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Dark GDK / Thinking of switching from Darkbasic Pro

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CocaCola
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Posted: 7th Sep 2010 21:20 Edited at: 8th Sep 2010 04:31
The most important ones are like this and the extremely important ones are like this


It'd be great if you could answer atleast one, even if you don't know them all.
I have been thinking of switching because I plan to be a programmer and well I heard you learn some bad BASIC habits from darkbasic pro so I just want some questions answered if you wouldn't mind:

1. I bought DGS bonanza and I was wondering if that came with the licensed DarkGDK
if so does that mean I can legally sell games I make with that without having to pay TGC?


2. Does everything in the DGS work for DarkGDK? (Physics, Shader, Lights, AI, Text, EDIT, voices)
if so how hard are they to get working for GDK?


3. Some of the GDK codes use db at the beginning, is that darkbasic? so I could do like dbMakeObjectCube etc ?

4. Is it easier (by that I mean does it take less code not like less thinking/writing) to make games?

5. Is GDK more powerful than DBP?

6. Which takes up more space? Dark GDK or DBpro?


7. Is there a command list for dark gdk like in DBpro?

8. How similar are the DBpro commands and GDK?

9. Can GDK use C++ commands as well as GDK commands?
if so do you have to change a c++ command to a GDK or can you use it how it is?

10. When creating a project I seen theres 2D game, 3d, and game, does Game do both 3d and 2d?

Thanks

I want coke, not Pepsi!
dark coder
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 04:41
Quote: "3. Some of the GDK codes use db at the beginning, is that darkbasic? so I could do like dbMakeObjectCube etc ?"


All of the GDK functions are prefixed with 'db' and have their spaces removed and are otherwise camel cased, so, 'Position Object id, x, y, z' becomes dbPositionObject( id, x, y, z ).


Quote: "4. Is it easier (by that I mean does it take less code not like less thinking/writing) to make games?"


If you're proficient in C++ then you'll find most things can be produced a lot quicker in C++ than in DBPro, this is especially true for medium to large scale projects where the advantages of objects and inheritance/polymorphism dwarf DBPro's abilities.


Quote: "5. Is GDK more powerful than DBP?"


Keep in mind DBPro is both a library and a language, GDK is merely the DBPro library in C++, so the libraries are more or less the same. However, you can access certain internal structures through GDK without much trouble which can't be done in DBPro, so in that sense it's more powerful.


Quote: "6. Which takes up more space? Dark GDK or DBpro?"


If you're talking about final exe size then I assume GDK would be smaller as VSC++ is a very good compiler, especially if you enable optimizations.


Quote: "7. Is there a command list for dark gdk like in DBpro?"


The documentation for both is rather poo, but I personally find it easier to use DBPro's editors to quickly check syntax for functions.


Quote: "8. How similar are the DBpro commands and GDK?"


As mentioned above, the functions are identical more or less, though GDK has a few more internal ones you can access, which is sometimes useful.


Quote: "9. Can GDK use C++ commands as well as GDK commands?
if so do you have to change a c++ command to a GDK or can you use it how it is?"


C++ doesn't have commands, but yes of course you can use other libraries alongside it. In fact if there is a native variant of a GDK function you should use the native one, for example: dbLen, dbStr and generally all the string handling functions are absolute junk, so you should use the standard library's variants.


Quote: "10. When creating a project I seen theres 2D game, 3d, and game, does Game do both 3d and 2d?"


You can also make 1D and 4D games, those are just template projects, they don't force you to do anything.

Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 05:49 Edited at: 8th Sep 2010 05:49
Quote: "1. I bought DGS bonanza and I was wondering if that came with the licensed DarkGDK
if so does that mean I can legally sell games I make with that without having to pay TGC?"

no

Quote: "2. Does everything in the DGS work for DarkGDK? (Physics, Shader, Lights, AI, Text, EDIT, voices)
if so how hard are they to get working for GDK?"

are you talking about dlls?
no
but there are opensource and free libraries for cpp which will end up working for you.

dark gdk is also CaSe senSiTiVE

Smoke me a kipper, ill be back for breakfast.
CocaCola
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 05:56
Alright guys, thanks so much, I'm gonna stick with DBpro for the main reasons that:

1. I already have it installed

2.
Quote: "GDK is merely the DBPro library in C++, so the libraries are more or less the same"


3. I can legally sell games as I have the licensed version that came with DGS

4. I already know how to use DBpro

5. I can use my plugins that I got from DGS (eXtends, Dark Edit, etc)

6. it doesn't seem much different from dark GDK except the above (and the fact that in GDK I can add other libraries or whatever but I probally wouldn't do that.

I want coke, not Pepsi!
Zotoaster
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 14:15
The biggest difference is the language. C++ is a much, much more powerful language than DBP and is a lot faster too. You have to consider this.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
Kevin Picone
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 15:36
There's little point switch for performance reason if you're not currently really really pushing Dbpro.

CocaCola
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 17:19
Quote: "The biggest difference is the language. C++ is a much, much more powerful language than DBP and is a lot faster too. You have to consider this."


yeah but I thought
Quote: "GDK is merely the DBPro library in C++, so the libraries are more or less the same"


so they pretty much had the same commands

I want coke, not Pepsi!
entomophobiac
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 17:27 Edited at: 8th Sep 2010 17:28
Quote: "so they pretty much had the same commands"


On the DBP-side, yes. But C++ has all the power of a world full of programmers. DBP only has this forum.

C++ has a high beginner threshold, if you don't study it at a school. Mainly because it requires a lot more from the user than DBP does, in terms of memory management, compiler settings, etc.

But once you're over that threshold, the strengths of classes, pointers and their many uses kicks DBP's behind.
CocaCola
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 17:33
hm, so I think I asked this before but you can use any c++ code along with GDK? Like you can use them and mix them together? also when he said
Quote: "You can also make 1D and 4D games, those are just template projects, they don't force you to do anything."


wouldn't 4d be out of the screen? and 1d not visible at all, as we need 2 dimensions to see?

I want coke, not Pepsi!
dark coder
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 18:01 Edited at: 8th Sep 2010 18:04
Quote: "hm, so I think I asked this before but you can use any c++ code along with GDK? Like you can use them and mix them together?"


Of course, GDK is just another library for C++. That doesn't mean you can use any library together with it and expect it to work properly though, i.e. you might have some issues trying to run GDK and irrlicht properly at the same time as they'd both want to draw stuff to the screen.


Quote: "wouldn't 4d be out of the screen? and 1d not visible at all, as we need 2 dimensions to see?"


The 3D you see in games is displayed on your 2D screen and that doesn't fly out of it, and you see the 3D world, but the monitor is still visible despite projecting a 2D image. So a 1D game would just be a line. And like 3D, 4D would just be a limited slice of the world projected into 2D.

Either way, it seems you don't fully understand the difference between C++ & GDK, and DBPro & its libraries. In GDK, functions such as dbMakeObjectCube() are part of the GDK library, and are identical to DBPro's Make object Cube. The difference is with the actual core languages, such as DBPro: myVar as integer : myVar = myVar + 10 and C++: int myVar = 0; myVar += 10; Those don't use the libraries and are where the major differences lie.

The differences there may seem insignificant and that we're just changing the order of things, but when you require more complex routines that rely on the CPU, such as AI or editing images, this is where DBPro falls over and dies. I recall writing code in the past in DBPro and writing virtually the same thing in C++ without optimizations and having it run at twice the speed, after further optimizing the code I could get it to at least 50x the speed and I still had some optimizations left.

But as Kevin Picone said: "There's little point switch for performance reason if you're not currently really really pushing Dbpro."

KISTech
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 18:27
..and to see something that pushes DBPro to it's upper limits, have a look at Worlds Apart Online. The client and server are both written in DBPro and while the server isn't even breaking a sweat with 10 clients the client has come very close to maxing out DBPro's abilities.

I have an update for it that I can't post because it goes beyond DBPro's abilities and wont run.

I'm rewriting all of it in C++ with GDK.

Mireben
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 20:37
Most questions are already answered, just a few more comments.

Quote: "2. Does everything in the DGS work for DarkGDK? (Physics, Shader, Lights, AI, Text, EDIT, voices)"


Some plugins have both Dark Basic Pro and Dark GDK versions and some don't. If you have a look at the menu on the TGC web page, when you move the mouse over the product name, it opens a sub-menu with plugins. If the plugin is not listed next to Dark GDK then it probably does not have a GDK version. You can also have a look at the web page of the plugin you are interested in for more information. If you have the Bonanza pack then you can check directly on the CD what versions you have received.


Quote: "so I think I asked this before but you can use any c++ code along with GDK? "


Not only you CAN use C++ code but you HAVE to use it. Dark GDK is a library, a collection of game-related commands which actually extends the C++ language, but you have to write the whole program framework in C++. When you use Dark Basic Pro, you write the framework in Basic. With Dark GDK you have to use C++. Which leads to the question....

Quote: "4. Is it easier (by that I mean does it take less code not like less thinking/writing) to make games?"


It's not easier because you have to learn a new programming language. In terms of code size, I can't compare the amount of code needed to write a Basic or a C++ program but I don't think it's relevant. The important thing is that the coding style will be different.
Mireben
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 20:43
Two more:

Quote: "10. When creating a project I seen theres 2D game, 3d, and game, does Game do both 3d and 2d?"


The 2d and 3d game templates will give you some example code which you probably look at once and then never use again. The "game" template gives you an empty project to start from, which contains only the main loop. Further it doesn't matter if you start writing a 2d or a 3d game with that template, it's good for both.

Quote: "5. Is GDK more powerful than DBP?"


Maybe, maybe not, but a C++ program compiled into native machine code is more powerful than an interpreted Basic program.
CocaCola
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 21:04
Ok just one more question for everybody, that is going to decide wether or not im gonna get it, and it HAS been answered but I want to know from all of you if it's true:

Does the DGS bonanza come with the LICENSED darkGDK?

I want coke, not Pepsi!
Pilz X Schizo
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 22:16
After searching the Bonanza page I really couldn't find much info on GDK so my guess would be it is the un-licensed version since GDK is free to download, but the good thing is that the GDK license is only $30. On a side note you shouldn't really be worrying about having the license untill you have a product that is near completion and since any commercial quality software is going to take some time to develop I think you have plenty of time to wait to purchase the license.
CocaCola
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Posted: 9th Sep 2010 00:45
ok and are these commands also available in GDK/c++, if so what are they?

function
phy start
sync on
sync rate
do
loop

Im still considering it... should I contact TGC to see if it is the lic version of GdK?

I want coke, not Pepsi!
KISTech
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Posted: 9th Sep 2010 01:51
Everything in your list is there. The syntax is just different.

Don't worry about the license. Make your project, then figure that part out.

CocaCola
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Posted: 9th Sep 2010 01:52
I already messaged them, until then Red Dead Redemption, MW2, and blender

I want coke, not Pepsi!
Cuddle Bunniezzz 12
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Posted: 9th Sep 2010 06:25 Edited at: 9th Sep 2010 06:26
Mind if I chime in on a semi-related note.

Well, you're going to need to learn C++ (if you are switching), I'd recommend this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Through-Game-Programming-Third/dp/1435457420/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284002671&sr=8-1

That's the page for the new 3rd edition that is coming out at the end of this month. I read the 2nd edition and it was great.

It's a little boring though that all you do is work with the command line, but it's well worth it.

http://ref.darkgdk.us/ <- Online DarkGDK Refernece. More content coming soon.
CocaCola
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Posted: 9th Sep 2010 08:06
I won't order anything, I can learn from the internet, anyway thanks, hopefully TGC gets back to me soon

I want coke, not Pepsi!
Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 9th Sep 2010 11:54 Edited at: 9th Sep 2010 23:16
bonanza doesnt include license...

...removed, some people dont get it...

Smoke me a kipper, ill be back for breakfast.
CocaCola
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Posted: 9th Sep 2010 17:35 Edited at: 9th Sep 2010 17:37
Quote: "A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes. DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH....
Where can I get the codes. I know how to build it with codes. GET IT. I HOPE U UNDERSTAND. DUHH"


sorry thats NOT what I mean, haha I read that too, except theres a few differences between me and him:
Im actually learning to program myself
Im reading the books online and getting tutorials from youtube
Im under 18 and cant order the books for myself (thats why) , might get them eventually but not right now.
I don't randomly flame people I don't know.
For the most part I spell correctly.

I want coke, not Pepsi!
KISTech
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Posted: 9th Sep 2010 18:10 Edited at: 10th Sep 2010 00:52
[removed]

Didn't get it...

Cuddle Bunniezzz 12
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Posted: 9th Sep 2010 22:04
@CocaCola

Okay, if you can't get a copy of that book, here is another good one,
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/beginner/cc305129.aspx.

It's a free and online edition of this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Beginners-Guide-Second-Guides-McGraw-Hill/dp/0072232153.

The only main difference of the two is that this one covers Object oriented code a bit more, along with templates and the io system, but the first one uses the C++ STL more. Ex, in the first book, you mainly use "std::string" objects for strings, but in this one, you use the old "char *" c-style strings.

http://ref.darkgdk.us/ <- Online DarkGDK Refernece. More content coming soon.
Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 9th Sep 2010 23:14
Quote: "sorry thats NOT what I mean, haha I read that too"

it wasnt in relation to what you said, it was just a joke, lighten up.

Smoke me a kipper, ill be back for breakfast.
CocaCola
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Posted: 10th Sep 2010 00:47
Quote: "it wasnt in relation to what you said, it was just a joke, lighten up."


sorry I just don't want to come across as somebody like him.

I want coke, not Pepsi!
Matty H
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Posted: 10th Sep 2010 01:00
Quote: "I already messaged them, until then Red Dead Redemption, MW2, and blender "


Whats wrong with everyone? that should be:
Quote: "I already messaged them, until then Red Dead Redemption, BF:BC2, and blender "


Lol, just kidding, couldn't resist.
If you want to be a pro coder someday then learn C++ now, it takes a while so the earlier you start the better. Also you can still make games without C++'s more advanced features by mainly relying on the DarkGDK library which uses a basic syntax.

CocaCola
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Posted: 10th Sep 2010 01:39 Edited at: 10th Sep 2010 01:55
Quote: "I already messaged them, until then Red Dead Redemption, BF:BC2, and blender"

haha yeah, but I got everything for BF BC2 so it's kinda boring now

Quote: "Lol, just kidding, couldn't resist.
If you want to be a pro coder someday then learn C++ now, it takes a while so the earlier you start the better. Also you can still make games without C++'s more advanced features by mainly relying on the DarkGDK library which uses a basic syntax.
"

Yeah, I guess... I still can't decide... I should make a pros and cons list!!


DBpro pros:
Licensed
Easier(ish)
I already know some of it
I can use everything in the DGS bonanza
Already on the computer
Wider community (TGC wise)


GDK pros:
Better if I plan to become a programmer
Gets rid of bad BASIC habits
Can use other libraries
C++
Way wider community (C++ wise)
Faster
Can make better games than DBpro (If you know how to code them)
Can use most of DGS bonanza
Can buy license after I learn to program better



Anything I should add to the list?

EDIT:
Thats it, im switching to GDK! I figure as soon as I have a game worthy of selling I can buy the license.


Can I use my Darkphysics or AI or anythings key on any computer that I have? Because at christmas I may be getting a new laptop... How would I do it?

I want coke, not Pepsi!

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