and we can't help but think that this would be a nice option to have on some of the more visually complex titles hitting the market. Here's hoping we'll hear more on that in the not-too-distant future."


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FernandoK
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Posted: 24th Mar 2010 22:13 Edited at: 24th Mar 2010 22:31
"3d television was canned in the 1950's because of potential lawsuits involving epilepsy and migraine due to the effect on the brain.
Introducing the same potential lawsuits into the games industry would take a very very brave developer."

Actually, the headaches associated with 3d are due to poor image alignement. Also, the image quality in those days was just awfull.

As far as I know, any 3d game using DirectX, from version 8, I think, can be played in 3d. What you need are a pair of lcd glasses that can be connected to a PC. Most of these come with a bit of software that allows the images to sync.
Somewhere I have a boxfull of these that I haven't used for years.
I don't think that TGC needs to do anything at all. The capability is already there. The only drawback, if I remember, is that the screen refresh rate needs to be fairly high.

Here's an example: http://www.edimensional.com/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=29
chidem
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Posted: 24th Mar 2010 23:18
Thanks for the link, FernandoK - That tech looks cool but again the problem is price - these glasses cose $99 making them prohibitively expensive as an game pack in. What I like about the system I flagged up is that it doesn't need any expensive hardware upgrade - but cool product nonetheless

Pioneering: Explore the Early American West - Website: http://www.thehistoryforge.com
Scurvy Lobster
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Posted: 24th Mar 2010 23:24
I read your post chidem. The "fancy" TriOviz tech is simply old school red/green glasses. Similar glasses are found in a bunch of recent 3D Hollywood movies. Trust me - it's really not all that impressive.

chidem
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Posted: 24th Mar 2010 23:35
Quote: "I read your post chidem. The "fancy" TriOviz tech is simply old school red/green glasses. Similar glasses are found in a bunch of recent 3D Hollywood movies. Trust me - it's really not all that impressive.
"


I've not tried it yet so I can't say myself, though the early reviews have been positive - and they also suggest (or rather, state outright) that this is not the old school solution - i.e., it's in colour. The lenses may well be red/green but the tech the ol' 1950s system. I'm not saying this is a revolutionary or amazing system, but I do believe there is an opportunity here. Surely you must see the marketing and even creative opportunities in being able to offer your game in full colour 3D?

Pioneering: Explore the Early American West - Website: http://www.thehistoryforge.com
Scurvy Lobster
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Posted: 24th Mar 2010 23:46 Edited at: 24th Mar 2010 23:47
I actually should have added that the tech is similar to the 3D DVD/Blu-ray releases seen recently (I don't want to mix this up with the quite impressive tech seen in modern 3D cinemas).

In my opinion it really just is a cheap marketing trick trying to ride the 3D wave. But time will tell of course...

Aaagreen
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Posted: 25th Mar 2010 19:29
You can get any game in 3d with the free iz3d drivers. Then whip out your old red/blue (or other colour) glasses and away you go.

Jeku always gets drunk and tries to Moderate the ocean. Tirelessly slapping the waves as they roll in.

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