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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Is this piracy?

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xgcell
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Posted: 11th Apr 2010 23:48
I have fpsc, and my friend wants to know if i could come over to his house and install it on his comp. Is this piracy?

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Bootlicker
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Posted: 11th Apr 2010 23:49
I'm not really sure, I would personally say yes as its sharing files.

A.K.A file sharing, which is illegal
xgcell
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Posted: 11th Apr 2010 23:53
yeah it confused me because if you install it on one computer and two people use that computer, its not illegal so i didnt know about this.

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Bootlicker
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 00:01 Edited at: 12th Apr 2010 00:34
I'm no law expert, yet if your friend didnt download it off the internet and lets say he bought it off you for lets say a 'hug'. Then he installed it and then decided to sell it again. So you gave him back his hug and got it back. Therefore its on both computers.

If that makes sense.

NO; it doesn't, either does you example I've removed. Slapped for 6 days.
xgcell
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 00:05
generally i was just curious, and i have a guilty conscience XD so if it wasnt cleared up i would of felt like crap

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Crazy Acorn
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 00:19
Well yes it would be Piracy because you are giving it to someone that didnt buy it. You bought it right? He needs to buy it if he wants it. I let my family use it. But only in my household.

- Gorlock
SamK
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 00:23
Yup it is the same as piracy. That is no different than installing Bad Company 2 on your firends computer so he can play it for free without buying it.

99% of the time it is in the end user agreement or TOS that you will not in any way distrubute the product "you" purchased.
Urlforce Studios
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 00:28
Bootlicker... Wow. Really? A hug? Software these days come with a license or "key" generally meant for 1 user/computer's use.

The example Bootlicker provided is an example of piracy no matter how you look at it. Thanks Bootlicker, sharing this "method" you've outed yourself, to me at least to your status as a pirate, provided you've done this "hugging" thing before. Do not follow his idea.
If the single copy of FPSC exists and is run on more than 1 computer that is not your own personal property it is considered piracy.

Hugging your friend while retaining a copy of the registered software on each person's computer is abusing your FPSC license and The Game Creators can rightfully disable your key as well as earn you a ban here.

Piracy is serious. You cannot think that there are ways to sneak around license agreements (I hope you read yours Bootlicker) without repercussions.

Pirating like this and advocating the use of such tactics makes me sick and I must say I have lost respect for any developer who does this. They are hurting FPSC's development and make people such as I embarassed to share this forum with them.

Bootlicker
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 00:31
No, I have never done that before. I was just shooting ideas. And I suppose that hypothetically you can sell second hand items for whatever price you want. If that price is a hug that is upto the seller. The big company has brought in its revenue from the original sale so it doesnt matter what the second hand price is...
KeithC
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 00:36
Quote: "The big company has brought in its revenue from the original sale so it doesnt matter what the second hand price is... "


Yes, actually; it does. You have made money off of a product that was not yours to sell, unless you've got specific resale rights from the company itself. TGC is not a big company.

To the original poster...yes, this is considered piracy. I suggest you don't do it, else there will be consequences.

-Keith
Bootlicker
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 00:38
Just for arguements sake here, it would matter if you bought a game off of ebay for £0.01?

Quote: "unless you've got specific resale rights"


Just reread that. So does that mean that you cant even sell games on ebay, auctions or carboot sales?
JLMoondog
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 00:38
I've heard KeithC has attack poodles...I'd listen to him.


bond1
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 00:52 Edited at: 12th Apr 2010 01:00
Is there a reason your friend doesn't want to buy it for himself? He could could try it out over at your house, or just download the free version.

To be honest, I'm surprised this is even a question. I guess it goes to show that maybe young people really DON'T know what piracy is.

But then again, when I was a kid, how many times did me and my friends pass around copies of cassette tapes that we had bought. So who am I to talk.

----------------------------------------
"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
xgcell
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 01:01
well he has been using it with me at my house. he doesnt have the money to buy it. we dont have jobs yet just highschool kids. and thanks i wont "redistribute" it as you call it. Don't want to get mauled. I heard those poodles are from the Serengeti.

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ultraplex
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 01:31
lmao

Aye me hearties hoist the jolly roger
KeithC
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 01:55
Quote: "well he has been using it with me at my house. he doesnt have the money to buy it."


That is fine. I suggest he download the Free Version for use at his house/computer, then take maps to your house/computer to have you build them. Then he can see what he's built.

-Keith
JLMoondog
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 02:59
In my free version the only thing you can't do is build final game. If he can show something that looks and plays good, I'm sure his parents would be impressed enough to spend 20 bucks for the Build Addon from the tgc store.


Les Horribres
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 04:16
In general, software licenses only extend to the immediate members of the same biological family. Corporate licenses extend to the confines of the buisness...

Since FPSC only allows one license per computer you can only have it installed on one computer. But if it were to allow two, then you can only install it on a second computer used by a family member who lives with you.

You'd only have to worry about a corporate license if your parents worked for a buisness that had a license to put FPSC on its machines. The implications are that since you are not an employee of the company, you are not allowed to have their key on your computer.




@Bootlicker:
That is a common argument from pirates. Here is the common defense.
You actually don't own your car. You own a license to drive said car. Without your registration, you'd be guilty of grand theft auto, were the car reported stolen.

Now you have every right to relicense FPSC. You can uninstall the program and hand your "license" over. Just as you can relicense anything that you own... but you cannot copy said license. Giving someone your product key without fully removing said product from your computer is copying a license.




@bond1:
Piracy is very hazy stuff... there is so much misinformation floating about (most, of which, doesn't really make it right, but makes it less wrong) that people are bound to get confused.
And then there is the psychological component. People pirate because they become addicted to piracy (seriously, I think I could pull a few studies as well) and grow a psychological dependency on pirating.
In some cases, it may not be as much a dependency, but a misappreciation of worth. Given they can obtain something for free by illicit means, they no longer view it being worth the costs that they'd otherwise pay (thus leading into the circular argument "I pirate because I wouldn't pay otherwise")


But actually, what facinates me right now, is how very open you are all about piracy. One of the best ways to cure someone of an addiction is to expose the addiction... and punish it.

Its not who you are or what you've done... its WHY you did it and how far you are willing to go.
If you fear speaking for yourself, make use the words of others while discovering your own voice.
xgcell
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 05:39
i think we will just continue what we been doing, as the free version doesnt let you use shaders and games just look so much better with them lol.

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nikas
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 11:11
wtf?I run fpsc in 3 computers in my house...i only had i purchased....so i am a pirate???Even if so....there was not any consequences for this.....and then i installed it at my jobs computer again....Isit supposed that i am a pirate?

Silent Sniper
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 11:42
No it's not piracy because you are using that one copy for yourself.
Bigsnake
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 11:46
Quote: "wtf?I run fpsc in 3 computers in my house...i only had i purchased....so i am a pirate???"


No cause Lee says you can use FPSC on as many PC's as you like in your own home.

What is a little confusing is most people here seems to think that piracy isn't just downloading software illegally but giving your friend the game/software. Basicly it isn't rly illegal because your just sharing it with your friends. It's when you start burning off copies onto another CD and then selling them it starts getting bad. If you have pirated FPSC then sold it to your freind/gave it to your freind then that is illegal. If you just give it as a gift but you still use it then it's not rly illegal.



Just my opinion....

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Cloner
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 11:59 Edited at: 12th Apr 2010 12:06
Ultimately it is your own morality, and whether you want your own work and time to be valued. Whatever you do comes back at you.

Artists started giving away models free to gain popularity and acceptance. It ended up in creating a culture of freebiehunters to whom only "free" is acceptable. It is the Artist or the Game maker who is hurt in the long run. He/she made his/her labor freely available. Crying over the lack of saleability of own work and poor market price won't remedy the situation.

When small companies like TGC create things "free" they offer versions which are less than full. They are meant to give a good taste of what you can expect and work in the nature of a sample. TGC module is better in this respect since most other companies give evaluation versions that usually expire within a month. And now you can even get a free version of DBPro.It is my personal opinion that those who continue to use the "free" version for years, are doing so because they are not serious about the software. Twenty dollars is not a huge sum.

As far as Bond1 said about the casettes, if we take the opposite argument to its fruition then everybody would be in jail. Why, I have rarely met an educated person who has never shared or passed around a book or novel they liked. However, doing so, actually breaks the licenses and copyrights, for people who did not pay for the books are reading the books and receiving the same enjoyment that the purchaser did. So, the author is losing his royalty and the publisher, his sale. Libraries are a form of institutionalized and socially approved method of mass copyright infringement.

The culture of piracy is most disturbingly encouraged in modern days even by companies themselves.

I know of quite a few software, where the companies themselves upload torrent packages of their software to different websites which give illegal downloads. They do this to increase the popularity of their software.

Since forbidden fruit is sweeter there are many who go for those torrents and do not download demo versions. Only, every thing is tracked. There have also been instances of bestselling authors in the US going to jail because they themselves were helping the piracy of their books in a bid to increase popularity. Of course, the Publisher got hurt, sued, and won compensation.

There are no Attack Poodles capable enough to monitor the internet and the digital world. Even big companies like Autodesk who actually, keep teams of "Attack Poodles" come up short in many cases. It is not possible to send potential customers to jail. If somebody liked a pirated software, and found that they need it in their work pipeline, then today or tomorrow they will buy the software. Software has a long learning curve, and many people stick knowingly with inferior software because they do not have time to spend learning a superior software, even if free.

My respect to the person who made this post for being both brave and honest. You can always find ways to work around the law, but you can never work around your conscience or the consequences. If sharing devalues a product, and you start the cycle, then tomorrow whatever you create with that product will also fail to find its proper value. This I have seen.

Regards
Cloner

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Benjamin
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 12:30
I'm not sure how relevant this is since the video is a little old and I don't follow FPSC so much, but this video details both free versions of FPSC and how to get them.

Quote: "But actually, what facinates me right now, is how very open you are all about piracy. One of the best ways to cure someone of an addiction is to expose the addiction... and punish it."


Sounds totally reasonable; punish those who are honest about their ignorance instead of trying to cure it.
creator of zombies
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 12:32 Edited at: 12th Apr 2010 12:33
I agree with cloner on this one. The whole prospect of burning off software to a CD and giving it to your best mate, providing you don't sell it, in my eyes isn't pircay. For example, take Call of Duty 4. When it was first released, one of my mates went and bought it. Then, because we were all so taken by the game, he burnt each of us a copy, so we could then install it on our computers. I then asked myself this: "Do I care that infinity ward has just lost about £100 (£30 per game)" Answer No. "Why don't I care?" Answer: Because they are a multimillion pound company that earn millions in sales each year, and frankly £100 is no skin off their nose.
Of course I buy some of my games if I feel that they are worth the outlay, or I have the money to buy them, but if someone I know has the game, or is willing to give me a copy, I will always take the first route. Looking back, I can only think of a few games (FPSC) being one of them, that I actually bought and didnt borrow or download etc. At the end of the day, I will openly admit that if the FPSC model packs weren't as cheap as they are, or if it wasnt for the fact that I'm supporting indie developers like myself (that's a different matter), and was offered a free copy of all the model packs, I would most probably take them. I'm aware that for most indie developers their model packs etc fund most of their living, so I always do my best to support the scene by buying their work; but if bond1 for example, worked for EA, and he turned over thousands each year, then I probably wouldn't care if I downloaded his work for free or not.
On the flip side, If I found out that somone was pirating my shader packs, games, or media etc, I can honestly say I wouldn't care, and I would actually be pleased that my work is worth pirating. I wouldn't try to stop it because I know that it's part of internet life, and If I was in their position, I may or may not of done the same thing myself.

CoZ

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A r e n a s
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 14:23 Edited at: 12th Apr 2010 14:25
Well, free packs COZ... Can you pirate your own packs to me in the form of an email to prove your point (seriously could you send me links to where I can purchase your shader packs cause I would really like to buy them My email address is attached)


I do disagree with pirating any from of TGC material as I know more closely the creators of the material then I do any other massive games company. I have an annoying load of guilt if I were to do so, so I don't , Not to mention its breaking the rules

KeithC
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 16:27
Quote: "I run fpsc in 3 computers in my house...i only had i purchased....so i am a pirate?"

No; so long as you are the one to use it.

Quote: "If you just give it as a gift but you still use it then it's not really illegal."

That is totally incorrect; just ask the former winner of the VBOTB about that: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=167515&b=21

This is an interesting topic, so I encourage more to post their thoughts on it....as long as no actual links or methods about piracy or pirated material are displayed.

-Keith
Cloner
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 17:16
Just dropping in between work.
As I said it is our morality and conscience that rules, for piracy devalues labor, but is difficult to prevent. The community must give consent to stand together against piracy, and only then something might happen, but nothing can be done without consent.

It is difficult to monitor a global community subject to various lex loci (eh laws of the land).

However, there is some good news about your country "creator of zombies," the Digital Economy Bill has just been approved by the House of Commons and will become law though it may take another year for full implementation. It clamps down hard on piracy.

And that means companies, surreptitously promoting piracy to popularize their own products are also going to face the music.

In short the key points of the Digital Economy Bill includes:

1. Those suspected of illegal downloading shall be issued letters from their ISP regarding their illegal activities

2. Copyright owners will be allowed to ask courts to order ISPs to reveal the names and addresses of illegal file-sharers so legal action can be initiated.

3.Repeated offenders can face technical measures including temporary ban from the internet.

4. Courts will be able to order ISPs to block websites offering copyright infringing content.


It will be interesting to watch the next years.

Regards
Cloner

Still moving in circles.
KeithC
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 17:18
That would be interesting to just ban access to the Pirate Bay instead.

-Keith
Benjamin
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 19:31
Quote: "That would be interesting to just ban access to the Pirate Bay instead."


Some ISP's do this, but it's not very effective since you can just use a proxy.
KeithC
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 20:02
Quote: "Some ISP's do this, but it's not very effective since you can just use a proxy. "

True; but I'd take what I could get.

-Keith
BlackFox
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Posted: 12th Apr 2010 20:14
Definition of Software Piracy-

The unauthorized copying of software. Most retail programs are licensed for use at just one computer site or for use by only one user at any time. By buying the software, you become a licensed user rather than an owner (see the EULA that usually comes with said software). You are allowed to make copies of the program for backup purposes, but it is against the law to give copies to friends and colleagues.

In other words, there is no gray area, no matter how you explain it.

Quote: "As I said it is our morality and conscience that rules, for piracy devalues labor, but is difficult to prevent. The community must give consent to stand together against piracy, and only then something might happen, but nothing can be done without consent."


At the end of the day, it's up to the individual to determine if they can accept their choice to pirate software. And it does not just apply to software. You have the same issue with music, videos, etc. Our actions determine the morals and character that form each one of us.

Mike

Plystire
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Posted: 13th Apr 2010 01:03
Morals? Seriously? This isn't about morals. This is about "Would it be easier for me to pay money for this, then wait for it to arrive... or spend my money on some pizza and eat that while I wait for my buddy's copy to download?" as well as "Will I get caught?" And more often than not, the answer will be "no" to the latter question, especially if they're not those stupid "email pirates".

Piracy is not about asking yourself "Will I accept the fact that what I am about to do would be considered morally wrong in the eyes of my peers?" it is about asking whether or not it is easier. And guess what many people choose to do at the end of the day? They're lazy and they want a copy for as little effort as they can get it.


NOTE: The above statements are in regards to pirating software as a whole. The story changes (not by much, but it does) when it comes down to real world pirating.

Listen, take it from the guy whose brother has pirated more material than I've ever actually owned. Thankfully, he doesn't live with me anymore.


The one and only,


Aaagreen
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Posted: 13th Apr 2010 01:08 Edited at: 13th Apr 2010 01:10
Quote: "creator of zombies"


So, hows about this.

If I bought a game new from gamestation, sold it on ebay then pirated it, is that wrong? It means the developer gets all the money they deserve from the gamestation purchase, but you still get the game for much cheaper.

And if I pirated Duke Nukem 3D, because the developer is bankrupt and it is no longer being sold new which means the publisher has already made all their money from it?

I only get my games on Steam. And I own the Duke Nukem 3d Kill-a-ton collection (awesome, and probably pretty rare now)


Piracy is an interesting subject, and it's interesting to see what the majority of a large community thinks.


Quote: "especially if they're not those stupid "email pirates"."


Or if their thick enough to join the original "Isohunt" or whatever group(s) on Facebook. 128,614 people are pretty much shouting "I'M A PIRATE, FINE MEEEEEE"

Your signature has been erased by a mod - Please reduce it to 600x120 maximum size
Plystire
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Posted: 13th Apr 2010 01:23
Quote: "If I bought a game new from gamestation, sold it on ebay then pirated it, is that wrong?"


Yes. The moment you sell your game, you legally relinquish your right to use it. So keeping a copy of it... or "finding" a new copy, is wrong... in fact, it is piracy.


The one and only,


BlackFox
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Posted: 13th Apr 2010 01:44 Edited at: 13th Apr 2010 01:44
That's the beauty of living in today's world, yes? Some have their view of piracy; we have ours. You may not agree with the moral side of it, and that's your right to do so. There may be some of us that have been around a bit longer that might see it differently than others. To some of us, it does have to do with morals and values- two things that do shape us as we supposedly grow up and mature. How others look at it does not make or break us, and no matter how people want to try and offer some "explanation", it does boil down to one thing. If one is willing to find or seek a gray area to something such as pirating software, then one might ask what moral ground they do stand on. If one is willing to break the law to obtain software illegally, what else can they be persuaded to do that would go against their morals or standards.

Besides, I was only responding to KeithC's post:

Quote: "This is an interesting topic, so I encourage more to post their thoughts on it"


Personally, we don't like piracy- period. Why? Because as a company entity both my wife and I have spent a lot of our money to get the systems and software we need to be where we are now. We know from experience and knowledge that this has been, and will be an issue for a long time. We have also spend a large amount of money to get sites shut down- even sites that held Project Blue when we were handed the project to manage. Where we currently stand, and what we do for a living, there is no gray area as I said earlier. We don't get the luxury of choosing to "obtain a copy because I'm impatient or want to buy a pizza knowing I can download it".

Shadowtroid
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Posted: 13th Apr 2010 01:58
@Blackfox (And...well, everyone I guess)

I agree. While I feel a bit more inclined to try and change ones ways (guess how that turns out) you can't really change peoples opinions. Same with (and please do not discuss these) religion, government, stance on XBOX 360 vs. PS3, etc. etc...No matter how much you protest, you can only change minds on very rare occasions. And if you do change someone's mind, in my opinion, you might want to worry about them standing by you.

Woolfman
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Posted: 13th Apr 2010 02:36
Really? This subject is kind of getting beat to death. Besides there is a thread talking about piracy and hasn't the original question been answered.

But it doesn't even matter what I or anyone else thinks on thes forums anyways. So everyone's opinion so pretty useless. At least around here.

What is that Mods favorite rule they love to use. AUP 3.1415926 at the mods discretion whatever, whatever, whatever. It doesn't matter what you say it's what I think that goes.
Shadowtroid
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Posted: 13th Apr 2010 03:05
Quote: "What is that Mods favorite rule they love to use. AUP 3.1415926 at the mods discretion whatever, whatever, whatever."


What are you talking about?

The mods are very kind, they just follow the rules. They do not tolerate piracy. Is that a bad thing? It's only illegal, it's not a big deal...Seriously. Piracy is a bad thing. And they plan to deal with it.

They cannot stop it...But if you can hinder it, isn't that all you can do? And isn't that a good thing to do?

Bigsnake
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Posted: 13th Apr 2010 03:12
I read this article about the UK government blocking all sites with piracy on but it's not rly useful as people will just make more and more and more sites. You should see the list that was blocked though. It's too long for me to say as it will waste a 1/4 of the page at least

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 13th Apr 2010 03:33
If it costs money (not free) then anything other than paying for it is Piracy.

Stealing = Piracy
Lending = Piracy
Borrowing = Piracy
Thinking about stealing, lending, or borrowing = Piracy
Selling more than the one copy that you bought = Piracy
Retaining a copy after you sell the copy that you bought = Piracy
Dreaming about the game before you buy it = Piracy
CoZ = Piracy

Quote: "I have fpsc, and my friend wants to know if i could come over to his house and install it on his comp. Is this piracy?"


YES!

That scenario is the most common form of software piracy.

   Conjured Entertainment

 WARNING: Intense Madness
xgcell
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Posted: 13th Apr 2010 03:55
thanks guys, you really helped me clear this up i didnt expect this many people to care about my question lol.

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Toasty Fresh
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Location: In my office, making poly-eating models.
Posted: 13th Apr 2010 05:28
Quote: "In short the key points of the Digital Economy Bill includes:

1. Those suspected of illegal downloading shall be issued letters from their ISP regarding their illegal activities

2. Copyright owners will be allowed to ask courts to order ISPs to reveal the names and addresses of illegal file-sharers so legal action can be initiated.

3.Repeated offenders can face technical measures including temporary ban from the internet.

4. Courts will be able to order ISPs to block websites offering copyright infringing content.
"


Well that kind of sucks. Not for me since I'm not a flaming pirate, but seriously, roughly 75% of my school has pirated something before, roughly 40% have pirated full games, movies, etc. repeatedly. So they're all gonna get into a load of trouble?
Plystire
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Feb 2003
Location: Staring into the digital ether
Posted: 13th Apr 2010 05:32
No problem, xgcell. You'll find that piracy is a... tender subject on these boards.


@Blackfox:

I completely agree with you. While some value morals over laziness, others do not and it is their choice to do so. Sad, but true.


No matter what you say or do, it all boils down to whether or not the person you're speaking to is willing to take your view into account. It is sad, though, that more often than not, people are simply not willing to change themselves because of another person's viewpoint. Call it ego or flat out stubborness, many people just can't bring themselves to admit that they are wrong, no matter what the evidence shows.

Free will is humanity's greatest ability, and its greatest flaw.


The one and only,


KeithC
Senior Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Oct 2005
Location: Michigan
Posted: 13th Apr 2010 05:53
Quote: "It doesn't matter what you say it's what I think that goes."

Totally not true; if it were that way, then I could just Nuke your account and erase your very existence on these boards...on a whim.

Quote: "So they're all gonna get into a load of trouble? "

Maybe they shouldn't have took part in illegal activity then? They knew it was wrong, but thought they would never get caught.

-Keith
xgcell
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th Nov 2008
Location: Internet
Posted: 13th Apr 2010 07:18
@ plystire

i see that...better a tender subject than an neglected one

Join us, for we are many.
Woolfman
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 19th Sep 2007
Location: Cave
Posted: 13th Apr 2010 07:24
Do what you want Cheif, nobody's stopping you.

I'm just repeating what I've been told by another Mod about opinion around here.
Cloner
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 17th Mar 2010
Location:
Posted: 13th Apr 2010 08:43
And nobody else is going to bear the consequences of your action - either legal, or moral.

Still moving in circles.
Thraxas
Retired Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Feb 2006
Location: The Avenging Axe, Turai
Posted: 13th Apr 2010 09:19
Quote: "What is that Mods favorite rule they love to use. AUP 3.1415926 at the mods discretion whatever, whatever, whatever. It doesn't matter what you say it's what I think that goes.
"


The rule that you misquote has nothing to do with what we think. It's there because people break rules which are not explicitly stated, and then cry about being moderated. "Show me the rule I broke in the AUP." is the catch-cry of these people. They KNOW they shouldn't have posted what they posted but because it isn't put explicitly in the AUP they think they found a loophole. Well no you haven't because we can use our judgement.

This is a big BIG bugbear of mine. Some people seem to think that we make decisions on a whim, and have no accountability. Moderator decisions are discussed, sometimes at length, in the mods lounge. If other mods disagreed with a decision I made because they thought I was being unfair it would be overturned. We don't always agree on everything.

Also I, and all the other mods, spend lots of our time trying to keep things in order here. Sometimes we do stop discussions before they have a chance to get out of hand. Other times like now things get left often for discussion. Either way we get criticised for it!


Your signature has been [mod edited] :-p
JLMoondog
Moderator
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Jan 2009
Location: Paradox
Posted: 13th Apr 2010 09:47
Quote: "Either way we get criticised for it!"


Don't worry, in 50 years they'll erect a statue to the lot of you after realizing your greatness. Isn't that the average time allowed to recognize achievements?


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