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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Awesome ! selling fpsc stock media !

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Dark Evenger
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Posted: 24th Sep 2010 23:53
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look this guy who sell scifi fpsc stock media and look the price !

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3d-col-x/247103
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bond1
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 02:29 Edited at: 25th Sep 2010 02:30
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Yeah TGC has been selling through Turbosquid ever since FPSC has been released. It's just another source of revenue, aimed at a different audience (hence the price). I remember Richard Davey (TGC's previous website guy) saying that Turbosquid brings in enough money every month to buy and XBox 360 and a few games.

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"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
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Wolf
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 02:32
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http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/158411

Can't you download this one for free at the TGC Store?



-Wolf

God Helps the Beast in Me!
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Plystire
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 06:16
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That's almost down right sleezy in my book. That's just taking advantage of the ignorant.

Someone had to say it.


The one and only,


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AbdulAhad
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 07:45
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http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/158384

Isn't this for free on the store?

Abdul Ahad
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BULLSHOCK 2
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 08:14
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Quote: "That's almost down right sleezy in my book. That's just taking advantage of the ignorant."

No, its business.

Products, especially digital media, are worth what people are willing to pay for it. Its a different market, therefore a different price. There is nothing sleazy about it.

If anything, the turbosquid price is the normal price, and the modelpacks are extremely discounted.

FPS Creator Applications and Indie Game Dev Resources
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KeithC
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 08:24
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Quote: "That's almost down right sleezy in my book. That's just taking advantage of the ignorant."


Again, complaints leveled at a company that provides extremely low cost media for game development.

-Keith

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bond1
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 08:31 Edited at: 25th Sep 2010 08:33
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I agree with Bullshock. It's just smart business. The Turbosquid price is still cheaper than hiring a freelancer. So that audience would rather pay $45.00 and be done with it, rather than take time to scour the internet for free/cheap models.

In the FPSC side, there IS no market for $45.00 models, no matter WHAT it is. $45 dollars might as well be $4500 dollars, it simply won't sell. So in FPSC-land they need to priced accordingly and hopefully sell in enough volume over time to justify the crazy low price.

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"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
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A r e n a s
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 11:21 Edited at: 25th Sep 2010 11:21
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Im surprised that there are not models on there to be honest. The are so many model packs, they could be making so much more money.

I really do think they should put up more models (if they have licences) to turbosquid.

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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 11:35
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Am I right in thinking that the FPSC models of the ones on turbosquid have a completely different licence, as in they are for use in FPSC only! Whereas the turbosquid models are for use in any thing.

That's the problem here, the forums are full of kids that do not work and do not understand the value of money or for that fact, the value of 3D models and complain when one sells for just over what they get for pocket money.

Also, why does everyone have to accuse someone of selling someone else's work when they do not know the full facts? This topic has popped up at least 3 other times in the past month.

Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit, AMD Phenom II X4 940 3.0Ghz, 2.0GB Single-Channel DDR2 @ 400MHz, ATI Radeon Sapphire HD 5770 Vapor-X
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The Storyteller 01
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 13:04
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It's completely different marketing of media as other posters allready stated.

The FPSC store doesnt sell 3D models but FPSC-ready models, which comes which an engine-bound license.

Pesonally I don't mind where other peoples X-Boxes come from and my educated guess is anyway, that the open-market revenues help to keep the Model Pack and store prices low.

In case you find my grammar and spelling weird ---> native German speaker ^^
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Errant AI
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 16:00
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Quote: "Am I right in thinking that the FPSC models of the ones on turbosquid have a completely different licence, as in they are for use in FPSC only!"


Quote: "The FPSC store doesnt sell 3D models but FPSC-ready models, which comes which an engine-bound license."


While yes, TGC sells models in a derivative format (.x) which has a reduced value vs. a native format model (.max, etc); In no way is the media sold on GCS or in packs engine-bound by license.
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Dark Evenger
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 16:03
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okey , thx for response

i dont love this systeme of waiting validation it make more than 5 hour to post my message !
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The Storyteller 01
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 16:55
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@Errant AI:
So it would be legal to export and rerigg FPSC-models from the store (including your own) and use in any engine or media?

In case you find my grammar and spelling weird ---> native German speaker ^^
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Errant AI
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 17:40
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@The Storyteller 01,

GCS assets are limited to usage in games. Modelpacks, I believe, are a bit broader about "other media" such as print or film. It's all detailed out in the licenses including the definition of a "game" anthe types of applications excluded. For example you can't make an open source/GPL game or a game-maker with the media but you could re-rig or modify the media and use it in a UDK game or whatever so long as the distribution or type of game doesn't violate the license.

You are allowed to...

Quote: "modify Assets and integrate Assets in "Commercial Games" (as defined below) created using FPS Creator, FPS Creator X10, Dark Basic Professional, Dark GDK or in other Games; and
issue copies of such Commercial Games (and permit others to issue copies of such Games) to the public for commercial purposes. "


and FYI...

Quote: "A "Game" is an entertainment software game whose sole purpose is to entertain its user without further modification. The term Game expressly excludes: (a) any software tool or software product which can (or might) be used in order to create further games or other software products; and (b) any software library, compilation or collection of graphics and / or sounds and / or other assets or works from which a particular graphic or sound or other asset or work may be extracted to be used independently of the software in which it was first incorporated; in each case irrespective of whether or not the primary purpose of such software is to entertain its user. "


So technically, people shouldn't even be using the stuff in FPSC games without Vishnu or similar reasonable protection to prevent ripping.

Disclaimer: The above is not legal advice.
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The Storyteller 01
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 23:31
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@Errant AI:
Thanks for clearing that up!

In case you find my grammar and spelling weird ---> native German speaker ^^
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Plystire
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Posted: 26th Sep 2010 04:01
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Quote: "Again, complaints leveled at a company that provides extremely low cost media for game development."


Again, remarks leveled at a posters opinion to discredit them as though what they said was to be taken as fact. Thanks, Keith!

That was not a complaint, it was an observation. Take the following into account:

I am not an artist, so I don't know the value of a .3ds model versus a .x model. But I have dabelled in game engineering long enough to know that a .3ds version is by no means required for anything over having the .x model (with animations) and textures. Conversions and rerigs can be performed regardless. But in my eyes, if someone were paying for such a model, I can't imagine they would want it for the sole purpose of loading it up in a modelling program and changing it. Someone with the talent to utilize a modeling program would likely make their own models. If I were to go purchase this model, it would only be for loading it up in a game that I'm making, with no modifications and using it as-is. This in mind, which is a better bargain? A $45 .3ds model, or pennies for a .x model that comes with a load of other .x models alongside game creation software?

That's the way I see it and that's the premise I based my opinion on.

Feel free to discuss.


The one and only,


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rolfy
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Posted: 26th Sep 2010 04:42 Edited at: 26th Sep 2010 05:23
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Thing is your looking at this from the the wrong angle, the models on TS are in fact reasonably priced, the same models issued with FPSC are a give-away, and not a reason to put down TGC, also TS takes a hefty cut of anything sold on their site so actual profits to the artist are not what they first appear.
I reckon its a generous offering on the part of TGC to give so much free media with the game creation software we purchase and the fact it is a gift is overlooked.
I believe anyone selling media through the store is also free to sell their media anywhere else they please too, so thats a matter of choice.
If I were to sell my work outside of these forums I would be asking for a lot more than I do here and in fact I have been considering doing that, I dont expect many folks from around here will be paying the 'real' price though but TBH it seems forgotten that many selling their work here and through TGC do so with a community spirit which is the primary reason prices are low.
I dont think its realistic to expect anyone to create media for the kind of prices they would get keeping it TGC exclusive.

All of the above is same reason you hang out here and created PB with s4real, which you guy's charged for, if it could be used outside of FPSC and sold elsewhere,I am pretty certain it would cost more especially when the site you sold it on expects 50 percent.

On the other hand people are spoiled around here by the cheap media and expect it as a matter of course, this has actually forced many media designers to keep prices low particulalry for model packs ad store media which in fact takes 50 percent from the designer so its even less for those creating for FPSC , this is what bond1 is referring to when he says no one here is going to pay 45 bucks for a character.

Take away the reason for low prices and see how far you get when you got to pay proper rates and fees. I believe you would be lucky to see a 'level' in WIP never mind a full game.
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Errant AI
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Posted: 26th Sep 2010 06:30
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Quote: "Again, remarks leveled at a posters opinion to discredit them as though what they said was to be taken as fact."


I don't think it was meant to discredit you... It was just his observation of your... observation

Rofly hit the nail dead on. More-over, it would probably be more-so unethical or predatory to sell the models on TS at the crazy-low prices our community is used to as it would be uncompetitive and undercut the prices established there.

Quote: "But in my eyes, if someone were paying for such a model, I can't imagine they would want it for the sole purpose of loading it up in a modelling program and changing it. Someone with the talent to utilize a modeling program would likely make their own models."


$45 will only get 1-2 hours of in-house artist's time or an hour or less for a competent freelancer. Even if the model is to be further modified there is perhaps hundreds of dollars of labor saved and precious man-hours which can be allocated to assets deemed to be of higher priority. Multiply this by hundreds of more assets needed for a project and the savings become even more pronounced.

Quote: "This in mind, which is a better bargain? A $45 .3ds model, or pennies for a .x model that comes with a load of other .x models alongside game creation software?"


It's not always a matter of bargain hunting and many of the non-guild-ed artists who sell items on TS also sell on their own or alternative sites at reduced rates. Keep in mind, there are many studios with TS corporate accounts which allow purchases to be made at lower levels and without going through the hassle of getting a purchase order from the accounting dept. or w/e like may be needed to buy from other sources. If a project's budget is in the tens of thousands to millions, the bit of money not saved is negligible.
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KeithC
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Posted: 26th Sep 2010 07:24 Edited at: 26th Sep 2010 07:25
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Quote: "Again, remarks leveled at a posters opinion to discredit them as though what they said was to be taken as fact. Thanks, Keith!"


Refer to Rolfy's post, and mix it with a smidgen of EAI posting; as a response from me. As far as the "facts" go; those were your words, not mine.

-Keith

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Pain
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Posted: 26th Sep 2010 07:38
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I agree with Rolfy

If you think about it TGC Has given us a great deal on the software and then also gave us free models to use with the software (FPSC) Its not like they o us anything. The Stock meadia Belongs to TGC, They can do what ever they want with it and its completly their right for them to do so.

Pain

Me = noob

and i love The TGC : )
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Plystire
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 03:14
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This is the same as opening two stores around town. They both sell the same products, but the store near the owner's friend's house has everything marked at half price. The owner doesn't want people buying from the high priced store to know about the store with low prices, because obviously he makes more money from the higher priced store if people think it's a low price in comparison to nearby stores. (This is, of course, overlooking the fact that TGC does not own TS)

No matter how you look at it, they're relying on people to be ignorant to the price of the same models here, otherwise the models on TS would never sell.

I never drew the community into question. This has been about the models TGC offers on TS alongside the same ones they offer here.
We all already know the community here is spoiled and TGC is giving away media at dirt-cheap prices, as are the media producers here selling on the TGS.

Regardless of being a good business model, how is this not taking advantage of anyone?

I suppose from a business perspective, what they're doing is good. But from a consumer's perspective, I can't help but say what they're doing is a bit sleezy.


The one and only,


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KeithC
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 03:25 Edited at: 27th Sep 2010 03:33
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Opinions vary; I'd go into this more, but I can see there's no point with you. Your comparing apples and oranges above. I can model and sell a simple crate at Turbosquid (you can see there's not much to the mesh on that one) pretty easily for $10-$20 or more. Try doing that here, and you'll be ridiculed by numerous "developers". Taking that same logic, and pricing scheme; it sounds about right to charge for a model at Turbosquid that is graciously given away to the community here (since many here have either bought TGC products, or told others about them....I'd look at it as a "thankyou"....apparently that is too difficult for some people here).

In fact; I encourage you to take this argument to Lee and Rick, and let them tell you the reason why. Go ahead; I can see you feel strongly about this. While you're at it, be sure to tell them that you think their business practices are "sleezy". In fact; I'll go ahead and save you the trouble and send Lee the link to this thread.

Let us know what their response is. Have a great day.

-Keith

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rolfy
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 03:49 Edited at: 27th Sep 2010 04:12
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Your still missing the point here a bit Ply, the models in question are available for free to purchasers of the software, of course if purchasers from TS were to think about it they could search out and buy the software and get a load of models on the cheap.
If they were to do this though they would have to figure how to get the model from .x to the propietary format they require the model to be to use it. Which would defeat the purpose in time saving. As you know not all engines can use .x as is.
Take into consideration how long those models have been for sale on there.
As I undersand it, its not always been the case that modeling programs could import .x, most use some kind of externally developed plug in to do so and even then you can end up with a messed up mesh. 3dsMax for instance does have a .x plug-in importer but its buggy and you have to change the mesh to poly simply to get it to display, characters in particular are messy.
When TGC first put up these models for sale they may not have been viable scources as .x format models for sale to the kind of folks who would be buying them and actually .3ds is a much more usable format for these.

If we use the store analogy, most stores offer a loyalty card where prices get knocked down for regular customers all they have to do is ask for it. Not much different from TGC offering their patrons discounts and free goods.

Quote: "The owner doesn't want people buying from the high priced store to know about the store with low prices, because obviously he makes more money from the higher priced store if people think it's a low price in comparison to nearby stores."

Same stores actually do sell products at a higher price, the reason is simple, rates they pay to build, rent are different dependent on area, costs for one can be higher than another, same with TS taking their cut, actual profit is the same so it makes no difference which of te owners stores they buy from, as pointed out some of the creators on there sell at a lower price on their own websites due to having no overheads.
Its not taking advantage of the ignorant, I know for a fact the store across town sells cheaper, but its more convenient for me to go to the local. Simply put it, I dont have the time or inclination to go all the way over there.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 04:02
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I'd agree that it is taking advantage of the ignorant, but business is business.
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Plystire
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 05:38 Edited at: 27th Sep 2010 05:42
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Quote: "In fact; I encourage you to take this argument to Lee and Rick, and let them tell you the reason why. Go ahead; I can see you feel strongly about this. While you're at it, be sure to tell them that you think their business practices are "sleezy". In fact; I'll go ahead and save you the trouble and send Lee the link to this thread."


If I had an inkling of a suspicion that they would take the inquiry seriously and without insult (as it should have been taken to begin with), I would.

I appreciate the thought by sending the thread link to Lee, and if he does wish to take time out of his busy day to discuss the matter with me, I would gladly talk with him about it.

Quote: "Let us know what their response is. Have a great day."


Considering many of my past emails to Lee have not received a reply, I wouldn't count on it. But if Lee or Rick do decide to contact me about the matter, I'll be sure to let you know.

It seems to me that you're under the assumption that TGC will take my comments as personally as you have. To conduct good business, it's unwise to take negative feedback from your customers personally. You should take it seriously and reflect upon it as you would with any other feedback.


@rolfy:

I see what you mean. I don't fully understand the differences between the offered .3ds and .x files. All I know is that I have been successful in converting .x models into a usable format for altering in modelling programs. Again, I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, I am merely stating my opinion from the point of view that I have, which is from a consumer's perspective, one who only uses purchased media as-is for game development.

I am not sure what engines wouldn't support the .x format, but I am supposing that since .x is a DirectX format, then those engines may be developed in OpenGL or the likes. In which case, I can understand, but is the .3ds format supported by a wider range of engines than .x? I don't know about nowadays (since I have long since stopped attempting to use the .3ds format) but the last time I tried using a .3ds model directly in dark basic, there were some issues that were fixed by simply exporting the model as a .x

Quote: "Its not taking advantage of the ignorant, I know for a fact the store across town sells cheaper, but its more convenient for me to go to the local."


That may not be taking advantage of you in particular, but what about those who would have been willing to make the drive if they had only known about the other store?

As for discounts offered by some stores, I don't think that compares to the vast difference in cost between the price on TS and the price in the TGS. Then again, they are different formats, so I could very be comparing a generic soda brand to soda from a more well-known brand, to form an analogy.

Quote: "the models in question are available for free to purchasers of the software, of course if purchasers from TS were to think about it they could search out and buy the software and get a load of models on the cheap."


That is under the assumption that purchasers on TS are aware of the software offering these same models. I highly doubt if someone didn't mind using the .x format, that they would buy from TS knowing they could get far more media for less than the price of a single model on TS, even if they don't plan to use the software it still ends up being an infinitely better deal.


Maybe if I knew just how much better a .3ds file was over a .x file, I could see the difference. Or maybe I'm still missing something here.

Or maybe I should start getting into modeling and sell some models on TS. I could definitely use some extra income.


Quote: "I'd agree that it is taking advantage of the ignorant, but business is business."


So it would seem.


The one and only,


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Errant AI
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 05:40 Edited at: 27th Sep 2010 05:48
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Quote: "(This is, of course, overlooking the fact that TGC does not own TS)"


That's a huge caveat and makes all the difference. It's almost always cheaper to buy something from the source if it's an option.
In TGC's case it's their prerogative to sell stuff off their site for cheaper, in bundles or have give-aways because it's incentive to buy more of the things they sell. You should also be aware that TS now actually recommends prices for different kinds of assets and in some cases may increase the price of an asset if they feel it is too low. At least that's the gist of what I've read.

Quote: "I suppose from a business perspective, what they're doing is good. But from a consumer's perspective, I can't help but say what they're doing is a bit sleezy."


This is probably because you are outside of the target market for Turbosquid. They simply are not a company set up to service hobby and bedroom developers (unlike TGC). Their core market is professional buyers who would be more likely to buy a $45 model than a $1 model because a "cheap" model is off-putting when a "you get what you pay for" mentality is in play. That may be an ignorant way of thinking but if ignorance is bliss then let them be happy if it doesn't affect you personally. If anything, blame the consumer rather than blaming the sellers if they are making ignorant decisions.

I don't know what solution would rectify this in you eyes... maybe if no media at all was included with FPSC and modelpacks cost $200-300 each (that's closer to their actual value after all). Would that be better?

If you think Turbosquid is a ripoff then don't shop there but don't hold TGC to blame because they've done nothing wrong. If it pains you so much to see people paying "high" prices at TS then start a campaign to educate them as to where they can find the assets cheaper. Go compare the price for assets on Garage Games for Torque and even though their demographics are similar, their media is much higher priced.

I just don't understand how TGC's acknowledgment of real-world pricing can be considered sleazy when in fact it's their insanely low pricing (when selling on their own terms) which makes them awesome. We should be thankful DBP, FPSC and it's media support even exists at all. Compared to the money TGC must be making from iPhone apps now, the money from FPSC and DBP is likely chump-change. I have a feeling they keep these products alive for joy more than for money.

x-posted with Ply

Quote: "That is under the assumption that purchasers on TS are aware of the software offering these same models. "


It is TS policy to not have this info available. TGC is lucky to even have their vendor name so similar to their site's name as TS now frowns on that as well (They want a captive audience). Other sites like The 3D Studio allow/encourage 3rd party links in item descriptions but this is banned on TS. After all; TS takes 60% of the sale so they (being the greedy behemoth they are; or simple business-minded people...deending on how you look at it)don't like the idea that someone could sell on their own site for half price (while making more per-sale profit).
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Plystire
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 05:50 Edited at: 27th Sep 2010 05:51
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If TGC's target market is that of a bedroom developer and not that of professional buyers then why are they selling on TS to begin with? If it's not to take advantage of the market buyers and earn more income from them, then what is it?

[EDIT]
(I noticed you're not on MSN, Errant, would have liked to have this discussion more actively with you, since I know you're more into media creation than I am and likely have a stronger grasp on the market than I do)


The one and only,


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Errant AI
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 06:03
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Quote: "If TGC's target market is that of a bedroom developer and not that of professional buyers then why are they selling on TS to begin with? If it's not to take advantage of the market buyers and earn more income from them, then what is it?"


It's just an added source of income, the way I see it. A target market of bedroom developers need not be mutually exclusive to a secondary market of studio developers (a concept I personally fail miserably at grasping).

I've got to run out for some monkey sticks but I'll be back in about an hour and we can chat online Was going to do it before it got dark but got carried away posting
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bond1
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 08:00
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Quote: "Compared to the money TGC must be making from iPhone apps now, the money from FPSC and DBP is likely chump-change. I have a feeling they keep these products alive for joy more than for money."


Yeah, and this saddens me a bit. It's too bad the "Games for Windows" initiative that launched with Vista and DirectX10 didn't take off, pretty much failed in fact. There's something gratifying about sitting down with a souped up computer at night with headphones on and just letting youself get lost in a good game.

I just can't get into the casual gaming thing at all, and that trend makes me worry about the ultimate fate of FPSC.

----------------------------------------
"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
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Plystire
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 08:53
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Welp, I talked it over with Errant and I think we came to the conclusion that it's not worth arguing over. TGC posted those models many years ago and have likely forgotten about them.


The one and only,


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rolfy
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 09:15
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What I meant about the .x format not being so easily imported into modeling program at that time, Max was mainly the program of choice for serious games developers. I didnt mean that 3ds was used for game import but for rigging and animating purposes before export to propietary format.
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Errant AI
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 09:33 Edited at: 27th Sep 2010 09:42
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Quote: "There's something gratifying about sitting down with a souped up computer at night with headphones on and just letting youself get lost in a good game."


Definitely. But even in a community such as this, for every one person with a "souped up" PC, there are probably five people with an obsolete PC.

The mobile/casual market is extremely important for the future of quality gaming, IMO, because it allows for a limited palette of development specs and the development overhead is manageable for small dev. outfits. The low dev costs allow for a lot more freedom of content and gameplay because the risk isn't so high. I think that as mobile specs improve over the years it will allow better gameplay experiences all the while filling some war-chests with the funds to create cool, new, (and most importantly) original titles for PC gamers. It seems like the for the last decade the industry has been in a bit of a rut because indies with original ideas can't get the funding to make cutting-edge, bug-free games and the the big boys don't want to take the financial risk to develop anything original.

I believe the future of FPSC will be ok because as time goes on, the average PC specs get better and more people will be able to make games with good FPS with it. It's nice that now FPSC is tied a bit more to PC specs for speed. FPSC has come so very far in the last four years and I don't think we've seen the plateau yet. Heck, five years from now it'll probably be possible to play FPSC games on a mobile.

Quote: "What I meant about the .x format not being so easily imported into modeling program at that time, Max was mainly the program of choice for serious games developers. I didnt mean that 3ds was used for game import but for rigging and animating purposes before export to propietary format."


Even now-days .3ds is probably much more handy than .x if the TS customer is using the tentacle plugin.
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LeeBamber
TGC Lead Developer
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 15:40
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Hi Guys,

Just been invited to post here with my take on things, but having skimmed the thread it seems the community have pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I suppose the explanation is that TGC wants to build a community and environment where cost is not a barrier to creating games. The models on TS might seem expensive, but it actually costs thousands of dollars to create game art, and having just looked at the TS sales figures, the total revenue since 2003 does not even cover the cost of producing them so all TS customers, far from being taken advantage of, have been getting a pretty good deal.

I agree it would be sleazy to take something that is free (like a piece of litter) and then selling it to an unsuspecting person for $50. Is it also sleazy to take something that is $50 (like a toy) and then give it away to an unsuspecting person for free? What about a product sold in your local store for $50, but can be purchased for $5 if you had a loyalty members card?

I suppose you could argue that all business is sleazy, depending on which side of the relationship you are on. In our dysfunctional case, we make lollipops for pounds and sell them for pence, and in doing so keep the amount of sleaze to an absolute minimum.

I think our greatest sleaze crime is 'bribing' the community with 'heavily' discounted game art, but I'm fine with that. We strive to remove all barriers to entry, which means making tools that are easier, more flexible and less expensive.

Finally, if providing our hard working community super heavy discounts is wrong, I don't wanna be right! Anyone guessing which movie that came from gets a discount

I drink tea, and in my spare time I write software.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 16:09
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In the end it does all come down to business, whether you try to make it sound like it's for the good of the regular customers or not (those more business-minded people will know that it's not).

Quote: "I agree it would be sleazy to take something that is free (like a piece of litter) and then selling it to an unsuspecting person for $50. Is it also sleazy to take something that is $50 (like a toy) and then give it away to an unsuspecting person for free? What about a product sold in your local store for $50, but can be purchased for $5 if you had a loyalty members card?"


Your analogy makes no sense, in fact it's completely backwards. It's like giving it away for free to everyone and charging an unsuspecting person $50.
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Tombsville
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 16:33
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@Benjamin

What is being said is that, its not so much a case as having an item that is of little value being sold at a ridiculous price so much as having a high value item being sold for so little to those who are members of the community.

TGC isn't "giving it away for free to everyone" so much as giving those exclusive to the community a fantastic break on items.

Those who are not part of the community simply pay full price.

If anything, TGC is taking a hit on losing revenue on what it COULD be charging the community.

We support the software and community and are rewarded with ridiculously low prices on items offered in the store.

Windows XP Home, AMD Athlon 64x2 Dual Core Processor @ 2.61 GHz, 3.00 GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 8500GT
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bond1
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 16:58 Edited at: 27th Sep 2010 17:00
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I can't believe Lee and his valuable time had to be dragged into this.

I also can't believe that overtly derogatory terms like "sleazy" are being thrown around toward a company that provides models WAY below market value to help foster a community. Then to turn around and attack them when they charge the actual industry-standard rate to those willing to pay it.

I sold my Model Pack 18 fantasy characters in a different format to a Torque user for $300, he didn't want them in .X format, he wanted them in FBX to modify them more easily. And he was absolutely ECSTATIC to get those characters at that price. Does that make me sleazy too?

----------------------------------------
"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
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Benjamin
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 17:17 Edited at: 27th Sep 2010 17:17
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Just to be clear, I'm not criticising what TGC are doing.

Quote: "TGC isn't "giving it away for free to everyone" so much as giving those exclusive to the community a fantastic break on items."


You have to ask yourself why a company would do this. It you think it's for any reason other than business reasons (whether directly or indirectly - such as nurturing the community so that they will have more customers to buy their products), then I believe you are naive to the way business works.

Quote: "If anything, TGC is taking a hit on losing revenue on what it COULD be charging the community."


Again, why aren't they charging the community? Maybe because they can't (since this is a budget game development community!), or maybe because they want to nurture it to increase their consumer base.

I'm not saying what they are doing is wrong (since what is ethical is subjective), just that business is what fuels their decisions, just as any other company.
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Tombsville
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 17:44 Edited at: 27th Sep 2010 17:54
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Quote: "You have to ask yourself why a company would do this."


Why? Because companies make business decisions.

Quote: "Again, why aren't they charging the community?"


The members of the community have (hopefully) made SOME sort of purchase (a BUSINESS transaction) already and receive benefits/rewards from said purchases/sales ( a BUSINESS transaction) in the form of discounts for future sales/purchases (BUSINESS transactions).

Final thought on the subject...

Windows XP Home, AMD Athlon 64x2 Dual Core Processor @ 2.61 GHz, 3.00 GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 8500GT
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BlackFox
FPSC Master
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 18:19
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Quote: "
That's almost down right sleezy in my book. That's just taking advantage of the ignorant."


One could also direct that comment in your direction. You charged $28 USD for the PB mod that has ended up being integrated into FPSC. Does that mean we as purchasers of PB are ignorant? Does that mean your decision and practice is sleezy as well?

Quote: "
I can't believe Lee and his valuable time had to be dragged into this.

I also can't believe that overtly derogatory terms like "sleazy" are being thrown around toward a company that provides models WAY below market value to help foster a community. Then to turn around and attack them when they charge the actual industry-standard rate to those willing to pay it."


I agree. Personally, Lee owes no explanation nor does he need to justify the decisions made. There are some here that have no clue as far as business operations or the daily decisions/struggles that we business owners make every day. TGC sells their models at a rate that everyone can afford here, and sell them higher elsewhere, that is called business and is their decision to make.

I wonder if people would complain this loudly, or toss the insults if TGC made the models free here and charged on other sites.

- BlackFox

RPG Mod- Create a world full of adventure
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The Storyteller 01
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 18:20 Edited at: 27th Sep 2010 18:21
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OK guys, I am no native english speaker but usually I understand even the *weird* stuff.

But I have to admit that while I know the term "Garage Band" I never ever heard of "Bedroom Developers" - at least not in conjunction with computer games

Is this really commonly used or has it just been born out of this thread?

In case you find my grammar and spelling weird ---> native German speaker ^^
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Metal Devil123
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 20:29
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Quote: "It you think it's for any reason other than business reasons "

Why would a company need another reason than a busines reason?

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anayar
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 20:33
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Quote: "Bedroom Developers"

Non-Pro/ Hobby Developers... Term derives from the view that most of them create games from their bedrooms

Cheers,
Anayar

P.S: Interesting discussion BTW, learned a little too.


For KeithC
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Nbt
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 21:33
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Yeah bedroom developers has been a common term for years and years, from the early boom of Sinclair, Commodore etc home computers.

Many of the big names we know today were one of them bedroom coders of old

On Topic: The models on TS are quite a bit different to the subsidised ones we get with FPSc, as the TS ones have LoD meshes etc from what I could see. So I really can't see any problem with the price they are sold at to be honest

rolfy pack, rolfy pack, we all need a rolfy pack
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 21:49
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Quote: "If they were to do this though they would have to figure how to get the model from .x to the propietary format they require the model to be to use it. Which would defeat the purpose in time saving. As you know not all engines can use .x as is."


Converting .X to PSK is nigh impossible on any complex skeletal mesh from FPSC. I think it'd Fragmotion's fault, but I don't know if they were broken to start with...

7045 Forum Messages
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It's been a good three years.
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Tombsville
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 22:13
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Quote: "bedroom developers has been a common term for years and years, from the early boom of Sinclair, Commodore etc home computers."


ok, now i feel old...

Windows XP Home, AMD Athlon 64x2 Dual Core Processor @ 2.61 GHz, 3.00 GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 8500GT
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Nbt
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 23:31
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Quote: "ok, now i feel old..."


Nah judging by your photo in your avatar, you don't look a day over 190

rolfy pack, rolfy pack, we all need a rolfy pack
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Tombsville
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Posted: 28th Sep 2010 00:19
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Quote: "Nah judging by your photo in your avatar, you don't look a day over 190"


That was taken 10 years ago!

Windows XP Home, AMD Athlon 64x2 Dual Core Processor @ 2.61 GHz, 3.00 GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 8500GT
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Daniel wright 2311
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Posted: 28th Sep 2010 01:22
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well, there allowed to sell there products any where they wish for as much as they wish,but, trully, If I knew nothing of fpsc, and bought them from there, then found fpsc latter knowing I bought it for more, I would ask for my money back in a heart beat. but in all relistic mesures, there not worth what they are asking for on turbo squid. $80 id alot for one modle that is way to low poly and has problems with the texture.see here in the piture, this modle is $80 and it is a horrible modle all together. so yes we cant get good quality modles for less then what turbo squid charges, but for the quality here, lol, please.

my signature keeps being erased by a mod So this is my new signature.
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michael x
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Posted: 28th Sep 2010 03:20
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the lesson from this is become a smart buyer. I have known this for a long time so it nothing new to me. there are other website you can buy models but the price is high.but if your pockets are low stick with tgc.but there are other models at tgc that are sold in another website. it just business.

more than what meets the eye

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