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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Too much graphic fetish, not enough innovation?

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Caveman1985
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 00:05
Hey everybody! I would like to start a discussion here and like to get your input. First of all let me state that I love this fpsc programme. It's despite some minor flaws a dream come true. By now it's graphics are quite impressive, matching those of games like F.E.A.R for example. But, let's face it, most of us are not expert modelers, scripters or artists of any kind. and despite all the work experienced users put in it, we will never achieve the graphical level of modern games. But that's ok, if we just focused on what really mattered: unique ideas and storylines, gameplay! But no, I read thread after thread about somebodies graphical gimmics and if somebody showcases a game 90% of them are dark pictures in dark hallways in a "horror" setting that is just scary because i can't see where the flip I'm going and stop playing out of frustration. Why don't we just say okay, I know this is not going to be Crysis 3, but I have this really cool idea that will make this game fun nonetheless. Me personally, I don't give a rat's ass about graphics. My favorite game of all time is Anachronox! So please, people, stop thinking so much about graphics and focus more on gameplay, writing and story! That's my 50 cent. I'd like to hear your opinions now!

Kind regards, Caveman

PS. I don't want to diss anyone. If I was to aggressive right now, I had one too many Vodka Energies!

Tissues - The footprint of the lonely man
Wolf
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 00:14
Quote: "But no, I read thread after thread about somebodies graphical gimmics and if somebody showcases a game 90% of them are dark pictures in dark hallways in a "horror" setting that is just scary because i can't see where the flip I'm going and stop playing out of frustration."


Yeah right...another one of these discussions, like we haven't had a dozen of 'em already.

Why don't you focus on those of us who really work on serious projects for a while now? None of them are what you just described.

The people who make those horrorgames are younger and still learning to use FPSCreator. They might come up with something new sooner or later just let them experiment.

Browsing through the first page of the work in progress site leads me to at least 5 really cool games and I guess thats already awesome as we are all just amateurs.



-Wolf

God Helps the Beast in Me!
Kravenwolf
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 00:33 Edited at: 13th Apr 2011 00:37
Quote: "we will never achieve the graphical level of modern games."


Not a lot of small indie developers do; but that doesn't mean they settle for less than what they have to work with.


Quote: "stop thinking so much about graphics and focus more on gameplay, writing and story!"


Quote: "Crysis 3"


Actually, I know quite a few people that have said the same thing about Crysis. Anyway, agree more time spent on gameplay would be a nice addition to the games around here, but I'm going to estimate that around 85% of the users that start a thread in the WIP board either don't know how to script or only know the very basics of scripting; and therefore can't really add anything innovative to the gameplay. And then there are additions such as animated/scripted events that also can't be done due to the developers unable to make those animations.

Of course they can add simple and already provided gameplay additions such as keys and etc; but as Wolf said; a majority of the userbase here are simply younger members that are just eager to start making a game and shoot some zombehs. If you want a "better seasoned" game, then you just have to search threads from the more seasoned developers here;


http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=179813&b=25

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=154190&b=25


EDIT:
On a related note, do you have any works in progress that you'd be willing to share with us that demonstrate first hand a game with better gameplay and story?


Kravenwolf

DarkJames
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 01:14
Crysis 3

You're from the future!

Caveman1985
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 01:36
Okay, I'm probalby more of the Escapist kind of gamer - as bugsy would put it. And I know that there are graphically impressive games out there. For example I was awed by the Alpha Project demo. But my point is, if you can't model, or photoshop or script or whatever, don't be ashamed, don't wrap your game into darkness because it doesn't have dx11 support (exaggerating here), but focus on what you can do like think of a imaginative or funny story and characters. Putting some notes into the game or have some voice-overs play is not thaaat hard. There are just too many "bla bla bla underground facility, bla bla bla, people turned into zombies, bla bla bla, you're humanities last hope." kind of games. And then there was the horror-game competition. Right. As if we don't have enough pitch-black games already. I mean these were good games, but it's enough already. I'm at a point that I would prefer games that only use stock-media as along as I can at least see something. So my point is, don't try to do Modern Warfare 3, but focus on what you can do. Get the basics right. That's usually enough to make a decent game.

PS. And yes, I'm working on a game. But since I'm doing it alone and I'm also a beginner in most aspects of gamemaking it will take at least another two-three months till I can present it. And I won't do a work-in-progress section. I don't want it to become another dead thread in case real life gets in the way or I abandon it.

Tissues - The footprint of the lonely man
xplosys
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 01:36
You know what I think is worse than people who don't put enough unique ideas and storylines in their games? People who say they were drinking when they posted. Is that supposed to impress the kiddies?

It's an old discussion and common sense tells you to do the best you can in all areas of the game, but thanks for the insight. If you have any examples for us, please do show them.

Brian.

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Caveman1985
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 03:07
Okay, since my last post seems to be on the ferryman’s boat to Hades, I’ll have to write it again. (if not, and this becomes a doublepost, I am very sorry. It was not my intention) First of all, Wolf & xplosys, if you are tired of discussing this topic, just don’t. I very much respect your work and achievements, but if you don’t care about this topic, leave it be and let it fade into oblivion for all I care. I am just tired of seeing pitchblack games again and again that fill up the showcase board. And as if we didn’t have enough of them, we start a horror competition to encourage even more of these kind of games. Don’t get me wrong. Those were some excellent games. But it’s enough already. I’ve had enough of all these “bla bla bla underground facility, bla bla bla, people turning into zombies, bla bla bla, you’re humanities last hope… bla bla bla”, kind of games. To all beginners out there: I’d like to be able to see the game I’m playing for a change. Don’t be ashamed of your games’ graphics and please don’t hide it behind a shroud of darkness. I’d rather have an ugly game that I can see, than an ugly game, that I cannot see. Yes, there are some very impressive games out there. I was awed by the “Alpha Project” demo, for example. But those are exceptions. Let’s face it: most of us don’t know how to script, how to model or photoshop. I am among them. But that’s okay. Let’s accept that and focus on what we can do: writing an imaginative, maybe funny story and characters. Putting some notes or voiceovers into a game is not thaaaat difficult. All I’m asking is that people, instead of desperately trying to achieve good graphics focus their energy on story and characters. Even the best graphics are forgotten after 5 minutes of gametime, but memorable characters stay with you forever. And yes, I’m the Escapist kind of gamer, as Bugsy would put it
But maybe I’m completely wrong. That’s why I started this thread. To get to know YOUR opinions and maybe change mine.
I’m working on a game right now. I don’t know if y’all like the story or the characters or the game. But it will be something different. I won’t do a WIP section though, because I don’t want it to become a dead thread if real life should get in the way and I abandon it. Also I’m working on it alone so it will take at least another two to three months.
PS. @darkjames hahaha, no, but you know, what I’m trying to say. Actually, I’d rather consider myself to be from the past
PS2. @xplosys: drinking game idea: watch “Saving Private Ryan” and take a shot every time somebody gets shot. You won’t survive the battle of normandy

favorite websites: www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net & cracked.com
Hamburger
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 04:19
Quote: "I don't give a rat's ass about graphics"


Me neither, but a lot of people do nowadays.

Quote: "a majority of the userbase here are simply younger members that are just eager to start making a game and shoot some zombehs."


Thats call of duty's fault (never liked that game)
Kravenwolf
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 04:40
Quote: "Thats call of duty's fault "


There were millions of zombie game fans out there long before Call of Duty came along with Nazi Zombies...

Kravenwolf

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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 04:57
Quote: "There were millions of zombie game fans out there long before Call of Duty came along with Nazi Zombies...

"


I guess your right about that.

I just don't like the fact that there are about a billion other zombie video games on the market either.
Kravenwolf
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 05:41 Edited at: 13th Apr 2011 05:43
Quote: "I just don't like the fact that there are about a billion other zombie video games on the market"


I don't have any problem having such a wide selection of zombie games to chose from; being a zombie fan myself. It would be pretty inconvenient if all we had to chose from when we wanted to kill a zombie or two was Left 4 Dead or Left 4 Dead 2.

In any case, you could apply your same 'issue' to just about any genera; not just zombie games. For example; for every new zombie title we get, not far behind is yet another unoriginal and generic first person online shooter; oozing mediocrity while falling considerablly far behind the Call of Duty franchise.

Kravenwolf

Caveman1985
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 07:48
Are we talking Zombie games now? Fine!
(1) First of all anybody that wants to do another zombie game maybe should read the following article: http://www.cracked.com/article_18683_7-scientific-reasons-zombie-outbreak-would-fail-quickly.html
(2) Even though there a billion and one zombie games out there you still can make the story more interesting than an average Left for Dead or Resident Evil clone. Take the fpsc game "Time Phase" for example. As others have pointed out, it may have some logical flaws but combining time travel and zombie apocalypse is something new (at least for me) and that made the game interesting to me. Because of that I have a hard time not liking the game, even tough it lagged on my PC and I don't care much about it's genre and level design.
And that's why for me story and characters are more important than that. Or as Maddox put it in '04: "Remember when it was okay for a video game to not have convex volumetric fog rendering and bilinear interpolated textures to be fun? Since when did it become acceptable for 30% of your system's resources to be devoted to rendering shadows, atmospheric scattering, ambient light effects, and all this other superfluous bullsh*t that game coders keep adding to their engines so they can win some imaginary pissing contest?" (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=video_games"

PS. About "Call of Duty". I didn't want to like it and I didn't at first. The story lacks humanity or "soul" and the gameplay is not better than "Moorhuhn" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idqch3SU6gw&feature=related). But in the end it was better than I expected. But of course it doesn't come close to "Duty Calls" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QuE36_hZuE)!!!

favorite websites: www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net & cracked.com
Kravenwolf
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 08:48 Edited at: 13th Apr 2011 08:56
Tempting...alright, I'll play along. I need a break from the editor for a few minutes anyway.


(1)

Quote: "First of all anybody that wants to do another zombie game maybe should read the following article"


I don't get it. Are you trying to say that because a video game idea is unrealistic in the real world, developers should scrap that concept and move onto something more realistic? Resident Evil is replaced with, "Stuck in Rush Hour Traffic on the way to Work". And Halo becomes, "Paying the Electric Bill: 3 Days Overdue Edition."

The real world is boring...most of the time. Video games are what people turn to when they want to do something they can't do in the real world. And again, your issue doesn't only apply to zombie games. I doubt Call of Duty would have sold as well as it did if there wasn't any respawn...at all. None. When your character dies just once, either in single or multiplayer mode; that's it...the game ends, and you can no longer play.


(2)

Quote: " you still can make the story more interesting than an average Left for Dead or Resident Evil clone."


Left 4 Dead wasn't really intended to be a story-driven game. It was more or less a zombie shoot 'em up. So, you can't really say that a game here following that same principal is lacking what it was never intended to have (Sidenote: even without that captivating storyline; L4D still sold several millions of copies around the world, and became one of the most popular titles in the genra).


Quote: "that made the game interesting to me. "
Quote: "]I have a hard time not liking the game"

Quote: "And that's why for me story and characters are more important than that."


This is really what it all boils down to. Personal preference. Nothing more. You like the story, and don't care much about the graphics. That's great. You like this game but not that one. And that's also fine. Just keep in mind; the only people that you're going to get to agree to your opinions are the ones that share the same. And your tastes are no more wrong or right than the next gamer who has a problem with the games that you think are gold.


PS. Your PS statement sort of contridicts your standing principal in this thread.

Kravenowlf

Caveman1985
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 09:36
Quote: ""Are you trying to say that because a video game idea is unrealistic in the real world, developers should scrap that concept and move onto something more realistic?""

No, I never said that. Let's remain in the Zombie setting. If you think about the whole concept or maybe even read that article you can conclude, that the standart Zombie outbreak stories don't make a lot of sense, but they are repeated over and over again in similar fashion. I think that's a perfect situation. You don't have to scrap your Zombie game because it's unrealistic, just put 1% of the effort you put into the graphics into the storyline and give the whole Zombie concept a unique twist. Writing a story and characters doesn't require modelling or photoshop skills so everybody can do it (or at least try it) and it has so much more impact on a game than that killer 2048 pixel bump-mapped, specular-mapped (...) uber-texture.
But you're right it's just personal preference. >I< am personally tired of playing one clone game after the other set in dark hallways where I can't see 5 feet in front of me with exchangable characters and stories that I don't care about, because the creator didn't care about them. Just make sure your textures look realistic enough, you have that hyper-realistic rifle in the game with every bolt in the right place and don't forget to add ironsight. I mean, you can't have a good game without ironsight, right? Who cares about story or characters? Nobody, that's why we forgot who Shakespeare was and teach Dan Brown in school, right? Oh wait...

Quote: "Just keep in mind; the only people that you're going to get to agree to your opinions are the ones that share the same."

Yes, and I was hoping to find out if there are some people like that here. I mean, if you like mindless unimaginative shooters good for you. You got a buttload of them to choose from. I just would like to see (fpsc) games improve in a not graphic related manner. But then again, I also love Shakespeare so maybe I am a dying minority.

favorite websites: www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net & cracked.com
Wolf
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 17:55
Quote: "I just would like to see (fpsc) games improve in a not graphic related manner. But then again, I also love Shakespeare so maybe I am a dying minority."


Which is what I'm working on since months...

Flatlander is probably giving his RPG Mod a comeback which will add a lot of new possibilities to FPSC and improve it a lot.

Cyborg Art has recently released a whole modelpack bringin interactive objects and scripted puzzles to a new level

Rolfy Is working on an Adventure featuring a point and click system

TheStoryteller01 has released a massive script pack to help beginners adding story elements to their games.

I am working on a medieval adventure featuring multiple choice dialogues, an inventory and puzzle based gameplay.

You say you like Shakespeare? Classic literature? Meaningful poetry?

You can compare literature to fpsc. (sort of) there are a butload of uninspired trash-novels on the market (loads of 'em are even about zombies ) but also those few bestsellers you might be interested in.



-Wolf

God Helps the Beast in Me!
Kravenwolf
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 21:41
Quote: "No, I never said that."


You said look at the article that explains why a zombie apocolypse is illogical to occur in the real world, and then said look at the video game concept as it doesn't make a lot of sense based off off of that real world scenario. Unless I misinterpreted something, I think my assumption was fairly appropriate.


Quote: "If you think about the whole concept the standart Zombie outbreak stories don't make a lot of sense"


As I said the first time, video games are not real life; they don't have to make perfect scientific sense to be enjoyable. Break down just about any video game concept or idea and just about all of them become illogical. Real combat is nothing like Call of Duty. Teleportation is impossible for living organisms; as is time travel.


Quote: "they are repeated over and over again in similar fashion."


As I said the first time, the same can be said about any other genera out there.


Quote: "just put 1% of the effort you put into the graphics into the storyline and give the whole Zombie concept a unique twist. "


That really wouldn't make much of a difference if you stand by your earlier statements about the genera being repeated over and over again. Sure, you can change the setting, maybe explain why the outbreak started with an off the wall and original explaination; but it's all leading up to the same point anyway where the player will be alone in an isolated setting overrun with infected and has to make it out alive. Maybe change the zombie type from undead to infected. Still, more or less the same, right?

Same with First Person Shooters, for reference. Put the player in Vietnam, Iraq, or right here in the US; call him a SEAL, a Marine, or a Beret; tell him that terrorists are going to collect bombs to blow up our nation, or kidnap our President, or release a deadly chemical agent in the skies. Either way, the player has to kill, kill, kill! So come on; what's the difference, really?


Quote: "just put 1% of the effort you put into the graphics "


Quote: "has so much more impact on a game than that killer 2048 pixel bump-mapped, specular-mapped (...) uber-texture."


This puzzles me a bit if you're referring to the WIP section here specifically (which your OP indicated), as the majority of WIP games in that board do not have any form of world/full screen shaders applied to them. They're not using any killer, Cryis shaming, processor killing visual effects, so it's not exactly like anyone there is saying; 'to hell with the story, my levels must be sexy and that's all that matters!'

And the few developers here that have throw in some visual eye candey, are once again, the more seasoned members that are also developing a more in-depth story background, and added gameplay mechanics.



Quote: ">I< am personally tired of playing one clone game after the other set in dark hallways where I can't see 5 feet in front of me with exchangable characters and stories that I don't care about, because the creator didn't care about them."



Then don't download those games anymore? Or even better; make your own game, and do it "the right way"! Show us how it's done! After all of this, I would very much enjoy seeing a WIP from you here that demonstrates this captivating, and innovate storywork firsthand. A piece that seperates your work from all of the other same old same old zombie shoot em ups on the board. I eagerly await (and expect) this new era of FPSC gaming



Quote: "Yes, and I was hoping to find out if there are some people like that here. "


There are obviously a large majority of users here that appreciate story. But, a lot of gamers these days appreciate the best of both worlds. And considering you are sifting through the Work in Progress board, consider the possibility the work is still in progress; and the storywork is still to come.


Quote: "I mean, if you like mindless unimaginative shooters good for you. "


And if you like absolutely nothing but story, read a book.


Kravenwolf

AJ Schaeffer
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Posted: 14th Apr 2011 01:29
Agreed ^^^

Making someone's day a little better because of one of my models means a lot to me.
Caveman1985
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Posted: 14th Apr 2011 01:45
@ Wolf

Thanks for that list. I didn’t know about half of these projects. They sound promising and I’m looking forward to seeing what people will make of it. However I’m afraid that only the most seasoned FPSC Users will use them in the long run. It’s just too much effort for the average Joe. I mean somebody who’s too lazy to put more than 5 minutes of thinking into their storyline will certainly not spend hours on implenting difficult scripts or thinking about intriguing puzzles or the like. But I’m certainly looking forward to the few quality games these projects will spawn. I just doubt they will lead to an overall increase in quality. The guys who already create great games will make even better ones. Everybody else… let’s just say I see a lot more dark hallways and pitch black screenshots coming our way

@ Kravenwolf
Quote: "Either way, the player has to kill, kill, kill! So come on; what's the difference, really?” "

If we compared, say, Serious Sam and Half-Life 2. Are you saying there is no difference? Both are FPS, both are about the player killing, killing, killing. But they are worlds apart. Half-Life is giving you a good reason to do all that killing. The good story and characters make you want to find out how the story will progress. It’s motivating. That’s why I don’t understand why there is not more emphasis on this in amateur games.
I totally understand why the big companies produce games with shallow storylines. All the eye- and ear-candy, all the ads cost a lot of money so they have to aim at the international market. Thus to make sure John Boy, Ivan and Tetsuo get the same amount of fun out of their game they have to dumb it down so that everybody understands it. Evil aliens that kill everybody is pretty universal language.
Indi producers know they can’t compare graphically to the big guys so they focus on their strengths, that which is comparatively cheap and can make all the difference: gameplay and story.
And for us amateurs: we really don’t have to care about how many people play our games so why don’t we try to create something more unique or personal.
Sometimes I think it’s due to the fathers of this genre. If you look at the amateur adventure games many of them try to be cartoony and funny and somehow mimic Monkey Island. Needless to say most of them fail terribly. And the FPS role models seem to be Doom, Call of Duty and Left for Dead. Why not try something the big guys would not attempt anymore, like, I don’t know, a funny FPS. (because humour is not international but can be very specific). Maybe if the first FPS games had been more intellectually challenging we would discuss Proust now instead of discussing the pros and cons of making game-stories that have more thought put into them than afternoon tv?

Quote: "“Show us how it's done”"

Okay, first of all, by now I cannot expect an objective review from you anymore. And second, are you implying I shouldn’t critize other peoples work just because I maybe cannot create something better? If that’s what you want we won’t be able to critize politicians, athletes, movies, songs, tv shows, video games etc. anymore. Everybody, let’s just take each other by the hands and dance around in circles and pretend everything is perfect. I guess that’s how they put a man on the moon, right?
I have worked at a video game store for a few years and I’m surprised that people like you, who are adult and experienced in game making, seem to have the same standart than the 10 year old turkish boys that came into the store saying something like “woah, look at the graphics! That gotte be the bestest game evaaa!”

If I want to play an action-packed, graphically awesome shooter, i can buy one of the recent ones. No reason to go to FPSC for that. That's why I would like to see more shooters whith a little more thought put into them. Which is something the commercial shooters don't do. It is only a suggestion and I guess I must be one evil person for asking people to put a little more effort into the writing part of game creation.

favorite websites: www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net & cracked.com
AJ Schaeffer
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Posted: 14th Apr 2011 01:51
So making a game with good graphics takes no thought or effort?

Making someone's day a little better because of one of my models means a lot to me.
Kravenwolf
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Posted: 14th Apr 2011 02:06 Edited at: 14th Apr 2011 02:41
Quote: "Okay, first of all, by now I cannot expect an objective review from you anymore."


And why is that? Because I simply asked to see an FPS Creator game work in progress by someone frequenting the FPS Creator boards? Because I thought it would be interesting and enjoyable to see this actual idealistic game concept of yours transformed into a reality? Silly me.


Quote: "are you implying I shouldn’t critize other peoples work just because I maybe cannot create something better?"


Nope. I simply provided you with two solutions for your current dilema. This one;

"I am personally tired of playing one clone game after the other set in dark hallways..."


Quote: "let’s just take each other by the hands and dance around in circles and pretend everything is perfect."


Sounds good to me. Ignorance is bliss, after all.


Quote: "I guess that’s how they put a man on the moon, right?"


Nope. NASA pulled that one off with constant irrelevant opinionated bickering, disagreement, and sarcasm.


Quote: "I’m surprised that people like you, who are adult and experienced in game making, seem to have the same standart than the 10 year old turkish boys that came into the store saying something like “woah, look at the graphics! That gotte be the bestest game evaaa!”"


Colorful assumption. But I'd stay away from those, as you know what they say about the people that make them. In any case, one of my favorite games to this day is Silent Hill 2. Far from the 'bestest' graphics by today's standards. Good story though. But, I also enjoy the occasional mindless shooter when I'm in the mood. Like Nazi Zombies. I play games that I enjoy. It's as simple as that. I'm certainly not going to limit myself to a certain criteria when it comes playing games that I enjoy, if that's what you're expecting me to say.

As of right now, I don't see much of a difference from those 10 year old turkish boys coming into your store and saying "“woah, look at the graphics! That gotte be the bestest game evaaa!”, to a group of adult gamers walking in and saying, "whoa listen to that storyline! That's gotta be the bestest game evaa!"

But you're right. Everyone should have the exact same opinion as you otherwise they're a 10 year old turkish boy (ouch, by the way).


Quote: "It is only a suggestion and I guess I must be one evil person for asking people to put a little more effort into the writing part of game creation."


Okay then.

Kravenwolf

Nomad Soul
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Posted: 14th Apr 2011 02:08
Genre has nothing to do with how good a game is.

Caveman1985
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Posted: 14th Apr 2011 03:10
Quote: "But, I also enjoy the occasional mindless shooter when I'm in the mood."

You know, I totally agree with You here. For example, I enjoy the movie "Transformers" just as much as "Kings Speech" or "Jane Eyre". Just on a different level. I'm not saying every game should have a nobelprize-worthy story. My suggestion boils down to this: If somebody is a beginner in FPSC, they can focus on story to make their game a little more unique. If somebody is more able in FPSC, I would ask them to put just 1% of their energy into story and characters to give the game that extra something.

Quote: "Nazi Zombies"

Only if they are riding dinosaurs! But it's a good example. Why always Nazi Zombies? Why not an army of Mao-loyal communists for a change? They killed thrice as many people, you know.

Quote: "Nope. NASA pulled that one off with constant irrelevant opinionated bickering, disagreement, and sarcasm."

Now was that irony or sarcasm on your part? I always mix them up.

Quote: "Everyone should have the exact same opinion as you"
Finally somebody understands!

About the review thing- I just get the feeling that, if a post a game here now, you will be uber-critical just to show my that my mouth writes cheques my body can't cash, you know. I may misjudge you here. But I also said, I won't post a WIP thread because I don't want it to become another forum cadaver if I don't finish it.

Kind regards, Caveman

favorite websites: www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net & cracked.com
Anigma
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Posted: 15th Apr 2011 16:33
Quote: "So making a game with good graphics takes no thought or effort?"


In a manner of speaking, yes. Take the new model packs and segments we have now with the custom shaders and built in AI. If you have the money to spend, you can create a great looking game in no time at all where you just run around mindlessly shooting things from level to level to level. I could whip something like that together in a weekend. FPSC really makes it easy to create Generic Zombie Shooter #1,312,265. 90% of the work is already done! Make the same game in DBPro over a weekend - now that'd be something.

Taking it further, if you really have money to burn, you can license a "real" game engine like Crytek and create Generic Zombie Shooter #1,312,265 with destructible environments, advanced AI, real time physics, first and 3rd person controls, simulated sunlight, real time shadows, etc, etc, etc, again over a weekend or maybe, if you really wanted it to look flashy, two weekends. It really is that easy - IF you have the money (and I wish, wish, wish I did because that engine is SWEET - have you SEEN the sandbox editor? Wow...).

I think that was Caveman's point - since FPSC makes it so easy to create a typical no-brainer shoot-em up, that's mainly what you'll see from it's users. I personally don't see anything wrong with that as that's the type of game I enjoy making and playing - I do enough thinking at work, thank you - but I can see it from his point of view as well. Fortunately, as Wolf pointed out, there are a few users among us who have evolved their games beyond this and that's one of the reasons why I think FPSC is great despite all it's quirks and limitations - you can make your game as simple or complex as you want. Make a mindless shooter or a real brainbender of a puzzle game or anything in between. It's entirely up to you.

Well, I've rambled long enough. I'm at work at the moment so I need to log off of this forum and look busy.
Design Runner
15
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Location: In my own little world.
Posted: 15th Apr 2011 22:34
Make a game like that over a weekend in Crytek? Yes, you have the most amazing sandbox editor, but you still need to program everything. Its very much the same as doing it in DBP, but with an editor
pre-made. Good luck doing THAT in a weekend, or two, or 8.... I mean come on....

The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog
Kravenwolf
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Location: Silent Hill
Posted: 15th Apr 2011 23:35
Quote: "So making a game with good graphics takes no thought or effort?"


Quote: "In a manner of speaking, yes. "


No, not really. Again, it depends on the individual that you're looking at. Not all of us are restricted to using model packs and an unmodded engine. Some of us spend several hours, days, weeks, or months creating custom 3D assets, tweaking shader values, and so on to get the level looking just right. Far from effortless and unplanned.

Saying that a game with good graphics take no thought or effort, "in a matter of speaking", is the same thing as saying that the story takes no effort, or the programming/scripting takes no effort if you're just going to buy assets or pay someone else to do all of the work for you. But even then, it still takes a degree of effort on your behalf as the producer, rather than the developer.


Quote: "you can license a "real" game engine like Crytek and create Generic Zombie Shooter #1,312,265 with destructible environments, advanced AI, real time physics, first and 3rd person controls, simulated sunlight, real time shadows, etc, etc, etc, again over a weekend or maybe, if you really wanted it to look flashy, two weekends. It really is that easy if you have the money "


... O______________o


Kravenwolf

Delusional Games
15
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Location: Serbia, Sometimes Finland
Posted: 15th Apr 2011 23:36 Edited at: 17th Apr 2011 13:10
REEDITED
This is going by the road of argument.
So I`m done.

Cheers

My paragon is not on the poster, its in the mirror.
Poloflece
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Location: Australia
Posted: 16th Apr 2011 06:24
Should I go get the fire extinguisher?

IMO home front failed as a game because they had focused way too much on the story and not the realistic (I don't mind ho realistic a game is) "what if?" resistance style gameplay they had promised.


Rust Pack WIP here http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=178788&b=24
Caveman1985
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Location: Germany
Posted: 16th Apr 2011 13:41
Quote: "You cant force the people to be different."


Hi! Maybe I didn't emphasize it enough but I was merely asking people to pay more attention to story not telling them. Because I personally like a good story and strong characters in a game. If it came across as some kind of demand or whatever I'm sorry. In the end English is not my mother tongue.
I also just found a related arcticle on gamespot about storytelling. So for those of you, who are interested, here's the link: http://www.gamespot.com/features/6308734/index.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=picks&tag=picks%3Btitle%3B3

Kind regards, Caveman

favorite websites: www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net & cracked.com
Red Eye
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Posted: 16th Apr 2011 14:01 Edited at: 16th Apr 2011 14:08
Quote: "PS. I don't want to diss anyone. If I was to aggressive right now, I had one too many Vodka Energies! "


Love these comments...

Quote: "I dont want to diss anyone... but... you suck."


As far as I can see on your Profile, you aint experienced at all. So please learn something and after that you will realize that what alot of experienced people on these forums do, is extremly difficult for what you can do now. So... get smarter, and after that come back.

You are better off asking questions, and learning, other than trowing away useless unconstructive comments.

And in all of the threads same as this one, I have seen a returning paradox:

- You say Indie Developers can't create games like Crysis.

So let's see:

Definition Indie Development:
Quote: "Independent video game development is the process of creating indie video games without the financial support of a video game publisher."
- Wikipedia

First line of wikipedia on Crysis:
Quote: "Crysis is a science fiction first-person shooter video game developed by Crytek (Frankfurt, Germany), published by Electronic Arts for Microsoft Windows, and released in November 2007. It is the first game of a trilogy."


Aaah... So what can we conclude:

You can't compare Indie Developers(5 to 15 people (and sometimes more)) with large firms.

In the future I hope mods will lock these threads.

Poloflece
16
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Location: Australia
Posted: 16th Apr 2011 15:00
Why are you telling us what to make.. We can make our own games, good graphics look... Well good.I agree that the focus should should of course be on gameplay but it'sthe developers choice. I think that future updates should focus on gameplay aspects like terrain (actual fully working terrain) and other essential fps elements (But I still think the work the people working on it are doing an amazing job).


Rust Pack WIP here http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=178788&b=24
Northern
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Location: Brazil
Posted: 17th Apr 2011 09:07
Hello all,

Wow! people you have opened heavy fire on the Caveman1985's point of view.

If someone has already studied a little about Psychology knows that nobody can win an argument, because as the discussion becomes
stronger, the individual points of view will become stronger also, so no one will win the debate at all. Take easy guys, this is just a forum not a arena. Relaxe people!


Now my opinion about this thread:

I do not particularly like games with zombies, nasty vampires or somethings like that, also I do not criticize those who enjoy this genre of video game, but if do you like zombies games then go ahead and have fun, because that's what the games are for, creating moments of fun and entertainment for players.


I also agree that there are too much zombies games out there set in dark places, and I think the reason for that might be just to create a tense and mysterious atmosphere, after all they are horror game genre. If you disagree about excessive dark scenes pictures, check out the screenshots in the TGC Gallery, and you will see several of them out there.


What about hyper-realistic textures are very impressive in the gameplay, but the big question is: could you make one or several levels in the FPSC loaded with textures and shaders with 4096 pixels plus AI's and a lot of entities in scene, with all the performance issues that the FPSC has at the moment.

It would be possible to FPSC engine maintain 60 frames (standard frame rate nowadays in the moderns games) all the time in the game? It would not be too much expensive for the game engine to render those graphics and shaders?


One of my favorite games was Postal 2 Share the Pain because it was a first person shooter, very funny, controversial, with a lot of puzzles, good soundtrack , weirds characters, and funny from the beginning to the end of the game. Great game! . A little violent in the opinion of some people but the world is violent, in fact very violent just look around and you will see violence in everywhere, after all the world is not so pacific like some people may think.


Another very good game, game of the year awards (sorry but do not remember the year) was No One Lives Forever 01 (NOLF 01) by
Monolith Productions, great game (Cate Archer, do you remember that character? Unforgetable!), another example of Half Life 1 Game of the Year Awards by Sierra Studios, also both did not have no high resolution textures or characters with high resolution textures, but all had one thing in common: great fun and player immersion with its immersive plot or story.

Another strong point for the player immersion in the game is the soundtrack. Low quality sounds could ruin a game with good graphics and great game script as well.


Unfortunatelly I think that do not exist a cake receipt for how to make a Game fo the Year Awards, but if exist any, please I would appreciate to know about that.


I think if you can make a game that provides entertainment (fun and immersive) for your customers target then you will are on the tracks for the success, regardless of the genre of your game. How to do that? Sorry I do not know and I looking for still.


Have fun and thank you for reading!

Regards.

Northern
Red Eye
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Posted: 17th Apr 2011 12:53
Quote: "If someone has already studied a little about Psychology knows that nobody can win an argument, because as the discussion becomes
stronger, the individual points of view will become stronger also, so no one will win the debate at all. Take easy guys, this is just a forum not a arena. Relaxe people!"


The individual points might get stronger. But if more people agree with somebody, but not with the other. That somebody totally wins the arena fight.



Kravenwolf
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Location: Silent Hill
Posted: 17th Apr 2011 14:44
Quote: "If someone has already studied a little about Psychology knows that nobody can win an argument, because as the discussion becomes stronger, the individual points of view will become stronger also, so no one will win the debate at all."


I think that person should have studied a bit more Debates are won all the time whether it be on a school debate team, or in the real world. When the other party concedes (usually due to indisputable factual evidence presented on behalf of the other side that supports their standing); the debate is over and that side can be declared the winner. I'm sure you've even experienced this at one point or another at some point in your life.

In any case, arguments such as these are unlikey to end until both parties recognize they're disputing nothing more than personal preferences, and then realize doing so is just running around in circles.

For example; "my favorite color is black. I win!". "No, my favorite color is is Green. I win!" Or more appropriately; "Games with stories are better than games with awesome graphics and mindless shooting. I win." "Nope. Games with nonstop zombie killing action are better than dull, story-driven games that just drag on and on and on developing the characters and the plotline; with little to no action in between. I win."

This is why I refuse to write a ten paragraph essay detailing my own personal preferences as to why I enjoy the games that I do, over the games the other guy does. However, I will do my best to explain to the other party why the users here that have games that lack a compelling storyline aren't anymore "wrong" than the games that do. To that, I say, "Too much story fetish not enough eye candy."

Kravenwolf

Kerrby
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Location: Australia mate.
Posted: 17th Apr 2011 15:11
Quote: "
IMO home front failed as a game because they had focused way too much on the story and not the realistic (I don't mind ho realistic a game is) "what if?" resistance style gameplay they had promised."


Homefront failed because it tried to be the new COD.


WizMod Developer.
Northern
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Location: Brazil
Posted: 17th Apr 2011 16:32
Quote: "For example; "my favorite color is black. I win!". "No, my favorite color is is Green. I win!" Or more appropriately; "Games with stories are better than games with awesome graphics and mindless shooting. I win." "Nope. Games with nonstop zombie killing action are better than dull, story-driven games that just drag on and on and on developing the characters and the plotline; with little to no action in between. I win." "


Hello everyone,

That's just it!

Great explanation and example Kravenwolf , you have summarized the issue brilliantly. Thank you!

Cheers.

Northern
xplosys
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Playing: FPSC Multiplayer Games
Posted: 17th Apr 2011 19:19
Doom (1993) was a lot of fun. After a hard days work there is no better relaxation than grabbing the ole double barrel and blowing people to bits. How often did I find myself repeatedly shooting them even after they were dead? Did he just twitch? BOOM!

OK, enough about my mental instability.

After a while I found myself, as I always do, tired of the same old run-and-gun. I wanted to explore this environment and just for a little while become immersed in this foreign world. Even back then when Doom was state of the art (if it could ever have been considered so) the graphics were poor at best. Hard as I might try, I could never quite be fooled into thinking I was in there. The seldom changing environment of acute right angles and bland colors was just too boring to convince me.

Today we have Doom 3. Now when I get tired of the run-and-gun, I can take the time to immerse myself in the immensely improved graphics of its world. I find myself amused by the little spider-looking robot that leads me from point A to point B and I take the time to interact with other dynamic features. The time spent in this game has increase to at least double.

Now what if the game has puzzles I must solve and different paths or endings that I can effect by my playing decisions? After all, isn't re-playability the mark for which developers strive? Does innovation increase re-playability? Sure, but so do great graphics and even just blowing people to bits.

Brian.

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