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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Model pack 21 vs Enhanced Animations

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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 05:24 Edited at: 26th Aug 2010 05:27
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I purchased model pack 21 to use in my Quickhack game. And I got Enhanced Animations to control the animations of those objects.

The goblin object works fine. I can play its animations with DBPro commands, I can extract them and control them with EN_AN commands.

But I cannot do the same with some of the other models. And I can't load them into 3D Canvas, it throws an error about invalid file format.

I know there's a couple of different types of .x files. There's a text version, and a compressed binary version. I'm thinking that Enhanced Animations can't handle the format of the other models.

So... what can I do? Is there a way to convert the binary .x format to the text? Or vice versa? And how do I tell which format a model is using?

I really wanted to use Enhanced Animations with those models. Help!

EDIT: I just opened the problem .x files in wordpad, and they look like text files, just like the goblin.x file. So, why won't Enhanced Animations work with them?

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Daniel wright 2311
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 05:28 Edited at: 26th Aug 2010 05:30
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I had the same problem my self,I found out there was no way to covert them as you cant really open a .x file with its animations or rig. so i had to take the meshes, open them up to rerig them just to export them out the right way. the only problem there is the animations where lost due to the fact his where added to the animations. so no, there is no way but to complain about it them mabey he will do some extra work for the fourms,But I do dought it.

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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 05:40 Edited at: 26th Aug 2010 05:41
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Well that really sucks. Enhanced Animations works so well with the goblin, but I can't fill my dungeons with just goblins. I need some orcs, ogres, and imps.

RON! Can we get some EN_AN love?

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Daniel wright 2311
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 05:49
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I know right, I had contacted him 3 difrent times about his stuff and never recieved an answer. I emailed him about his animated skelitions and he never once gave me an answer so good luck.

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Chenak
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 05:54
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Load the object in dbpro and save them as dbo using the load object and save object commands, this should make it work with enhanced animation. I personally haven't had any problems and usually ron is very good with customer support, guess he must be on holiday or something. You could contact the creator of the pack and ask them to send you the models in the format you desire I guess
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Daniel wright 2311
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 05:59
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Quote: "Load the object in dbpro and save them as dbo using the load object and save object commands, this should make it work with enhanced animation. I personally haven't had any problems and usually ron is very good with customer support, guess he must be on holiday or something. You could contact the creator of the pack and ask them to send you the models in the format you desire I guess"


I tryed this three difrent times, either he hates me or he does not help his costermers. as far as coverting them to dark basic pro format i did not try this so it could work.

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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 06:11 Edited at: 26th Aug 2010 06:43
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I just tried loading the .x file, saving it as a .dbo file, and then using EnAn on it. It did not work.

EDIT: The animation frames DID stay with the .dbo object, I'm able to play them using DBPro's commands.

The Orc.x file is 6.8 megs in size, the Orc.dbo file is 4.7 megs in size. So that will save me a bit of memory. But the stripped .dbo files are all less than half a meg, and the EN_AN anim files for the goblin are all about 50k, so I'd really like to be able to use EN_AN with all the models. I've already changed all my code to use the EN_AN commands, and the anim transitions work really well on the goblin. Changing it all back to DBPro animation commands will make me very sad

I have no idea who made the models, and it's been a while. Maybe I can track them down and ask 'em to fix the prob. Maybe.

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James H
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 13:22
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You have tried altering the code to account for a different skeleton with a different number of limbs right??
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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 16:12
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Quote: "You have tried altering the code to account for a different skeleton with a different number of limbs right??"


There's no code to alter. I'm extracting a handful of animations from each model, and playing them back on the model I got them from.

I'm not trying to play the "goblin idle" animation on the "orc" model. I'm trying to play the "orc idle" animation on the "orc" model, the "ogre idle" animation on the "ogre" model, etc.

If, by chance, the orc and ogre had the same skeletal/limb structure, that would be fine, I could try using one "idle" animation for both models. That is clearly one of the advantages of using En_An. But I can't even get En_an to make the orc play his own animations.

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James H
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 16:33
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Rich I think maybe you have misundertood me.
Im confused as to how your doing this with no code??? You most definately have to use code to to extract and play back models that do not match the provided AI models rig.
You can produce a file with a list of limbs and such with EA for any model; the reason being to allow you the end-user to identify limb numbers and names so you can alter the example code succesfully. If you wish to use animations from one model on a different model you need to ensure the limb structure is the same and all limbs are named the same from what I remember. Otherwise it wont work.
As for not being able to extract and play back your orcs animations correclty, you must first of all ensure that the models structure/names and animation frames are exactly the same as the model that works with the code - or you will have to alter the code. Its as simple as that - altering the code is much easier/quicker than altering the media.
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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 19:49 Edited at: 26th Aug 2010 19:49
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@James H - I understand what you are saying. I don't think you've understood what I'm doing. I don't want to play one models animation on another model. And I don't need any limb or frame info.

This code...



works fine. However, this code...



does not play the orc's animation. I know the orc has those particular frames, because I can play them back with DBPro's native animation commands. I just can't get Enhanced Animation to play them back.

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James H
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 20:33
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Yes I got you now - sorry! Maybe you could try reading back the object fvf format from the good model using a memblock, then load up your bad model , convert the objects fvf then try agian and see if it makes any difference. Its a stab in the dark though.
Just wondering - is the animation extraction succesfull and EA isnt taking control of your object properly or does the extraction fail? Did you try extracting the entire animation instead to see if that worked?

I have something else niggling at the back of my mind - I could be wrong but I seem to remember having a similar if not the same issue with some model from the Game Creator Store or maybe one of the model packs I have, like I say I could be wrong but I think I either started the extraction from frame 1 instead of 0 or it had no keyframes so the timeline was a different scale and I just increased the end frame value. Worth a try at least - I`d test myself but I don`t have that model pack. If you have any other models with same/similar issues that arent in that pack theres a chance I have it so could test that if you know of one, otherwise sorry for wasting your time
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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 20:59 Edited at: 26th Aug 2010 21:01
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No waste of time, and I appreciate the suggestions! I will try those when I get home tonight.

I did try the entire animation, it did not work.

The extraction seems to work, I get an anim file from the orc that superficially looks similar to the one from the goblin.

I'm not too experienced with models and animations, I don't know what fvf means, and I've not done any memblock work yet. Would you have any advice on how to code that?

One thing different about the models... when I load the goblin, I must load the texture and assign it to the model. When I load the others (orc, ogre, etc.) I only have to load the object. If the image file is in the same path, it is automatically applied to the model without having to specifically load the .dds file and texture the object. I wouldn't expect that to affect the anims, but it does point out that the models may not have the same .x format. I believe it is a case of the goblin .x file not having the materiel listed internally, as I can't find any materiels listed in the file.

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James H
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 21:20
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"I'm not too experienced with models and animations, I don't know what fvf means, and I've not done any memblock work yet. Would you have any advice on how to code that?"
Load in your good model as objnum
1)make a mesh from your object(make mesh from object objnum,meshnum)
2)make a memblock from the mesh(make memblock from mesh memblocknum,meshnum)
3)read back the first dword value from the memblock;
vertformat as dword
vertformat=memblock dword(memblocknum,0)
4)convert your bad object prior to extracting anims(convert object fvf objnum,vertformat)
Like I said dont know if it will work - could actually visibly deform the loaded object for all I know.
FVF stans for Flexible Vertex Format(or maybe vertices) - each vertex in a triangle polygon has a list of data. The data is structured as is any format, the fvf code determines what that format is - have a read through memblock commands relating to mesh to get a better discription in the helpfiles.

So when you try to animate from the extracted files does the program fail? If not is there any movement at all of the object?(even the tiniest of movement - speed it up to make tiny movements more obvious to the eye) - if there is movement then maybe the animation frame scale is different ie does not finish at frame 29 for the idle state.
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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 21:35
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Quote: "So when you try to animate from the extracted files does the program fail? If not is there any movement at all of the object?(even the tiniest of movement - speed it up to make tiny movements more obvious to the eye) - if there is movement then maybe the animation frame scale is different ie does not finish at frame 29 for the idle state."


Very good question! The program does not fail. I have sometimes thought the model was actually moving a very small amount, but I chalked it up to my imagination. I will try again with a faster speed and more frames and see if it is really moving.

But, having said that, the animations do play back normally with the native DBPro animation commands, with no playback speed adjustments from the goblin to the orc, ogre, etc.

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James H
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 22:33
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Yes I had wondered about that as you mentioned you played it back succesfully in dbp native. But then I considered that maybe dbp ignores the scale and might play back animations using keyframes alone(there is a difference between normal animation frames and keyframes in various 3d model editors). I seem to recall I could only alter this scale when I didn`t use keyframes when trying to bone animate using blender produced x files. I can`t be sure though - it was a good while back when I did it.

I also seem to recall that the majority, if not all TGC sold bone rigged animations only use a certain set of animations produced by CharactorFX I think, which if I remember correctly is now free. You might want to give that a whirl if all else fails and see if it corrects the issue. Worth a try at least.
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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 23:21
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I have Character FX, and I'd love to be able to use it. Two problems though...

1. It doesn't import .x files.

2. The help file is really good, right up until "Creating the Animation", when it stops with a blank page. The tutorial and document links on the web page are all broken (they're gone, nobody home, it's freeware now)

So, even if I could load an .x file into it, I would still have to spend a lot of time playing with it to use it.

I haven't tried Milkshape, I might look into that. I've tried Blender (okay, I'd have to reinstall) Truespace (way too hard to use, nothing is straightforward) ACD3 (.x file exports won't animate in DBPro), Poser (can't seem to understand the controls, but seems cool), Anim8tor (loved it, might go back to it) and Lightwave modeler (again loved it, have to find the CDs and reinstall)

Every time I think I've got a program that will let me work with models and animations, there is some sort of problem importing or exporting in a format that DBPro can use.

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James H
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 23:50
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PMSL!
"
Every time I think I've got a program that will let me work with models and animations, there is some sort of problem importing or exporting in a format that DBPro can use."
Really feel for you - spent a lot of time doing this myself. Blender wont import animations succesfully and the only version I`ve found usefull is 2.43. Above that I havent tested in some time. But thats what Im sticking with, though I may reinstall anim8tor as last time I used it or the version I had didnt export anything useful in dbp. In fact gonna revisit a few programs like truespace, charactor fx, etc over the coming weeks and see if they of any use as Im sure they have progreesed since when I last checked them.
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Sixty Squares
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Posted: 27th Aug 2010 00:59 Edited at: 27th Aug 2010 01:00
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Yeah the lack of a .x import is annoying in Character FX. I've used it for animations though, it seems to work well (my animations have tons of frames when exported though, not sure if that's good or bad). Anyway, here's a tutorial on connecting the bones to the model that I followed:

http://learngamedesign.com/gdt_E1.html

I used my model (mine meaning a model I got in 3ds format) instead of the zombie. After that I found the animation window and played around with it until I could get something working. I still need a modeling program though since I don't know how to model at all .


As for the Enhanced Animations thing, that is very strange. I don't have Enhanced Animations and was thinking about getting it, but after reading this thread I'm not so sure...


Guns, cinematics, stealth, items and more!
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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 28th Aug 2010 15:40 Edited at: 28th Aug 2010 15:42
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Hmmm....

When I use EA to export a .dbo object with no animations, the .dbo object still shows the same number of frames as before I strip out the animations.

So apparently EA doesn't remove the frames, it just removes the data for the frames.

I was thinking I could APPEND OBJECT on the empty .dbo and put back only some of the animation frames I needed, but the APPEND OBJECT command takes all of the frames from the new object. Foiled again!

My plan now is to only load a couple of different mob objects per dungeon level, and swap out the creatures I load when I build the next level down. So, first level might have orcs and goblins, second level might have goblins and ogres, and so on. That way, I'll only have two 4 meg objects loaded at any time.

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seppgirty
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Posted: 28th Aug 2010 18:22
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i know that fragmotion will import FPSC animated models. give that a try to convert your animations.

gamer, lover, filmmaker
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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 28th Aug 2010 18:54 Edited at: 28th Aug 2010 19:53
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Okay, I'll try that.

EDIT: Fragmotion looks pretty good. It loads the pack 21 models and plays their animations. If I can strip out the anims I don't need, I can forget EA and just use the DBPro commands for controlling the animations.

Thanks!

P.S. I am getting tired of buying programs to overcome the limitations of DBPro though. If APPEND OBJECT had a "start frame" and "end frame" parameter, life would be sweet.

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Cellulo
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Posted: 28th Aug 2010 21:39
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You can try this another freeware animation program : Pacemakerhttp://www.goddysey.com/pacemaker.htm , export in direct X and Dbo format, and import in direct X , b3d and 3ds formats.

This program use physics to create animation and you can save the recorded animation made by the physicin into your characters.
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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 28th Aug 2010 23:23
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*sigh*

Fragmotion lets me cut and paste the frames from the model pack 21 objects. Yay!

But the objects themselves load in all twisted, and the weapons are floating in space instead of being held. Boo!

Apparently you can't APPEND OBJECT to an object that has no frames to start with, so I can't get the animations back into a model that looks like it should. BOO!

I give up. The heck with Enhanced Animations and all the 3D modeling programs that won't work with DBPro. I'll just load all the bloated models into my game and hope there's enough RAM left to run the game itself.

Thanks all, and this thread's a wrap!

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baxslash
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Posted: 29th Sep 2010 19:03 Edited at: 29th Sep 2010 19:21
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I'm having the exact same problem with the 'Zombie apocolypse' model pack!

There should be a workaround and I'm surprised TGC aren't making it easier to use their products universally...

Screws up my work on my Intel competition entry by quite a bit!

Anyone else have any suggestions to fix this?

EDIT: If you export to ".x" from fragmotion in binary format using the settings shown below the animations work OK!!


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Ron Erickson
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Quote: "I tryed this three difrent times, either he hates me or he does not help his costermers. as far as coverting them to dark basic pro format i did not try this so it could work."


I hate you. No, really. I never got one of your e-mails. Either they went to my spam box or you sent them to the wrong address. I use the one that is linked in my profile.

Sorry to bring back an old thread, but this is the first that I've seen it. I saw it linked from a different thread. I ALWAYS try to support my products the best that I can. Sorry this slipped through the cracks. If you are still having problems, let me know. I will try to help. E-mail is the best way to reach me. It is easy for me to miss forum posts.

Ron

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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 8th Apr 2011 20:02
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@ Ron - I've sent you an email with one of the models that doesn't seem to work, and a project I was using to test them. Thanks for looking at this problem.

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 8th Apr 2011 20:31
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I just replied to your e-mail. If you could please send me a copy of the original problem model, not the one that you saved as .dbo with no animation, it would be a big help.

Ron

a.k.a WOLF!
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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 8th Apr 2011 20:33 Edited at: 8th Apr 2011 20:35
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Quote: "If you could please send me a copy of the original problem model"


Will do, although it might have to wait until I get home from work tonight.

EDIT: Aha! I found the orc.x on a thumb drive, I'll send it along.

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 8th Apr 2011 21:41
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Well, I just had a look at your problem. It is all working fine for me! The issue that I found is that the orc and goblin do not have the same limb structure and you were trying to apply the same animation to both objects. I extracted the animation from the orc and then used it on him and he played just fine. You have to apply the animation to limb 8.
Here is your code that I revised to work:



Hope this helps!

Ron

a.k.a WOLF!
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Daniel wright 2311
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Posted: 8th Apr 2011 22:03
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Quote: "I hate you. No, really. I never got one of your e-mails. Either they went to my spam box or you sent them to the wrong address. I use the one that is linked in my profile."


Well my friend, I have sent three emails to you regarding your modles With no replay, Im guessing they did go to your spam folder, But I have never sent spam, How do you want me to send A email to you if it goes to your spam, And NO,I DONT THINK YOU HATE ME, I WAS JUST JOKING AROUND WHEN I WROTE THAT.

my signature keeps being erased by a mod So this is my new signature.
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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 8th Apr 2011 22:13
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Haha. I know!
I have no idea what happened. You don't have to be a spammer to end up getting placed in people's spam folders. The filters aren't perfect. I know I dodn't get anything from you though or I would have replied. You can try to e-mail me again and we'll see what happens.

Ron

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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 8th Apr 2011 23:45
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Quote: "The issue that I found is that the orc and goblin do not have the same limb structure and you were trying to apply the same animation to both objects."


Thanks! I guess I never tried "orc-on-orc" with limb 8, just "goblin-on-orc" on limb 8. So, even though I can't recycle the goblin anims into the orc, EA will still save me lots of object size and memory usage.

Onward!

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 9th Apr 2011 00:47
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Yeah. The ONLY way that you can re-use the animation on other models is if the limb structure is the same. Otherwise it will try to play the wrong animations on the wrong limbs.

a.k.a WOLF!
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