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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / space mmo need help

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TheConnorian
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Posted: 5th Apr 2010 21:17
i am good at modelling, making stories and game ideas and am trying to make a space mmo but im no good at coding i need help! I need to know what would be best for making one and how to get good at coding.
mike5424
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Posted: 5th Apr 2010 21:36
Start out smaller. A MMO would take alot of programming, Start off more simple!

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TheConnorian
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Posted: 5th Apr 2010 21:51
ooook then.
i am good at modelling, making stories and game ideas and am trying to make a space rpg but im no good at coding i need help! I need to know what would be best for making one and how to get good at coding.
Attila
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Posted: 5th Apr 2010 22:31
well, to develop a game you need to do the following:

Write down a concept containing the story, the characters, describe places and landscapes, possible interactions between game characters and user and game. a.e. is the score saved anywhere? Then draw a storyboard with 'highlights' action moments and such as detailed pictures.

Make a technical concept, describing how animation is technically done, what animations are needed )a.e. walk, run, talk, handshake...)

Then start to 'program' to handle the environment and add dummy characters to program and test interaction between environment and characters.

increase details in the environment.

next, add more detailed characters to and test out detailed handling and interaction (a.e. when a sword is picked up, does your program place it at the appropriate place [hand,belt]?)

finish details as textures, trees and test, test more and test much more...
TheConnorian
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 00:08
thanks attila, i will jot all that down now but i still dont know how to program can you recomend a site or book that will teach me...
Attila
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 11:18
There are some books on DarkBasics home page.

But a method is to start with something small, create a small game like a space battle with only one enemy, find out how to make sprite (read help), the how to move your sprite around (see sprite in help), learn how to control your ship (sprite) and then how to control the enemy (AI). next find out how to create a shot (another sprite) and to move it.
Then find a command to check if you hit the enemy-sprite and when it happens play a sound or/and show an explosion (another sprite)

Or (most easy) start with Pong a classic game you will need only two paddles an a ball-sprite and movement is up/down for the paddles and right/left+up/down for the ball.
Van B
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 11:42
I think the best thing would be to just get stuck in. Get DBPro, and make a space environment - like using a skybox for the stars, add in movement controls, add in planets. I think it's good to have a sandbox, so you can experiment and learn from it. Then, later on redo it all when making your game.

The only way to learn something really, is to need it. If you want to explore space, or at least your own version of space, then what better place to start than an empty environment. For instance, take a square space image and texture it onto a box, invert the box, disable lighting, and stick it where the camera is located - that's the starts of a space engine right there.

Every project needs some sort of planning, but your not at the project stage yet. You need to learn 3D movement and rotation, vectors, and stuff like that. DBPro makes it easy, so easy in fact that I'd say making a pong game would be wasted effort, you'll quickly learn the basics of 3D, and that's a fast track onto these sorts of projects.

Once you have a test engine, then start your project, either let your engine evolve or start it from scratch. Plan out your project around what you learn making the test engine, depending on how long things will take. For instance, I would make whole races of ships at a time, make all the models and UV map them, then do all the textures in one swoop - then with 1 races units finished, I'd take a break and work on another aspect. Then when doing another race, I won't have the same POV, and the race media would hopefully then contrast with each other. It's no good to go from say, a technical drop ship design onto an organic alien blob. When working in a small team or on your own, it's vital to keep a grip of the workload, plan it, and spread out all the aspects so you don't get sick of doing the same thing.


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TheComet
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 12:42
Yes, throw him in deep water. If he swims, he will have the power to learn DBP, if he sinks, well... THEN HE'S A WITCH!!

It takes time to master a language. Best you get DBP, look at the examples that come with it and change different things to see what effect it has on the program. You could change position, size, texture... You could even start to add your own models to the game. If you truly want to learn how to code, you will stick to it and gain more and more knowledge until you make your breakthrough.

TheComet

Attila
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 14:17 Edited at: 6th Apr 2010 14:18
to start with there is sometimes a free trial to download. I wrote a small tutorial for a pong like game which I add as attachment (as PDF) maybe this can give you an idea about how to write your first game in DB.
TheConnorian
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 15:13
i have dbpro and know the basics of the langauge my problem is that i have trouble putting it all together. I will probrably start like attila said with one ship and your own. I have found a book on dbpro and am going to order it soon. I have started coding a little and have been slightly succesful. And I think to give you a better idea of what im doing and what recourses i have heres some writings.

My team is me and my 3 brothers. 2 of which know nothing about coding but have an amazing imagination. the other 1 is good at coding and modelling but has lots of work to do.
We have dbpro, some good painting programs and a good modeling engine.

The game we are trying to make is a 2d space rpg which was the original plan but then we thought we might have a go at an mmo but it is now back to an rpg. The game has many races all of which are going to be playable. The game is non-linear, the idea of the game is just to develop and have fun and exciting adventures. The game will be played over the whole milkyway and will have mini-storys which will make the game interesting and different, they are supposed to be like an episode of star trek.
For instance you arrive in a new system and suddenly your tactical officer is beamed off your ship by teleport. You scan and find a ship they say they want to make you pay. You can deal with it in many ways. If you decide to attack their ship then they will kill your officer and become pirates in and around that system. If you peacefully negociate then you get your officer back and they become a friendly faction in that system.

If you have any ideas then please tell me.
TheConnorian
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 17:09 Edited at: 6th Apr 2010 17:54
by the way attila thanks for the guide.
KISTech
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 18:10
..in the mean time, you can come check out my space MORPG. (NOTE: NOT massive)

It's been my sole purpose in life for the last 4 years. Although I had the opposite problem as you. I've been a programmer for 20+ years, but for some reason can't model to save my life. Just not wired for it I guess. This year I managed to get my hands on a couple of good artists, and learn to make some of the textures myself. The game is now in Alpha testing.

If you would like to check it out, maybe it will give you some ideas.

http://www.worldsapartonline.net

TheConnorian
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 19:26
KISTech youve done really well with this and i look forward to seeing your game develop, by the way do you have models or sketches of your aleins or have alein ideas you threw away because i have only thought up 8 races including humans. I have signed up to your website.
DVader
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 20:32
What do you mean 2D space RPG? Are you making it viewed from inside the ship with sprites of your officers and such or having an outside view? I know it may sound daunting, but I would go for the 3D route for visualising the location. Elite was the hit it was because it was 3d and offered open ended game play. It is easier than you think to make a nice looking space scene in 3d, a nice starfield on a cube or sphere looks good for the backdrop, then add in a few different sized textured spheres for planets etc.
I would think 8 races is enough, you can always have different factions within each race if you want more options. I mean take us humans for example, we live on one planet, but are hardly a united peaceful lot. You may imagine that would go out the window if we met alien life, but chances are it would take some time for that to happen. The same could probably apply to your aliens.
Anyway, don't forget the red shirt for the unlucky men who are about to die lol.

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
TheConnorian
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 21:56
DVader i know 3d is emense but 2d done well is just as emersing and interesting. And i think the image you have in your head is a pixelated game that would ruin the gameplay but no im going to be doing some nice high res pictures for spaceships. But i do agree with you 8 would seem enough but because i haven't explained it properly it sounds a bit silly. When i said 8 only 4 of these are playable, and 1 of the non-playables is a rogue human faction. And the red shirts there will be plenty especially if we include ground combat. By the way the attached photo is not my work but the style i will attempt, it shows what 2d art can do. http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/ is the artists website. He also inspired me to make this type of game.
KISTech
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 22:57
Once you download the game and create a character, you'll see the sketches for the races. The artist I have is working on the ships right now.

I have 3 races, which for multipalyer anything seems enough to me. The number of variables and database tables involved is astonishing...

TheConnorian
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 23:26
thanks KISTech i am just about to play your game now looks good so far.
Attila
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Posted: 7th Apr 2010 09:46
Did you try the tutorial?
TheConnorian
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Posted: 7th Apr 2010 12:53
By the way ive been talking with my brother and he says that we should do 3d. I need second opinion(s) because i don't know which to do. And attila yes i tried the tutorial not the most addictive game but it was sucessful.
Van B
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Posted: 7th Apr 2010 13:40 Edited at: 7th Apr 2010 15:43
If your bro can make nice looking ship and race models, then I would agree, but with 2D, people who play those games don't expect or demand amazing graphics. It would make a distinct difference to everything. I mean, a 2D space strategy game is all about strategy, a 3D space strategy game has to be pretty too.

Personally I never got into the idea of 2D space, it should always appear 3D, so if you go for 2D - use parallax starfields and stuff to bring it out.

To make it 3D, you'd have to know 3D positioning and rotation inside and out - but it is quite easy to get up and running in 3D. I would consider making a 2D overview, like galaxy map, position of ships etc - then have combat done in 3D. I guess it all depends on what you want to do, the strategy gameplay itself will probably be more complex than the game engine, so I would experiment and see what you can come up with.
Maybe make a test engine for 2D and 3D, and see which one has the better feel to it.

Might be interesting to have a 3D turn based combat system - I think that would work pretty well, select what to do with your turn - move to another position, charge shields, fire weapons at targets, or warp the hell out of there. I played a turn based game on the DS a while ago which had this neat idea - what they did was released the turn based aspect when all the enemies are done. You would kill everything, then be left alone to quickly scoop up any treasure. Not sure how Final Fantasy that would end up - but I can imagine getting very tactical, surveying the battleground and deciding on strategies. This makes for easier AI, less of a concern for speed too.

One thing that annoys me with turn based games, is how often you have to tell a unit to move, if you want a ship to go somewhere, it should just keep going when it has a turn, like set the destinations and let the ships get on with getting there - while maybe your main battleship attacks - flanking, distractions, evasion. The more possibilities you afford the player, the more they will feel like they are in control.

I know one thing, comparing 2D to 3D - 3D is immersive. If you made it 3D, then you'll have much more fun developing it. It's really quite a cool thing to make your own environment and then explore it, and it's much more rewarding to fly around and with your teams creations.

I think 3D is the way to go but it depends on how you want your game to play. 2D can allow for really clear navigation, but 3D combat is so much cooler, and I think new teams need 'cooler' things to keep them interested. Know what I mean with that? - ideally your bro will be coming up with ideas all the time for ships and races and stuff like that - in 3D it's ideal, in 2D it's a little bit of a letdown. Spend a lot of time developing a ship design, just to have it shrunk down to a 32x32 sprite is not very inspiring - seeing a fleet of your ships fly by is pure inspiration for your team in comparison.

Epic just does not fit into 2D, and DBPro has a track record of making epic space games in 3D - just look at Starwraith series, and Dark Coders space game which won the last major TGC competition. You guys should have some serious brain-storm meetings, take lots of paper and each of you explain how you'd like the game to be played, then see what can be used from all the ideas. If you know what you need, you can research it and ask here for advice or even examples. Having a solid plan makes a project much much more likely to succeed and is vital in a team effort.


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TheConnorian
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Posted: 7th Apr 2010 16:08
Van B thanks to your post we are going to do 3d. The 3d may be more difficult to make but its going to look amazing. We can't have the whole milkyway now but we can have a small piece of it. We will post a ship model in a while. So below is a list of what we need to complete. If we missed anything just say.

Races:half of the planning done
Ships:nothing
Space:nothing
Storylines:only a few done
Addons:little bit of planning done
Attila
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 18:40 Edited at: 8th Apr 2010 18:41
Quote: "And attila yes i tried the tutorial not the most addictive game but it was successful. "

ha ha, never thought to be addictive

It was thought to help you, to learn some simple commands. Its up to you, to create the addictive game, the tutorial is made to learn the necessary commands.

From your first question, I thought you did not know DarkBasic and I wanted to help you, to see the language and the possibilities it offers.
TheConnorian
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 23:46
I knew how to type in the stuff just not the order to type them in. By the way Ive hit a stop do you think i should do an EVE and have only humans which is much more realistic and beleivable or go alein crazy.
Indicium
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 23:57 Edited at: 9th Apr 2010 00:00
It's your story. I don't see why games should have to be realistic.

BTW, we're working on very similar projects, if you have an IM you can add me

karljacques95*@*msn<dot>com

Obviously remove the stars and put the dot in

Rawwrr. Sig Fail.
Van B
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 00:22
I think people who play games like this like to identify with a race that they like, rather than the somewhat stale human race.

Consider World Of Warcraft, most people choose a race that suits their character, personally human is the last race I would choose, and I don't mean that in any social disorder sort of way .

I think you'd be daft to pass up the chance, and your teams, to create your own alien races, I'm sure you'd regret just having humans. Maybe it would be an idea to go for a Star Trek style, where the aliens are all mostly humanoid - so it's not a huge stretch to draw them. I think that's a good middle ground, have Star Trek style aliens, makes sense to please that fan base I think. Ridges on foreheads, weird skin colours and textures. It's much easier to design space ships I think, everyone has a cool idea or 10 for a space ship.

I agree with Mad, I prefer to make unrealistic games, it's just less stressful to let things develop naturally. If you don't have a lot of physics knowledge, then experiment, learn the cheap and cheerful methods that game coding relies on. Physics experiment games are so 2008, but pleasing gameplay will always be popular. There's no such thing as efficient space travel, you have to invent that and everything else, I suggest you think about ways to make your jobs easier. Well organised systems are vital in complex strategy games, I would outline what you need to support your races - what models and 2D work do you need. Try and standardize things, then it's no biggie to add different media, it's mostly the fun part of modelling and texturing - you just have to plan the data, media, and code well enough.

Really I think this type of project can evolve quite easily, start off with the basics and build on it, because if you stop and think about the complexity that could be the finished game, it's pretty daunting. There's a lot that can be done with simple tokenizing and parsing, use setup files for your media and data, then it's possible to pass that work onto other people, let them administer their own work with scripts. This can let them test their work themselves without touching code. There are some excellent scripting tutorials about, it's definitely something I'd be looking into early in development - after maybe making some test code for 3D flight, gui's, whatever you need. It's best to code anything again from scratch I find.


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KISTech
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 17:57
Also, write your code in modules. Have a set of global variables that carry all the relevant data needed by all the modules. Then in each module you can use local variables to manipulate the data in the globals.

That makes it easy to rewrite your code one module at a time, without having to worry to much about the impact on the rest of the program.

It will also help you keep your global variable space to a minimum. Once you start writing an MMOG you start to realize just how much data is involved. It can be daunting, but it is possible with DBPro.

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