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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Which is easier?

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Gadget
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Posted: 1st Jul 2010 11:20
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Hello all,

I am looking at making a 2D game that would be of the original Zelda board. In doing animations for things like the angle of people walking around would it be easier to program in a 3d object or a 2d sprite with all the angles? I like sprites more just because I'm fond of the cartoony look, but in my mind 3D would be easier if you don't have to program the angles to show. Of course I am assuming you can put 3D objects into a 2D game.

Gadget

P.S. I posted this in the 2D forums but after many hours of no movement and very few views I figured I would try here. Thanks.
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Van B
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Posted: 1st Jul 2010 12:17 Edited at: 1st Jul 2010 12:52
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Well really I think that a 3D model is a good idea, even if you are using sprites. Make a reasonable 3D model of your character and animate him, then render it as sprites. You could of course manually edit after rendering to neaten things up, render at double the resolution you need, then rescale to get nice AA around the edges.

I dread animating 2D stuff. 3D objects in a 2D game is certainly a good option for DBPro too, I do that quite a lot in my projects, remake old 2D games in 2.5D, using models and 3D meshes, but in a 2D environment coordinates wise. With a zelda game, I personally would be tempted to go for a DS style, like the DS version of Zelda, traditional top down 2D game, but with 3D visuals. Link looks good in low poly 3D.

What would concern me is quality, most people can't draw good 2D tilesets, it's a real skill - although I don't know how your skills are, I can only go with my own thoughts, and for me, 2.5D is the only way. There are a lot of overheads in 2D with a zelda game, like Z-depth sorting, which can really drag things down. With 3D, there are less concerns, it's quicker to create the media, the media works better, you won't have to work like a dog just to get a basic scene together. I guess it's similar to Animal Crossing DS as well, that works really well too.

I would go for a 3D environment with 3D characters and 2D sprites, with a fixed camera you can use flat plains as sprites. So really you get the best of both worlds I think:



See the characters and level are 3D objects, low poly - but those bushes, collectables, those are 2D plains. With that, you get an inviting game, it's accessible and quick - just looking at that you know that you can run around slashing up bushes and grabbing diamonds, no clunky collision detection or complex controls. It just makes sense IMO - 2D bushes means they can have leaf particles flying around if you want, collectables can shimmer or shine or whatever you like - all fairly difficult to replicate in 3D. If I was making a top down RPG style game, that's what I'd go for without thinking twice - best of both all the way.


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luskos
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2010 00:53
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Some people actually do create 3D model then load it in all possible angles which it would need if it was only 2D and make a snapshots then animated sprite, it`s gonna look very nice made that way..

Coding is My Kung Fu!
And My Kung Fu is better than Yours!
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Gadget
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2010 01:00
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Those are great points Van B, I definately appreciate your imput and and will put it into practice. Would creating a 3D world be the same as creating a 2D map in that you want to make a map making program and then create the maps through it or is there another direction I should go? Many of the things you mentioned are over my head at the moment but I'm up to the challenge to figure it out. Any tips anyone can give me to get me started would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

Gadget
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Van B
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2010 01:54
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I usually just make 'brushes', like a boulder platform mesh, then have an editor to position them, maybe on a set grid to make your life easier. Of course the brushes could be any size, and you could also rotate them etc but that might make collision detection more difficult, so bare that in mind and try and make brushes that you can re-use. I would take Zelda DS as an example, the hill area in that screenshot is probably made on a grid, with square edges, then at the back right theres a diagonal bit. This level of detail means that those are basically primitives.

In a 2.5d game I made recently, I made brick walls but kept the bricks solid, so most blocks would have a brick jutting out - sometimes it's best to make blocks as a set, have them use the same texture, maybe even keep them as a single object with multiple limbs. It makes modelling much easier, making a little wall then breaking it up into chunks, so it allows all sorts of different walls to be made. Keeping things low poly is a good idea, aesthetically too, a lot of detail at that viewpoint can be wasted, I think it's better to have bold and clear graphics with these games. Go for an interesting graphic style, and it'll be a very fun project, maybe distort proportions a bit, exagerate the important details.

Anyhoo, plough on, and I'll offer advice on anything I can.

One other thing I should have mentioned is traditional matrices. The old fashioned matrix system is ideal for these games, 2D tile set with variable heights if you want them. And it's easy to optimise it to be quick enough. That would be a fast track to getting a scene together, basic matrix editing with the tile set - a complete breeze to put together and a good starting point. Use a standard grid size on the matrix and keep that in the meshes. Then add in object placing and you'll be right on track I think. You might just need a height variable for each object for collision, would give similar collision to Zelda DS. I don't think it would take long at all to put the editor together.

By using a matrix, you have a good 2D footing, it's practically 2D if you want it to be, and I think its good to start with a pleasant task, hopefully you'd enjoy drawing tile sets for it.


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Gadget
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2010 05:05
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Thanks Van B.

Here is kind of where I think we are going with this, so correct me if my course is off a bit.

The game perspective will be exactly like zelda, that is how I was envisioning it. The characters are going to be done in 3D (eventually) to allow more detail. The player-placeable objects will also be done in the 3D for the same reason. The fauna and other environmental objects will be done as 2D sprites.

Sound about right? I don't have an issue doing the 2D sprites, I'm not great at it but I have the desire and patience. I think I need to start with making the map maker so that it can be my launch board. then moving into the basic character behavior. How am I doing so far?

The map maker I want to do something similar to what is in the unfinished 2D tutorial for making a map maker using arrays. I have never tried making a tool to make a game and like the idea, could you give me a nudge in the right direction for how to get started on it please?

Thank you again for the help.

Gadget
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Van B
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2010 09:38
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Actually, I started a little matrix tile editor a few months ago - there's probably not much code, but it would be a good start - only has matrix tile placing and some 3D sprite stuff. I'll take a look at that tonight and see if I can sharpen it up a bit and make it useful.

It's not a good idea to mix sprites with 3D in the normal sense, what I do is use a plain and texture it and orientate it towards the camera. It's basically a sprite, but in a 3D engine, ideal for those little bushes and stuff like that.

Why not post some details about your game, like how big is each area gonna be, as I can then adapt the file saving stuff to suit.


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Gadget
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2010 11:31
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Ok, I had to dig up my notes on the game that made about a year back. I can not realy give you a genre to compare it with so I will give you an over view with some details.

The world will be RTS style using the top down approach but with fixed camera view. It will not be isometric as I have never been fond of angled terrain. The environment will be interactive (not initially though) in that trees can be chopped down and tunnels dug. There will multiple tiles of each: water substance, dirt, grass, thick grass, shrubs, trees, rocks, outcroppings, and ledges.

The characters will be autonomous and not directly controled by the player. So an AI system will have to be made for setting duties and priorities to individual characters. The player is more like a leader and will give duties that need to be done and the appropriate character will fullfill it automatically.

Structures will not be made in the traditional way but rather the play will the walls (actually force fields that act as walls) and add a door to it to make a room. This will give the player the ability to make any size room they want. The environment outside the 'walls' will be hostile for the characters so they will only venture out when needed. The player will have machines built to perform different functions needed by the colony.

I hope this helps out some, if it isn't detailed enough or doesn't make sense (since it's almost 2am here), let me know whatI can clarify. Thanks again.

Gadget
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Van B
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2010 11:38
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That's plenty to go on, the editor I was making has a resolution of 1024x1024 tiles, I'm sure that's the scale at least, it was for a GTA2D thing, so pretty massive. With that resolution there would be no problem having walls the same thickness as tiles.

I will get back to you over the weekend, shouldn't take too long to tidy it up a bit.


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LBFN
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2010 17:16
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Quote: "P.S. I posted this in the 2D forums but after many hours of no movement and very few views I figured I would try here. Thanks."

I did end up responding to your original thread. Real-world jobs can get in the way of forum-time. This board definitely gets more views/responses, so I can see why you re-posted.

Anyway, it sounds like you have a pretty good plan together. It does sound ambitious.

I agree that mixing sprites with 3D in a world setting would be tricky and 3D plains would definitely be the way to go. For this type of game, a matrix should work fine and they are relatively easy to work with.

Van B.: I'm looking forward to seeing the editor that you come up with.

LB


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Van B
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Posted: 12th Jul 2010 16:52
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Hey guys, just digging up this to mention that I haven't abandoned the idea of making a level editor - I'm actually looking at making it a much more encompassing tutorial thing. So it might take a week or two, but it'll be able to do so much more.

Already I have matrix tile editing and object placement on a grid, plus the levels are saved and loaded now. So I want to add slashable objects, like bushes, add a character, and maybe make a little mini game to show how it works.

I'm planning on using the media from Josh's 1000 textures thread...

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=163657&b=3

So this means that someone could take the Obi Wan texture, add in a lightsabre model, and use an animated version of that character to make a jedi game, or spiderman, or anything that anyone adds to that thread could end up in your game. So there might be no end of media that will slot right into this little engine, I can't wait . I will probably try making a zelda character for that model - so will concentrate on cool looking sword swishes, interchangable weapons, firing arrows, throwing, as well as the standard running and jumping anims. I will also add a zombie animation set, so all the other textures can be loaded up and applied, as a little example of enemy handling. Hmmmm, character selection at start, Link, Obi Wan, a Ninja, or a Pirate... can't go far wrong with those!
I will do what I can with add-ons for the character too, like swords of course, throwing weapons, and headwear.


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LBFN
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Posted: 12th Jul 2010 17:44
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Quote: "I can't wait "


Me either. Really looking forward to this.


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