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FPSC Classic Models and Media / Planar Projected Character Shadows - Teaser

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 16th Nov 2010 19:58
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Bond1

I've only just seen this very interesting thread and haven't read through it all so you might have answered this question already.

Do the shadows have hard edges? Some people commented on that early on in the thread but you may have fixed it by now.

If I've understood your method I wonder whether you could use the character's normal vector to soften the shadows around the edges?
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bond1
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Posted: 17th Nov 2010 09:13 Edited at: 17th Nov 2010 09:14
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Quote: "Hey, this last monster is REGENERATOR from Resident Evil 4. You make it very good Bond 1, but why he have nose. And UROBORUS ( from Resident Evil 5 ), two monsters from Dead Space, they are good too, but why you not make your own models, why you make monsters from games, imagine yours, it will be better."


Trust me, no one wants "original" characters. People want enemies that seem familiar to make their "me too" games. And there's nothing wrong with that. Plus it's fun for me to recreate my favorite characters with my own touch and see them come alive in FPSC. I don't win any points for creativity though. Every model pack I release I catch flak for copying popular games out there.

Quote: "Do the shadows have hard edges? "

Yes these are hard-edged shadows projected straight down. I'm afraid it's beyond my understanding on how achieve soft edges using this technique since it's not shadow-map based. Using the normal vector to "smear" the shadow a bit sounds interesting though.

"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 17th Nov 2010 11:52
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Quote: "Using the normal vector to "smear" the shadow a bit sounds interesting though."


If I've understood your technique (I haven't seen the shader) you are rendering the shadow in a second pass in the usual way except that its positioned on (or just above?) the ground and simply coloured with one colour such as black. If you work with the character's normal vector in the light's "view space" then you could try fading the colour according to the dot product of the normal and the light's "view vector" (similar to the method Morcilla and I were using in a discussion of a bloom shader). The idea is that on the edges of the character the normal will be orthogonal to the light's view of the pixel. This "fade factor" could be used to grey the black a bit - or better adjust the alphablending (not sure if that can be used in your case). This will only work with smooth edged objects like spheres and characters not cubes etc.

The main problem I foresee is that this won't be limited to the edges of the silhouette - but how important that is is hard to assess till you try. I guess it all depends on how closely you are watching the shadows when you are trying to stay alive in game.

Another method might be to use an intermediate lower resolution rendertarget for the initial shadow pass and then sample from it in a third final shadow pass - the edges might be automatically softened then.

Not sure at the moment if any of this is feasible.
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bond1
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Posted: 18th Nov 2010 01:21
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Quote: "The main problem I foresee is that this won't be limited to the edges of the silhouette "


Ok now I get what you're saying, and yes I see where this would be a problem, where some inner edges of the model would also pick up the transparency rather than just the silhouette. Alpha blending does indeed work, so the shadow can be semi-transparent. It would be worth playing around with anyhow.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 18th Nov 2010 02:36
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Quote: "yes I see where this would be a problem, where some inner edges of the model would also pick up the transparency rather than just the silhouette"


Yes, that's exactly the problem.

I've got a preliminary version working without the accurate projection that you've used - but you know how to do that anyway.

It might be possible to reduce the "inner" silhouette problem by tinkering with the zwrite states. It works but I'm not sure of side-effects yet.

Anyway, it's late here and I'm in danger of talking garbage. I'll return to this tomorrow.

Quote: "Alpha blending does indeed work, so the shadow can be semi-transparent."


That's good news because that's what I've assumed.
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Marc Steene
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Posted: 18th Nov 2010 13:54
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Quote: "character's normal vector in the light's "view space" then you could try fading the colour according to the dot product of the normal and the light's "view vector"...the normal will be orthogonal to the light's view of the pixel...intermediate lower resolution rendertarget for the initial shadow pass and then sample from it in a third final shadow pass..."


Yes...I agree.


[b]FPSC MIGRATION: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=142497&b=21
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 18th Nov 2010 16:21
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Quote: "Yes...I agree."


Thank goodness for that.
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 19th Nov 2010 17:53 Edited at: 19th Nov 2010 17:53
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bond1

Here's a partial screenshot of one implementation of the normal fading method I described a few posts back. As you can see, it isn't quite what is needed.

Rather than a shadow with soft edges it's more like a ghostly semi-transparent shadow.

Looks like it's back to the drawing board.

At least your hard shadow method works well and efficiently.

I've emailed my demo to you in case you can see a way of fixing it.

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bond1
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Posted: 20th Nov 2010 01:24 Edited at: 20th Nov 2010 01:30
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Thanks man, I'll take a look at the demo sometime next week when I'm off work and back working on this pack.

After reading up more on planar shadows, it seems like the way to fix this "inner shadowing" is to use a stencil buffer - incrementing the stencil buffer's count by each polygon drawn, so only the first projected polygon is drawn, avoiding the overlapping inner polys. Unfortunately, dx9 does not have a hardware stencil buffer, at least I don't think it can be implemented in just HLSL alone. And I don't even know if it's possible in DBPro since I'm not proficient with it.

But anyway, for indoor scenes especially, these hard edged Doom3 style shadows look quite nice as they stand. They might look a bit out of place on outdoor scenes.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 20th Nov 2010 01:49
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Personally I prefer the harder edge shadows like Doom3.

I think these shadows will be just fine for outdoor environments. If we can control the amount of transparency for the shadow you can just make it lighter for outdoor scenes and darker for indoors.

Can't wait for this AMAZING pack to be released.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 20th Nov 2010 03:06
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Quote: "And I don't even know if it's possible in DBPro since I'm not proficient with it."


I think it can - have a look at "stencilshadow.fx" in the folder Dar Basic Professional/Compiler/effects. Spooky posted a demo some time back - it's used by the DBPro set shadow shading on command and works well. If you're interested I'll try to find it and post it for you. I'm not sure whether it works with animations - your method obviously does.

Quote: "incrementing the stencil buffer's count by each polygon drawn, so only the first projected polygon is drawn, avoiding the overlapping inner polys"


Unless you can control the drawing order the first one drawn might not be the one you want.

Quote: "But anyway, for indoor scenes especially, these hard edged Doom3 style shadows look quite nice as they stand. They might look a bit out of place on outdoor scenes."


Quote: "I think these shadows will be just fine for outdoor environments. If we can control the amount of transparency for the shadow you can just make it lighter for outdoor scenes and darker for indoors."


Agreed - but it would be better still if we can find a clean, efficient way of getting soft shadows.
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bond1
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Posted: 21st Nov 2010 01:41
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Quote: "I think it can - have a look at "stencilshadow.fx" in the folder Dar Basic Professional/Compiler/effects."


Ooh if this is true then I'm very excited. I see that there are stenciling renderstates in that shader. So if this works in FPSC than I think I can fix the inner shadowing without having to touch the source code.

The stencil test will fail for any overlapping polys, and since the stencil test works at the pixel level, I don't think it matters which order they are drawn, as soon as a pixel occupies the space, every subsequent pixel that tries to overlap will fail the stencil test.

I'll be trying this out this week and post results.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 21st Nov 2010 02:38
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Sounds good.
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bond1
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2010 18:06 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2010 05:30
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Oh HELLS yeah! Who would have thought that FPSC could use a stencil buffer!

Green Gandalf, I modified your demo to illustrate the difference a stencil buffer makes. It's pretty dramatic. No more ugly double blending and z-clashing. And it works fine in FPSC as well, with JUST a shader!

I first render the shadow to the offscreen stencil buffer to "tag" it's pixels with a stencil value. Then in the next pass, the shadow gets rendered normally using the stencil buffer to "fill in" the pixels. As it gets drawn, I clear the stencil buffer to zero, so only the first pixel gets drawn, avoiding the overlapping effect when transparency is used.

Damn, how cool is this!



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Scene Commander
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2010 18:10
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Quote: "Damn, how cool is this!"


Yep... That's pretty cool..

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Soviet176
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2010 18:13
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Thats actually really awesome looking bond, RELEASE THE PACK! D: lol

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SOLO DESIGN
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2010 18:16
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WOW!!! it does make me wonder what other gems are available for FPSC that have still not been found........... perhaps TGC could release an advanced features list to help future devs?

bond1 this is great news and the shadow looks superb as a still, animated it would look the muts nuts!!
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Wraith Staff
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2010 21:50
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Amazing... simply amazing! I must have

@SOLO DESIGN I'm working on such a list for myself. Over 800 tips and tricks that, when put together, make an experience liken to a HL2 mod or Amnesia in quality. So many ideas, tutorials or features (hidden or otherwise), that few developers put together. Of course, only a few of them are as "meta" or as involved as shader creation, but many shaders are included in my notes. Any given user would use maybe 3 of said techniques while a BOTB could maybe fit in 15 or so, but no one has used all of them let alone the bulk. In fact, quite a few are already included in the community guide. A simple "little tweak" added to about 10 more "little tweaks" is no longer is just "little", it's an entire new way of doing things...

Of course this is huge just by itself! You are truly the king of FPSC, bond1! Do you secretly work for Valve or something?

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2010 01:18 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2010 01:33
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Quote: "Who would have thought that FPSC could use a stencil buffer!"

Lee Bamber?

Quote: "how cool is this!"

Man, that is so cool..I'm going to have to build a fire to stay warm.

Quote: "Thats actually really awesome looking bond, RELEASE THE PACK! D: lol"

Yeah, Yeah, what he said.

RELEASE THE PACK!

Thanks alot Green Gandalf, now we'll have to wait another month while Bond plays with the stencil stuff!

Just kidding, it's all good, and I am glad you helped Bond learn a new trick for FPSC.
This just keeps getting better, and better, and... better.


Edit
On a side note: with a t-shirt like that, it's no wonder she's running.

   Conjured Entertainment

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bond1
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2010 05:08 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2010 05:22
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You know, I thought FOR SURE Lee said that hardware stencil buffer was not available in dx9, but I could have misinterpreted.

Anyway, I'm glad I found out about it before finishing the pack, because this little trick GREATLY improves the look of the shadow's transparency. Now I think they would even look good with outdoor scenes as well with a very light transparency.

Come hell or high water, the pack will be sent off to TGC before the end of November.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2010 11:48
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Well done!

That's a dramatic improvement - and a novel use of the stencil buffer. I've learnt something really useful from this. Thank you.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2010 16:05
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OMG

This is even more incredible. Stencil shadows means we now have Doom3 quality graphics in FPSC.

I'd appreciate if you include a version of the old shadow shader in the pack as I do still quite like the hard shadows for some reason. Perhaps you could have a hard and soft version of the shader.

If the pack is submitted to TGC end of November I guess we can still get this in time for christmas!!

Did I forget to mention, OMG

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uzi idiot
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Posted: 24th Nov 2010 16:49
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sorry for my stupidity but what does this mean? are they stencil shadows? how do they differ from the original shader?

(I have no knowledge of shaders or anything like it, so should I keep my mouth shut)

good frame rates matter...
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bond1
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Posted: 24th Nov 2010 17:02 Edited at: 24th Nov 2010 17:02
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They are still planar shadows, but they now use the stencil buffer to make the transparency MUCH better, pixel-perfect in fact. Trust me, it's a huge improvement and makes them much more polished looking. And much more versatile too, you can have shadows that are totally opaque to barely noticeable without any artifacts.

I haven't been this excited in a while, I'll have some more videos of the pack in action this week after I finish it up. These new characters have really cool sillouhettes that show off the new shadows to great effect! Lee has promised me a new flag in the FPE file to enable or disable the blob shadow, so you can mix and match these new dynamic planar shadows with the old blob shadow.

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michael x
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Posted: 25th Nov 2010 21:33
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will this shader work with muzzleflash? like if you use a flashlight to illuminate a character from any angle.

more than what meets the eye

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 29th Nov 2010 02:41 Edited at: 29th Nov 2010 03:01
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Quote: "Lee has promised me a new flag in the FPE file to enable or disable the blob shadow, so you can mix and match these new dynamic planar shadows with the old blob shadow."

That is awesome, and especially if it can switch back and forth with a script.
I was thinking the other day about cycling through allies and how cool it would be if I could use the blob to indicate the character currently selected.
If the blob had color adjustments too via FPI, then it would be really useful instead of being unwanted like it has been in the past.
Maybe later down the road, but I am just glad to get your new character shadow for now even without the new stencil stuff.
This really does make a huge difference.

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Mr Game
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Posted: 29th Nov 2010 10:15
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Hi,

Could this shader be use for custom character or only is suit for this pack? also is any chance to buy only shader fx?

Mr Game

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Scope
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Posted: 29th Nov 2010 12:11
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Excellent bond1.Thanks for all your hard work.
Scope.
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 29th Nov 2010 13:55
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Quote: "Maybe later down the road, but I am just glad to get your new character shadow for now even without the new stencil stuff.
This really does make a huge difference"


Agreed. It was already going to make a huge difference with the hard shadow effect and now its going to be another order or magnitude better with the new projected soft stencil shadows.

@bond1 - Any chance we can have a peek at the new soft stencil shadows in FPSC just to tighted the thumb screws a little further?

The December TGC newsletter will be coming out in a couple of days. I'm hoping to see a nice article on this as its going to be HUGE.

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bond1
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Posted: 1st Dec 2010 00:17 Edited at: 1st Dec 2010 00:17
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Hey guys, the pack is done and on it's way to TGC. I'll start a new official thread with videos shortly, once I hear back from TGC on how to proceed with ESRB.

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Soviet176
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Posted: 1st Dec 2010 03:13
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Quote: "how to proceed with ESRB."


kill'em

nuff said

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bond1
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2010 06:42 Edited at: 2nd Dec 2010 06:43
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Still waiting to hear from TGC, maybe they are away at a conference.

In the meantime, here is a video of a character in FPSC, showing the kind of jaw-dropping effects that can be done. Other than the stock weapon, you'd never know this was made in FPS Creator: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2129966/medusa.zip

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SOLO DESIGN
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2010 10:33
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WOW!! who would have thought this kind of quality is available in FPSC. bond1 I think TGC should employ you full time and give you royalties from sales of this product from the release date of your new pack as it sure is going to sell a few units going on this quality!! heres to you!!
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DarthBasicVader
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2010 16:41
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It's simply beatiful! And unbelievable

Riccardo
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michael x
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2010 23:27 Edited at: 2nd Dec 2010 23:28
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great I cant wait to see the other characters in action. I wonder how many characters is there going to be in the pack?

more than what meets the eye

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2010 02:50 Edited at: 3rd Dec 2010 02:52
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Quote: "Hey guys, the pack is done and on it's way to TGC. I'll start a new official thread with videos shortly, once I hear back from TGC on how to proceed with ESRB."

YAY
You made your deadline too!
Awesome

Quote: "Still waiting to hear from TGC, maybe they are away at a conference."

It's all good.
I'm sure you guys will sort it out in time for Christmas.

Bond, that video is really amazing.
I had to watch it several times just to catch everything.
You really brought out the best of FPSC, and I am looking forward to making a Movie using all of your eye candy.

Quote: "WOW!! who would have thought this kind of quality is available in FPSC."

I'm glad that at least one genius perfectionist thought it was possible.

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GreenDixy
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2010 03:43
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Quote: "I'm glad that at least one genius perfectionist thought it was possible. "


bond1 is a perfectionist and good at it to the time and detail is excellent and would drive me bonkers if i was doing it lol

======================================

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2010 04:09
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That video is the best thing I've ever seen in FPSC.

I read TGC attended an app store conference in London recently so hopefully they will get the pack tomorrow or early next week.

Dynamic character stencil shadows are almost here!!

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bond1
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2010 05:41 Edited at: 3rd Dec 2010 05:58
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I just heard back from TGC. They will submit to ESRB as soon as possible before they (ESRB) close for the holidays.

This pack uses 1.17's shadervariable feature to alter the character's shader in realtime. It's an advanced, undocumented feature that has not been used before - so I'm pretty much on my own as far as learning how to use it. But the results are awesome!

In this example, it's used purely for visuals. But for another character it has gameplay value. When the character lunges in for an attack, it's eyes will glow a different color. Hitting the character during this time results in an instant kill. Otherwise the character takes many hits to kill. So the player has a choice: Play it safe and hang back, but lose lots of ammo, or come in close and try for an instant kill at the risk of getting hit. Cool stuff!

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Mr Game
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2010 10:15 Edited at: 3rd Dec 2010 10:16
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Great - U are the One who makes FPSC - the Legend engine.
I wanna to know when will be next environment pack (Metro Asylum, etc.) with new shaders?

thanx
Mr Game

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Juzi
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2010 20:58
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Truly great stuff!

I just wish you made more stuff from your own head, like completely new, weird and interesting characters. I'm perfectly fine with these but just a suggestion

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bond1
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Posted: 4th Dec 2010 00:41
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Yeah it's too bad original characters don't have mass appeal and don't sell very well to justify making as a $20 model pack.

But if anyone has any great concept art or an idea for an original character, I'd love a bit of freelance work thrown my way.

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Bootlicker
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Posted: 4th Dec 2010 00:46
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Quote: "Yeah it's too bad original characters don't have mass appeal and don't sell very well to justify making as a $20 model pack.

But if anyone has any great concept art or an idea for an original character, I'd love a bit of freelance work thrown my way.
"


well, it really depends, original stuff that people can use would sell awesomely yet orignal stuff that would be used in like 1 sub genre would be pretty pointless.

I would like to see a marine pack of yours that arent weird ass monsters, that way i can have some friends killing your weird ass monsters.


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Soviet176
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Posted: 4th Dec 2010 04:10
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Quote: "I would like to see a marine pack of yours that arent weird ass monsters, that way i can have some friends killing your weird ass monsters."


I agree, maybe space marines or something. Futuristic soldiers.

Putting fear back into sliced bread since 4th May 2010
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 4th Dec 2010 17:21
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Yeah it would be cool to see a soldier pack like in the attached pic.

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Seth Black
FPSC Reloaded TGC Backer
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posted: 4th Dec 2010 17:28 Edited at: 4th Dec 2010 17:28
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@bond1,

...or even an Everyday Folks pack (random assortment of the non-military
population) would be a very welcome treat during cooperative game levels.

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Conjured Entertainment
AGK Developer
20
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Joined: 12th Sep 2005
Location: Nirvana
Posted: 5th Dec 2010 17:25 Edited at: 5th Dec 2010 17:33
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Quote: "Yeah it's too bad original characters don't have mass appeal and don't sell very well to justify making as a $20 model pack.

But if anyone has any great concept art or an idea for an original character, I'd love a bit of freelance work thrown my way."

Vikings, Pirates, a historical Navy or other seamen would be nice, now that we have water in v118. (we gonna need some fishies too)

You could let your imagination run wild with any of those.

I would have said Wild West stuff like cowboys and indians, but I have been yelling that for years in model request threads.
Meanwhile, Rockstar Games made Red Dead Redemption, and they even have zombies in there now!
I liked playing with the Marx Toys' Johnny West figures as a child (before video games and computers), so I always wanted those characters for FPSC.
There is a company remaking the action figures again based off the old molds and new ones. (action figures sounds so much better than dolls)

   Conjured Entertainment

 WARNING: Intense Madness
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Nomad Soul
Moderator
19
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Joined: 9th Jan 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 6th Dec 2010 00:52
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I hope those ESRB people are doing some overtime this month!

At least I can watch the Medusa video a couple more hundred times until the release.

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bond1
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Joined: 27th Oct 2005
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Posted: 6th Dec 2010 01:06
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I see that knxrb has added a new command to hide the blob shadow. So we'll probably see an interim release of 1.18 just for this pack. But, the pack still works in 1.17 too, if you're willing to replace the original blob shadow with a fully transparent version (which is what I've been doing).

"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
SPECS: Windows7 x64, Intel Core i7 920, Geforce GTX 580, 6GB RAM
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Hamburger
17
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Joined: 23rd Jun 2009
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Posted: 6th Dec 2010 01:19
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could you use the medusa's fiery disappear script on other chars in your pack too?
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