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FPSC Classic Product Chat / FPSC Development Computers

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Dillionaire
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 03:14 Edited at: 10th Feb 2011 00:42
Hello, Forum!

I'm quite new here, as this is my very first post in the forum, but I'll get straight to the point.

I am a computer building enthusiast. Always have been for as long as I can remember. Something just appealed to me about building a computer I can call my own and popping in Far Cry or Crysis to see how much I can squeeze of my system.

From reading various posts on this forum, many users appear to lack a solid development PC for creating their games. Usually, people have older computers that have dated hardware that just doesn't have the horsepower to push FPSC to its full potential. Other times, users' hardware doesn't even fully support FPSC shaders, such as dated ATI graphics cards.

I really like FPSCx9, and it is a joy to make games with it. It would mean a lot to me to help this community out in any way possible. That said, I've thought about offering my services to the community in a unique way. I would be overjoyed to develop a standard FPSC computer that would provide developers and tinkerers with the power they need to make games, and also represent the average user's PC for performance testing.

I am not saying I will do this immediately, as there is a lot of paperwork and agreements to be made with The Game Creators, but for now, I'd just like to know if any of you out there find this idea worthy of being made a reality.

I've done a little messing around for the past hour or so, and I've put together a theoretical build. Not only will it take care of FPSC needs, but it is a nice computer as well!

FPSC Development PC:
CPU: AMD Phenom II x4 920 @ 2.8 GHz (Quad-Core)
GPU: nVidia GT 9800 (Possibly mildly overclocked)
RAM: Corsair 4 GB, DDR3 1333 MHz (Dual Channel)
HDD: 500 GB Western Digital Caviar Black Harddrive, 7,200 RPM
MOBO: To be determined.
PSU: 500W Antec Power Supply
Optical: CD/DVD Drive
Wifi Card: Yes
Case: Xion CyborGX Gaming (Black w/red LEDs)

Altogether, I'd sell each machine at $500 apiece. Keep in mind, this is not a current offer, by a possible idea. What do you guys think? Any enthusiasts wanna voice their opinions?

Thanks for your time, and also, if this thread is misplaced, please do whatever is necessary, Mods.

My Computer Specifications: Intel i7 980x OC @ 4.2 GHz |3x GTX 580's in SLI | 12 GB, 2000 MHz RAM (Corsair) |2x 1 TB HDD | 1.2 KW PSU |ASUS Rampage III Extreme Motherboard
BedsideReaper
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 09:49
Wow, you'd really sell all of this for 500 a piece? That's pretty cool, man. lol

"I think I'm getting the 'Black Lung,' pop."

"Derrick, you've been down there for one day."
crispex
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 17:52
I'm not sure, you'd have to do a lot of legal work. For example, you'd have to get permission from each part manufacturer to sell their parts as part of a "bundle".

Not to mention, you'd have to have a customer care team standing by during business hours in order to keep customers satisfied. I myself am skeptical of buying pre-build PC's, regardless of the specs.

I just now realized I've had a typo in my signature for the past 3 years.
xplosys
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Playing: FPSC Multiplayer Games
Posted: 5th Feb 2011 18:14
Quote: "For example, you'd have to get permission from each part manufacturer to sell their parts as part of a "bundle"."


Not where I come from, but there is a lot to it.

If I'm going to spend $500.00 for something, I want a warranty. As an enthusiast, you couldn't really offer a valid warranty or an invoice that would allow the end user the ability to return parts which fail.

Shipping systems across the states or pond is expensive and shipping them individually almost guarantees damage. If UPS can pick it up, they will throw it! Guaranteed.

As crispex said, support would require additional personnel.

Perhaps the biggest obstacle is that you'll never beat the local BIG store price for a comparable system.

Just a note on dev systems. I find it better to dev on my 2/3 year old system, just to make sure that my product will run OK on the end users system.

Brian.

... and the band played on.
Dillionaire
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 18:18
@BedsideReaper Thanks! Although I may need to alter the specs a bit. From the research I've done today, most people have a bit earlier generation computers, so I may adjust the graphics to the 200 series and the CPU to an older Core 2 Quad series.

@crispex I completely agree with you. Should this endeavor prove to be worth anyone's time, I will have a lawyer to help me with negotiations. For now, this is more of a, shall we say, "thought experiment" to see if this would be feasible. I'd need to know demand for the computers, and also what TGC would recommend as far as specifications for the perfect balance between development and testing hardware. And, of course, to keep the price range within reasonable boundaries.

As far as customer care, the first thing that comes to mind is these very forums! Naturally, there would be a few kinks to work out, but judging by the support from everyone here, I think a section could be created for this purpose.

From my past experiences with the likes of eVGA and other companies, they seem to be very accepting of deals such as this. Also, I know where you're coming from about pre-built PC's. It brings metaphorical tears to my eyes when I see HP selling someone a computer with atrocious hardware and marketing it as a high quality machine. Their logo is all they're good for. So, to accomodate for this, a lot of planning would be put into the design of the computers, and I think what I've already listed qualifies as a budget gaming PC.

My Computer Specifications: Intel i7 980x OC @ 4.2 GHz |3x GTX 580's in SLI | 12 GB, 2000 MHz RAM (Corsair) |2x 1 TB HDD | 1.2 KW PSU |ASUS Rampage II Extreme Motherboard
Dillionaire
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 18:25
@xplosys I must agree with you on that one. UPS and FedEx have a pretty bad reputation for...less than careful handling of their cargo. The expense of it, combined with the risk of shipping is quite an obstacle, I must admit. But the headroom of the price I'm working around could slightly offset it, I think.

However, name-brand companies rarely offer an up to snuff computer to compare with what I'm planning on. Like I said before, logos don't do much for anyone. And I completely understand what you mean about your dev system. I said to earlier, I'll be lowering the specs to better represent the everyday gamer, so it will represent the masses.

Remember guys, this is all speculation at the moment. As time goes by, I just want to see if it would be a good investment to have a TGC endorsed development PC.

My Computer Specifications: Intel i7 980x OC @ 4.2 GHz |3x GTX 580's in SLI | 12 GB, 2000 MHz RAM (Corsair) |2x 1 TB HDD | 1.2 KW PSU |ASUS Rampage II Extreme Motherboard
crispex
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 18:52
You shouldn't rely on the forums to handle your company's problems. Sorry, but that's just bad business practice. You'll have to move beyond the "webs.com" website, and you'll have to invest in some knowledgeable employees.

I just now realized I've had a typo in my signature for the past 3 years.
Dillionaire
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 19:11
I'd rather not share much about my personal business. This is a side project, and I've recently hired a website designer to make a site in the future. Right now, that business is brick and mortar. Here, I'm focused on this only. I'm not saying this is going to happen, I'm not saying it won't. Don't point out lack of employees or other things of that nature. This is just for me to get a general idea of what could happen.

My Computer Specifications: Intel i7 980x OC @ 4.2 GHz |3x GTX 580's in SLI | 12 GB, 2000 MHz RAM (Corsair) |2x 1 TB HDD | 1.2 KW PSU |ASUS Rampage II Extreme Motherboard
That Guy John
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 19:46
Don't let skeptics feed your' already weary mind. It is rough for any business start up that doesn't have corporate backing or a rich uncle.

This isn't advice about your particular case, but more so for your own mind set when it comes to business.

Crispex is right though, openly discussing things like this is not good for business.

If you have struggles within about pursuing your own business, I suggest reading "The Hidden Millionaire". Yes, it comes from one of those guys that pop up on late night infomercials, but I highly recommend this book. It will probibly come with a bonus pack with other books and deals, (just look past to fluff) but "The Hidden Millionaire" is the gem from this guy. He tells his story a bit, but more importantly tells about focus, mind set, who to surround yourself with and how to carry yourself day to day.

I can't give credit to reading just a book, but it helped with the mind set that pulled me out of a massive debt. It is actually easy to get up to zero, it's pushing past zero and keeping it that way that is hard.

This post is out of place, I know. But I really hate to see anyone with business ideas in there head get discouraged. Just always know it isn't going to be easy and people will not support you.
charger bandit
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 21:09
You should swap the processor to a Intel i5 and the graphic card to Geforce 400 series.


Dillionaire
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 21:20
@charger bandit Yes, that would be preferable, but not everyone has a 400 series card, and using that coupled with an Intel Core i5 would put me way over the $500 cap I'm trying to work within.

My Computer Specifications: Intel i7 980x OC @ 4.2 GHz |3x GTX 580's in SLI | 12 GB, 2000 MHz RAM (Corsair) |2x 1 TB HDD | 1.2 KW PSU |ASUS Rampage III Extreme Motherboard
crispex
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 22:04
Well, I'm not trying to be rude and arrogant, it's just that getting a business started is tough. I've failed 2 times at getting a business running, and I know how tough it can be. People asked me these questions and told me what would need to be done, I, like you, tried to ignore the facts, and I ended up blowing over $3000 and never got anywhere.

And you really shouldn't discuss your business plans on a public forum. I know you want to get a general idea of who would be interested, but placing your system specs and whatnot could bring unwanted competition.

You're going to need a legal team, any proper licenses, etc. You'll need a considerably better website, etc.

Don't take this as us being rude, we just don't want to see a decent idea fail.

I just now realized I've had a typo in my signature for the past 3 years.
Bugsy
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 22:24
the powersupply is a little bit underpowered, don't you think?

maybe I'd go with slapping a 600watt in there.

imageflock.com/img/1272671763.jpg[/img]
skype = isaacpreston. I want to talk to YOU
That Guy John
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 22:52
Quote: "getting a business started is tough"

No doubt, I second that.

Quote: "blowing over $3000"

Not doubting that hurt your pockets and they are probably still screaming from it, but that is a drop in the bucket for business.
One of my buddies for example, he has a flooring install repair and cleaning business. If you aren't aware yet, the housing market isn't on the up-nup.(in the US) This reflects what real estate companies and home owners pay for work to be done. (not to mention illegal immigrants working for fractions of the cost, but I won't go into that)
All equipment, vehicles, establishing credit with material suppliers, getting the home office running, converting the garage to a shop.. totaled over $130k in the first year. just for him to be bringing in roughly $4k a month for himself. I helped him get everything going and bailed on him after the second year (as far as the business goes anyways, that's another story though)

Quote: "You're going to need a legal team, any proper licenses, etc. You'll need a considerably better website, etc."

He is right, just pace yourself and find to proper steps.
For instance, to become a licensed dealer / warranty shop for an electronics manufacture.. lets say HP or Toshiba, you need to carry on hand around $25k of that brands product. (This was a couple years ago, I have looked into doing something similar as well)

Quote: "don't want to see a decent idea fail"

I don't think any of us want to see anyone fail. I just think we see so many "fly-by-nights" come and go, it is hard to take someone seriously. But this is where keeping things like this to yourself comes in. Its saves you the discouragement.

Some References for you to start reading: (if you don't mind me suggesting)

http://www.kauffman.org (I also think they still send out one of there books just for signing up to their newsletter, it is a collection of essays from start up owners and professors)

http://www.entrepreneur.com/smbresourcecenter

Also, look for government resources not just government money but information as well.

Find out where the local and state wide business owners hangout and have their monthly and quarterly shindigs and just show up and start talking to people.

Don't be afraid of going to your local Chamber Of Commerce and find out what they can do to help out with exposure and most of all to get what you want from your local community, get involved with local activities. Fairs, meetings, the whole shebang. Even it is to just show your face. Business owners go to these things to rub elbows, pass out business cards, network and brag about their business. Get involved with these people even if they shrug you off the first few times. Eventually someone will open up to you as long as you are showing your own progress.

Oh, a quick little tip. For random products if you have them. Privately owned convenient stores and markets will sell anything if they can make a profit.

Good luck to you and keep your head on the up-nup.
Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 6th Feb 2011 01:13
My only real advice is that you get a PSU and to a lesser extent, a motherboard that you'll be able to rely on for another 4+ years. I made the mistake of getting the bare minimum in those two pieces of hardware and am hurting for it now because in order to upgrade any further I need to pretty much buy a whole new system.
Bugsy
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Posted: 6th Feb 2011 16:29
same.



imageflock.com/img/1272671763.jpg[/img]
skype = isaacpreston. I want to talk to YOU
Dillionaire
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Posted: 10th Feb 2011 00:41
Okay, I will change the PSU to 500W. Remember, the intent here is for modest upgradeability. Any changes to the machine after purchase would alter testing and development conditions.

My Computer Specifications: Intel i7 980x OC @ 4.2 GHz |3x GTX 580's in SLI | 12 GB, 2000 MHz RAM (Corsair) |2x 1 TB HDD | 1.2 KW PSU |ASUS Rampage III Extreme Motherboard
Scurvy Lobster
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Posted: 10th Feb 2011 08:12
I don't get it. Why go into the computer hardware business where there is soooo much competition? You can buy a decent FPSC-able pc anywhere dirt cheap.

I run FPSC fine on my nearly-4 year old laptop. In fact it's the one I am making my current game on. One should never make a game on a high end pc since they don't reflect what end users have. Most gamers have rather old pc's with low end hardware. You should design your game so that it runs well on these machines too.

I cannot imagine anyone really needing to buy your custom FPSC friendly pc's when they can just use any pc on the market. It's a small niche market anyway so you are likely not to sell a single machine on that account.

That Guy John
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Posted: 11th Feb 2011 00:26
Quote: "computer hardware business where there is soooo much competition"

On that same note, why do you make games or game media? Is there not competition out there?
Scurvy Lobster
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Posted: 11th Feb 2011 07:25
A pc is a pc is a pc... Since nearly any pc will run FPSC fine you can't really build a business on branding yourself as having purpose built machines for it.

In games you can easily differentiate yourself from others and simply bypass the competition by doing what others don't. Be it gameplay, graphics, audio, story etc.

If you produce regular potato games then of course you will probably suffer in the fierce competition. Every business today is tough but pc hardware might just be one of the worst.

bond1
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Posted: 11th Feb 2011 09:22 Edited at: 11th Feb 2011 09:31
I actually think it's a great idea. A quick look at all the threads asking "why is FPSC lagging" or "why doesn't this effect work", shows that many users have no idea what their computer is capable of.

Quote: "Most gamers have rather old pc's with low end hardware."


I kind of disagree with that. A quick look at the latest Steam hardware survey shows that most gamers have a Geforce 8800/9800, which is hardly low-end. These are gaming-grade GPU's.

Most gamers who fervently play FPS games know that they are usually the most graphically demanding games on the market that push the envelope technologically. PC gamers anyway, are usually going to have at least a midrange gaming-grade GPU, and will know the difference between a GPU marketed for gaming and one marketed for HTPC's.

This forum is the exception though, because I think you have a lot of people who are young and new to PC gaming. So a prebuilt system could be a good solution for those who are too intimidated to build their own. And it's very difficult nowadays to buy an off-the-shelf PC with a good graphics card. I was at Best Buy the other day and they didn't carry a single darn desktop system with a dedicated gaming GPU.

"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
SPECS: Windows7 x64, Intel Core i7 920, Geforce GTX 580, 6GB RAM
Scurvy Lobster
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Posted: 11th Feb 2011 11:33
My desktop pc has a GF8800 card and I am very pleased with its performance. It's a three year old pc now so not really state of the art any longer.

Quote: "I was at Best Buy the other day and they didn't carry a single darn desktop system with a dedicated gaming GPU."

Now that is quite shocking actually.

From my viewpoint the best thing is still to try to optimize your game to run on old or slow hardware since there are so many pc's with low end hardware. I don't expect many high-end AAA gamers to pay much attention to my FPSC games anyway but I might get some love from other segments.

Nazareth Entertainment
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Posted: 11th Feb 2011 13:29
Quote: "From my viewpoint the best thing is still to try to optimize your game to run on old or slow hardware since there are so many pc's with low end hardware. I don't expect many high-end AAA gamers to pay much attention to my FPSC games anyway but I might get some love from other segments.
"

my viewpoint egsactly, with clever design and paced levels, we can make games that can be played on office pc's, thats where the market is, coz no one wants to spend a grand on a pc, just to play crysis on it, but our company (addicted to bullets) is focusing on making games for the general pc user, so they can play it on a system that is made for rolercoaster tycoon we build our games on laptops so that when running them, we know for a fact everyone can play the game, and the people who have good systems will be very pleased with the 60 fps that is possible when building games in this way

Nothing wrong with 25 fps tho :L

Deathkon 3000
Dillionaire
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Posted: 12th Feb 2011 00:06
@bond1 Thank you! That's what I was getting at, because almost all the threads like the ones you named involve people with older ATI hardware that doesn't support things like Pixel Shader 3.0, or the reason their game runs extremely slow is because their integrated graphics can't handle it.

About the quote, I must agree with you. That was a poor choice of words on my part. I used the word "gamer" when I should have meant the "average user." The word "gamer" by definition puts those people in a different bracket! So, to rephrase, the average user of FPSC doesn't own a custom built computer, nor do they have the 4 or 5 grand to spend on building one like I did, so they usually have an Ol' Faithful running Windows XP, maybe with an AGP graphics controller and an Athlon processor. These were pretty common when FPSC first took off, but since then those machines won't get a stable 30+ framerate. And don't get me started on laptops.

For you others, your point about why someone would buy a computer like this is easily argued. First of all, the computer is supposed to be a compromise between a development machine and a testing machine. With a 9800, it is by no means a AAA "gaming" machine anymore. A 9800 can't run Metro 2033, nor Crysis on Very High, and doesn't support DX11 Depth of Field and Tesselation. It is legacy hardware by todays standards, but is still a cheap viable option for FPSC, because of its DX9 engine.

In addition, I saw an HP computer a few months ago that had an Intel Core 2 Quad @2.5 GHz (That wasn't overclockable with a locked BIOS), 8 GB of DDR2 800 Mhz RAM, a 500 GB HDD, and an ATI Radeon 4650 Low Profile (crap!) for $1,200. My computer I've listed above blows the roof off of that computer for LESS than HALF the price. Prebuilt brand-names rip you off so much, it makes my head spin. So, there is no competition when I can build a better computer for less than half the price, and still have room for a monitor, speakers, cables, and software.

My Computer Specifications: Intel i7 980x OC @ 4.2 GHz |3x GTX 580's in SLI | 12 GB, 2000 MHz RAM (Corsair) |2x 1 TB HDD | 1.2 KW PSU |ASUS Rampage III Extreme Motherboard
crispex
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Posted: 12th Feb 2011 06:56
Well, I really only see basic hardware with a nice packaging. You could cut cost by eliminating the ridiculous cases with the LED lights. To me, spending money on a case with LED's is just more crap that can break and become useless at one point. (No offense to anyone who likes these cases.)

As for a 9800, I have an 8800 that runs Cryis on high. Metro 2033 shouldn't be really used as a graphical achievement, not to mention the game sucked. Very few games use DirectX 11, as of right now. Microsoft didn't perfect DirectX 10, which leads me to my next point: There are still newer cards that lack in full 100% DirectX 10 support.

As for low-profile's being crap, I assume it's because you assume any graphics card with a heat sink is crap, which is the furthest thing from the truth possible. First of all, I would NEVER put another ATI card into my PC, not after my bad experience with driver support. TGC would never endorse anything not riddled full of Nvidia GPU's, so don't even bother.

And if your PC's were as great as you make them seem, why would you even NEED to overclock?

Without causing flame wars, your PC's simply are your average budget builds that can be found cheaper than you're offering them. Your main selling point is honestly the case, and the idea that it's "custom built", which it's really not. Any PC that isn't built by the owner is technically "pre-built".

I can't really see what you offer that people can't get on there own. Most likely you'll charge bit over to make a profit (naturally), then you'll charge for shipping (usually outrageous prices in order to pocket a bit more). No offense, but your strategy isn't exactly going to appeal to wiser members who realize the price of the hardware doesn't justify the price you're throwing up. All these parts can be acquired throughout various sites, if you look you can build the same rig for about $400.

I just now realized I've had a typo in my signature for the past 3 years.
Dillionaire
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Posted: 12th Feb 2011 23:12
@crispex The reason I chose the case is because it looks nice, would fit all the parts, and its $60 dollars. You can't beat $60, and because it look so nice, this could double as a buyer's personal computer.

An 8800 GTX plays Crysis at 1920x1080 on High with no Anti-Aliasing or Anisiotropic Filtering at an average of 24.1 frames per second. This is not playable in a First Person Shooter, ask any PC gamer. A 9800 GTX plays it at 30.1 fps. This is playable, and Crysis handles well at this framerate. Secondly, an 8800 runs you 300 dollars with a simple Google search, because it is legacy. A 9800 runs you 50-75 dollars, so you tell me which is better?

Metro 2033 and Crysis are graphics benchmarks, as they are in every video card review nowadays. And I didn't say that DirectX 10 was needed, FPSC is X9, so...what's your point?

About low profile cards...what are you talking about? Heat sinks aren't bad at all, and the Radeon 4650 isn't crap because its low profile, that has nothing to do with it! I call it crap because it IS crap! It can't run Fallout 3 on MEDIUM, which says a lot. Next, the card is so factory underclocked that its sad! You can clock it in MSI Afterburner to its limit, which is the very right of the sliders, and the card won't fail. Plus, it's 512 MB VRAM is quite subpar, and last but not least, let's not forget about those CCC drivers. I doubt ATI drivers could run a coffee machine! Don't make assumptions, because I know what I'm talking about. I never said heat sinks were bad, because uh, that's what cools CPUs!

About overclocking...the case I chose has several fans, so airflow keeps everything cool. There's no reason NOT to overclock a processor or a graphics card. The performance gain you get has hardly any negatives that can't be argued. In fact, in my testing, an overclocked GTX 460 is faster than a stock 470, which means you could save $80! HP proprietary BIOS's don't allow overclocking, and a 2.5 GHz computer seems so underpowered. Pushing it to 3.0 GHz makes a big difference, and if the end user isn't given option to do that, he/she is being cheated.

My computers can't be found cheaper. Like Bond1 and I said, if you go to Sam's Club or Best Buy, all the computers there will either not have dedicated graphics or just plain sub-par hardware. Not to mention all that pre-loaded crapware that adornes your desktop. My selling point is that you get a BETTER computer for LESS than HALF the price! If I was marketing it for the case, I would have put a picture up, wouldn't I?

"If you look you can build the same rig for about $400."

You act as if EVERYONE here can build a computer, or has the time to do it. So what if you can build it cheaper, if you can you wouldn't come to this thread. My computers would provide a MUCH cheaper option than going HP or Dell. The parts, my time and labor, and the shipping is all included in that $500.

I think you need to think your arguments through a bit more. Your underanalysis appalls me. And, I must ask, why are you arguing these points with me? You have nothing to gain except to appear more intellegent and versed in these matters. A pity, really.

My Computer Specifications: Intel i7 980x OC @ 4.2 GHz |3x GTX 580's in SLI | 12 GB, 2000 MHz RAM (Corsair) |2x 1 TB HDD | 1.2 KW PSU |ASUS Rampage III Extreme Motherboard
crispex
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Posted: 13th Feb 2011 13:29
The human eye can only distinguish and interpret 29.1 frames per second. So yes, 24 would appear jittery at times, but only during explosions or large particles. It's a known fact that Crysis wasn't exactly optimized the best. Not to mention, not all games play the same. It heavily depends on whether or not the developer optimized the game correctly. For example, Call of Duty games are well known for their optimization (when Infinity Ward makes the game, that is). However, Sim City Societies ran like garbage even on the most top of the line computers. Minecraft is another example. Minecraft has graphics, but due to it being optimized poorly, on top of having a custom terrain generation every step (not a bad idea in theory, but terrible in practice), makes it one hell of a laggy game at times.

As for graphics cards, I've NEVER seen any card review that used Metro 2033 as a "benchmark" for a card. I've seen Crysis, but never Metro 2033. Crysis, again, was rather poorly optimized, so unless you have dual SLI / CrossFire cards, chances are it's going to run like crap on even the highest systems. And face it, not many people have $700 to be throwing around for dual graphics cards. The HD 4650 isn't "crap" just because it can't play Crysis, the HD line of cards are geared towards media box's more than anything. I strongly advise against ever using ATI cards to begin with, due to poor driver support.

In the world of dual / quad core processing, 2.5 GHz isn't bad. In all honesty, they could do away with including the clock rate, because most people see it as an upper hand. If clock rate was so important, why is it that you can find a dual core 1.8 GHz more expensive than a Pentium IV 3.2 GHz? Because in this day, it's irrelevant. The clock rate measure was primarily to measure single cores. I can play Crysis on low on my HP NC6400, which has a 1.8 GHz processor, and Intel GMA 950 integrated graphics. That doesn't really say much for people who invest thousands in gaming desktops, when a 3 year old laptop can play a game that many budget builds simply cannot.

In regards to your overclocking claims, you've obviously got no idea what overclocking does. First, cooling is only part of what you need to do in order to make sure you're running a stable overclocked build. Cooling is the bare minimum. You also need to know about your processor architecture, its limits, etc. All too many times I have friends and family coming to me asking me why their computer won't start / runs very slow after they tried overclocking it. Most people jack it up as high as possible, which is EXTREMELY unstable. You're only supposed to overclock a small amount, not a huge extreme. Again, if your build is far superior to any other budget build, why would you need to overclock it?

As for found cheaper, you're 100% correct. If you go into any commercial store, they don't even sell cheap gaming budget builds (your PC in reality is a budget build), simply because they are selling NAME BRANDED COMPUTERS. Instead of selling PC's that are made of all different parts and such, such as custom builds, they sell a general PC package with everything thrown together for you. Most people work with this, because most people don't participate in development / competitive gaming.

As for everyone being able to build a computer, I agree. Most people can't. Most people couldn't tell you one thing about computer hardware, which is why your builds would be good for people, but you're targeting a largely hardware based community, meaning most of us floating around these forums generally know how to assemble a computer. As for shipping, I paid $30 to have my PC + parts shipped to me. I built my rig with about $940, but that's because I put in some better hardware. Regardless, the same build would cost me $1320 if I bought one pre-built. As for "time and labor", it's not exactly a physical or mental feat to be able to build a computer. I put in a motherboard, installed a power supply, installed a processor / thermal paste / heat sink / fan, installed the RAM, Blu-Ray drive, 2x 1tb hard disks, graphics card, wireless PCI card, and all the bits in between in 40 minutes. Sure, it can vary from time to time, but I was honestly taking my time when building to ensure all parts were installed correctly and were not broken. I'm not trying to say my PC building skills are superior to yours, because anyone who has a basic understanding of building PC's can do it, I'm simply saying "labor" isn't really even a factor in the matter. I could see if you were building over 40 PC's a day, but 1-8 (which is what I'd assume you'd be doing during a day, at most), you should be able to knock them out in a few hours.

My arguments are based on basic common knowledge. I'm not saying you're not a good choice when it comes to PC building, because you are, but only if you don't have the skills / time needed to sit down and build a PC.

I just now realized I've had a typo in my signature for the past 3 years.

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